MovieChat Forums > Training Day (2001) Discussion > At what point did Alanzo decide to kill ...

At what point did Alanzo decide to kill Jake?

posted 12 years ago by rollerblader2
42 replies | jump to latest

Pardon me for asking this question, since I think it's been asked before (though I had trouble accessing some of the threads)

The theories I've seen are:
1) He decides to have him killed right after Roger was killed but *before* giving his speech to Jake in the car after the murder. Evidence for that theory is that apparently you can hear Alanzo saying on the phone, right when they are willing out the injured officer "make sure you clean up that tub."
Now, if that theory is correct, why not just go with Paul's idea and have Jake killed at Roger's? Nothing happened after that, and before the "tub" comment on the phone, to make him change his mind. All I can think of is that it's somehow better for Alanzo if Jake is killed somewhere else other than the crime scene. But I don't know why that would be.

2) He decides to have him killed only after his speech in the car, after Roger's. Up to that point, he's still considering keeping Jake alive. But we see nothing that tells us why he would change his mind between them talking the car and arriving at the Latinos.

3) Another theory was that he was planning on killing him from the very beginning. (This theory is also consistent with the "tub" comment on the phone) But that still begs the question of why he needed the Latino gang, rather than just going with Paul's plan of having Jake killed at Roger's.

Theories 1 and 3 raise the question of, Why give the speech at all? What purpose does it serve Alanzo? One commenter suggested that the reason is that he needed Jake to go give a statement to the DAs office, and that he did so *after* Roger's. Once giving the statement, Alanzo didn't need him any longer and could go to have him killed. That's an interesting theory -- but the problem with it is that we don't see anything suggesting that Jake stopped at the DAs office before being taken to the Latino gang. (That would have been really useful information -- watching Jake being willing to make a false report would be watching him cross the line in a big way, and, if that was meant to happen, you'd think the director would want us to see that.)

Thoughts? Thanks!

[–] J_Howlett1886 12 years ago

Killing Jake at Roger's would have raised too much of a fuss. If an Officer was killed Alonzo wouldn't have been able to just leave like he did. It was easier for the Latinos to do it.

[–] Bernnard_Black 12 years ago

Alonzo had it mind from the beginning that he might have to kill Jake, if it came to that. He made that clear when he told Jake he'd been planning the events of the day all week. As to when he finally decided he had to do it, it was after Jake refused to take the money from Roger. At that point, he was a liability to Alonzo's plan because he might have went to internal affairs. Alonzo had him smoke that PCP, true, but that might not have held Jake back, given that knew who the tainted pot came from (Alonzo pointed the kid out and named him), and B) he could get the Sandman's wife to testify that Alonzo used a fake warrant to rob her house. It's enough to cast doubt on Alonzo's team and get them watched...and Alonzo didn't want that. So he he confirmed with Smiley that Jake would be killed.

Thing is, he really didn't want to have to; I think he genuinely liked Jake and wanted him on his team, especially after he got to spend the time with him.

Here's to the health of Cardinal Puff.

[–] rollerblader2 12 years ago

OK, but then why not just take Paul/Dr Dre's idea of killing Jake at Roger's? It would seem simpler. The way Alanzo does it, he has to gain Jake's trust -- even after the killing -- to go along with him to Smiley's. Seems he's taking a greater risk, that Jake would finally bail after Roger's, and that it would be simpler to just have him killed right then and there. I don't see what he gains by waiting to get to Smiley's.

[–] Bernnard_Black 12 years ago

Dunno, other than his position. I have no really good "in story" reason, but I can think of a few possibilities:

- If they wanted Jake to be shot coming through the door, they'd have to get him up near the door; otherwise, he might have bled on the sofa and blown their story.

- It's possible that Alonzo just prefers to be as careful as possible and not have his own men shoot each other. If he can order/ask them to shoot Jake for not going along with a plan, they might not be too happy about going along with his plans in the future.

- Having an officer killed at the scene might have raised much more suspicion or a stronger investigation of the incident. By having it look fairly "clean" with one cop injured and one perp dead, they avoid too many questions. If Jake was killed AND the other guy wounded, it raises some questions about their operation...questions Alonzo would rather not answer. Having him killed by Mexican gang-bangers is, I assume, easier to answer.

The truth is, it was just a part of the story and we have to accept it.

Here's to the health of Cardinal Puff.

[–] koffeenkreame41-1 10 years ago

Good points.

"I am the ultimate badass, you do not wanna `*beep*` wit me!"- Hudson in Aliens.

[–] rollerblader2 12 years ago

hmmm. Maybe. But there was already quite a fuss with one officer wounded, and with Roger killed. Not sure that Alanzo would have had to stay any longer. Anyway, now he's got to spend time trying to gain Jake's confidence back (with his speech in the car about how he could make detective), just so he'll go with him to Smiley's to be killed. Doesn't really make sense to me.
(I still liked the movie, but that part is kind of frustrating)

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] jason_75 12 years ago

Yeah I think Alonzo gave him the talk to read how he was going to react. When he was done talking, Jake's attitude didn't change and Alonzo went ahead with the plan.

[–] MaximusXXX 12 years ago

Definitely when Jake pointed the gun at Alonzo.

But honestly? If Jake had just taken the money and kept quiet, he wouldn't have been setup.

Those foolish enough to move from canada to america increase the average I.Q. of both countries

[–] Sinister23 12 years ago

It definitely happened in Rogers house. But three things happened there:

1) The money. Would Jake take it or not.

But why are so many people sure that Alfonso decided to kill Jake due to him refusing to take the money? Jake earlier on that day beat up two guys who tried to rape a girl. Ethical that was the right decision and Alfonso seemed to be impressed by Jake from that point on. When Jake refused to take the money, it was once again an ethical correct decision.

2) Alfonso gives Jake another chance. He tells him to shoot Rogers, but Jake again goes with the ethical correct decision. He doesn't kill Rogers.

3) Alfonso himself kills Rogers, but he wants to put the blame on Jake.
Jake refuses once again and of course everything changes at this point - he treatens Alfonso with a gun, Alfonso tells him that he planned it all week.

I think Alfonso even calculated that reaction by Jake into his game plan, that's why he offered Jake to kill Rogers in the first place.

--------

Now forget no.2. Nobody expected Jake to kill Rogers, probably not Alfonso himself really.

But no.1 and no.3 are very interesting. What IF Jake had taken the money? Would Alfonso still try to put the blame on Jake?
If so, then Jake would've been toast anyway. Regardless if he took the money or not.

In my opinon Jake would've gotten away if he refused to take the money, refused to kill Rogers, BUT accepted to take the blame for the killing of Rogers. That's what it came down to.

Alfonso gave Jake three tests within 10 minutes and I guess you can say that Jake failed all three.

[–] MaximusXXX 12 years ago

I would have totally taken the money.

Stupid, stupid move.

Those foolish enough to move from canada to america increase the average I.Q. of both countries

[–] spladow 12 years ago

Alonzo decided to kill Hoyt the instant he was assigned to be his "partner". Alonzo was a dirty cop--the dirtiest cop--and he didn't need a squeaky clean new partner to get in the way of his corruption. When Hoyt shows up at the coffee shop in the morning (remember, this movie takes place all in one day), Alonzo had already been planning how to get rid of him. If that meant killing him, so be it.

Here is why. Alonzo was in serious trouble with the Russians from Vegas before Hoyt ever showed up. He already had to deal with the problem of killing one of their guys and reneging on some huge football bets. Hoyt stood in the way of Alonzo's normal mode of operation (which was acting like an arch criminal under color of law), so he decided to use him to get what he needed-- which was money and an alibi. He had already been planning to kill Roger to get the money he knew was hidden under the house (likely because he helped put it there as Roger was probably a retired or disgraced cop). He didn't need Hoyt to carry out his plan, but since he couldn't shake him, he put him (and his death) into the mix.

The plan went like this: 1) Make sure Roger was at home and relaxed all day; 2) Get a street dealer to give up the Sandman (whom Alonzo had busted, knew was in jail, and had a stash of cash) so he would have a reason to search his house; 3) Get an address for the Sandman, go search it to find the money he knew was there; 4) Use the cash to pay off the other supervisor level cops to back him on the falsified sworn statements he needed to secure his warrant for Roger; 5) Use his usual crew of shooters to go dig up the cash at Roger's place and kill him in the process by calling it a bust; 6) Use his cut of the money from Roger's to pay off the Russians and save his sorry life until he *beep* up again (which he would because he was cloaked in the aura of arrogant invincible immunity that permeates cops like him).

He kept giving Hoyt chances to be corrupt, but Hoyt always chose the good side of the Faustian bargains as presented. Once Alonzo saw that Hoyt was a Boy Scout, he became a liability because everyone on the payoff chain would turn on Alonzo if he didn't get Hoyt to shape up one way or another. If that happened he would be more *beep* up than if the Russians caught him.

So in Alonzo's mind, Hoyt was dead when he called him to meet at the coffeeshop.

I made it Ma...TOP OF THE WORLD!!!

[–] Sinister23 12 years ago

@ spladow - You're beeing contradictory. You say that Alfonzo already had made up his mind before he even met Hoyt.

But you also say that he kept giving Hoyt chances to be corrupt.

So he didn't really had made up his mind before he met, talked, heard, saw, and finally decided.

Liston to the audio commentary of the DVD. The director says that Alfonso probably even considered Hoyt to become his main man, because he was smarter and more capable then the other guys (the ones who were helping Alfonso at Rogers house along Hoyt).
He even tells Hoyt that he has the magic eye.

You just see black and white though. He wasn't bull**ting Hoyt nonstop.

[–] HowYaLikeDemApplesWill 8 years ago

I tend to agree with your take, and felt the same that Alonzo planned to kill Jake from the jump.

In fact, when Jake was telling to story of his DUI bust in the coffee shop, I felt that Alonzo already knew the story, and Jake had inadvertently busted one of Alonzo's drug dealer contacts.

And of course Roger had to die, since he could roll over on Alonzo...

Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

[–] DjokerFan 8 years ago

Referring to the scene where Jake refuses to smoke the PCP/weed. Is the following out of the realm of possibility:

Alonzo: I don't want you in my unit. Get out of my car, rookie.
*Jake gets out of car*
Movie over

If Alonzo wanted to kill Jake from the beginning, he gave Jake one hell of an out considering they had only known each other maybe 1-2 hours at that point.

As corrupt as Alonzo was, I refuse to believe that he was setting Jake up to be killed from the beginning. I do believe, however, that Alonzo was setting Jake up to be fired and possibly thrown in jail because Alonzo was so desperate to pay the Russians that he was willing to let his rookie be the fall guy for all of his corrupt activity that he engaged in to raise money for his debt. That's what making Jake smoke the PCP was all about. After Jake eventually gave in to smoking the PCP, Alonzo know that anything illegal or even suspicious that they did from now on could be pinned on Jake, for example testifying that Jake caused the mess in Sandman's house.

When Alonzo and the "team" went to raid Roger's house and kill him, Alonzo's plan was to testify that he and his team were going to Roger's house to arrest Roger. In the process of raiding his house for drugs, the new guy who had PCP in his system shot and killed Roger, which was witnessed by five decorated officers who did not have PCP in their systems. Part of this plan included convincing Jake that the homicide would be seen as justifiable by including in the group's recounting of the events that Roger fired shots at Jeff. Who knows what they would have actually said to account for Jeff being wounded.

Alonzo figured that Jake was better off dead than in jail when Jake 1) refused to take his share of the money, 2) refused to kill Roger, and 3) refused to take responsibility for killing Roger. Not so much because Jake was a liability to the testimony, but because Jake was just pissing Alonzo off at that point, to the point where Alonzo was just about ready to take care of Jake himself. When Jake turned Alonzo's shotgun on him, that was when Alonzo decided that it's better off that everyone leaves Roger's house alive, and he has a group of friends on the other side of town who will assist in his damage control.

[–] HowYaLikeDemApplesWill 8 years ago

Ehhh, agree to disagree....after all, unless the writer comes out and says what his intent was, all us cats can do is speculate, which is part of the fun of a good movie after all.

But to one of your points where I think would tend to discount your hypothesis:

"I do believe, however, that Alonzo was setting Jake up to be fired and possibly thrown in jail because Alonzo was so desperate to pay the Russians that he was willing to let his rookie be the fall guy for all of his corrupt activity that he engaged in to raise money for his debt."

I highly doubt Jake could take the fall for Alonzo's misdeeds, after working with him for one day.

Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it?

[–] DjokerFan 8 years ago

Of course he could. Alonzo was very adamant about this:

"the investigators are gonna want to pull a tube of your blood to check for intoxicants, what are they gonna find, Jake? Do the math, you've been smoking PCP all day, haven't you? Remember?.........You talk that crazy *beep* I'll make sure your blood gets to the lab. You wanna walk your little baby nuts around the block you won't make it to the corner, but if you're cool, IF you're cool, you're a hero"

Alonzo made it very clear that the purpose of making Jake smoke PCP was to blackmail him into being responsible for Alonzo's misdeeds and use that as leverage over Jake at any moment that he acted out of line.

[–] SausagePourVous 11 years ago

He gives the speech so that are let inside his mind,get to see Alonzo wanting to justify his awful actions with conviction,committing murder for drugmoney. He is still trying to see himself as"one off the good cops",that it was necessary evil." What you think we gonna do,roll up in a black and blue,slap the cuffs on him? That´s a highroller,dog." He reallý was Rogers friend for those years(And Roger even said he´s help with the russians,talk about dealing with a snake) and like the true sociopath he had become or was,the reason for getting the money for the russians suddenly is ridding L.A of it´s biggest(and what apeears to be
nicest and coolest) druglord.

He decides to have him killed after seeing Jake won´t join his insane hit squad...hence the talk on the phone....and telling Jake what he should tell the DA,just that line,gives Hoyt a false sense of security. That or improvisation or he had planned to kill the rookie who gets let in on details regarding false search warrants and murder etc.,a temporary partner in crime who is in the dark so the whole thing rúns smoothly and if Jake talks,he´s busted for dope in his blood...but Alonzo saw he was an honest cop to the bone and that threat wouldn´t keep him from talking....

I think he decided it after the murder on Roger when he knew Jake wasn´t 100% onboard or even 13%. But the4 speech is for Alonzos sake,not Jake. He is justifyimg being necessary evil,doing what had to be dobne and you get the feeling that he means all of that,he did right. He could be talking to a mirror. The hit was ordered.

[–] NatalieFan 10 years ago

The hit on roger was only "ordered" because he TOLD the three wise men that he knew someone that they could "tax"(aka seize only "3mil" instead of 4mil, keep 1mil). They gave him the go ahead. As much as Alonzo wants to pretend he was just following orders, he knows he murdered Roger both by pulling the trigger and by suggesting the hit.

[–] csuperman 11 years ago

He had decided to kill Jake the moment he refused to take the money. The conversation over the phone was real. Seeing how capable Jake was in the ally way, saving the girl, had Alonzo think of him as an extremely valuable team member, if corruptible, but a formidable enemy if otherwise.

Enjoy your egg whites.

[–] bigmember25 11 years ago

He knew that he might have to kill Jake the whole time. He didn't officially decide to follow through with it until after the speech he gave him in the car. He never really wanted to because he saw potential in Jake and wanted him as part of his crew. During the speech he knew that Jake had too much dirt on him and was too ethical to change. He didn't go through with Paul's plan for a number of reasons. For one they hadn't planned it out. For two, they needed Jake to be alive because he was the one who "killed" Roger. Alonzo knew that he could just dump Jake on the Latinos if it came down to it. Since he had that option there was no reason to complicate and potentially screw up his plans for heisting Roger by a last minute hard to explain head shot to a cop.

[–] brokencd-855-445922 11 years ago

Major spoiler in the title. You must be new to movie forums. *shakes head*

[–] McQueen1980 11 years ago

alonzo doesnt kill jake so its not a spoiler and the movie is 12 yrs old

[–] lukekingjohnson 11 years ago

Alonzo was a lowdown ruthless vato. He was going to kill Jake that exact way because that was part of his plan, He had been planning it all week after all. His undoing was underestimating Jake, which from what I saw, appeared to be the person who he thought would be the least trouble.
Jakes morals saved him. If he hadn't saved that girl from being raped he would've never of left Smileys house.
I think Alonzo played his plan out exactly as he had it drawn up on the chalk board. If he had took on a more corrupt officer, not Jake, then he would have succeeded.

[–] BrohmaBull007 11 years ago

OP, I choose #3. Alonzo had all his plans set in motion to pay off the Russians but then the department stuck him with some rookie.

Jake was a means to an end. He needed someone clean to pin the illegal bust and murder of Roger on. Alonzo or one of his boys cant take that hit. He had Jake sized up from the beginning all he needed to do was keep Jake from walking away before Roger's death. After that, Jake was expendable.

So I say Alonzo planned to kill him from the second he was assigned the rookie.

----
Jordan > Kobe

[–] badge-3 11 years ago

BrohmaBull, I strongly disagree.

Alonzo knew from the very beginning that he MAY have to kill him but did not officialy decide to do so until Jake turned the gun on Alonzo at Roger's house.

I will try to explain in depth how this is true and will use facts from the movie to support this.

At the beginning of the movie when they are driving after having breakfast, Alonzo tells Jake "You could be number 6 if you act right". This statement supports the idea that if Jake had shown and proved himself to be more ruthless or in Alonzo's words, " a wolf and not a sheep", He would have allowed Jake to join the team with Mark, Paul and Tim.

Alonzo sees potential in Jake when Jake looks at Alonzo and says "I will do whatever you want me to do." This is exactly what Alonzo wants to hear and gives him a green light to begin testing Jake's vulnerability by forcing him to smoke PCP. (And of course to blackmail him later if necessary). When Jake first refuses to smoke the PCP, Alonzo demands Jake to get out of the car. If Jake had left, this would be the end of it. Jake had not witnessed anything at this point and they both knew if Jake, who was a rookie, had complained of being held at gunpoint by Alonzo he would be laughed at and probably fired. However when Jake gives in to smoking the PCP, Alonzo sees this as potential for Jake to be influenced by him and still become part of the team.

The second test and opportunity for Jake to escape the situation comes after the quick neighborhood shootout outside of Sandman's house. Alonzo has a quick discussion with Jake on the side of the highway and once again gives him the opportunity to walk away. Nothing at this point has been done which would be worth having Jake killed for. Again, Jake gives in to Alonzo's words and gets back into ths car. Little does he know, this was his last chance to walk away alive.
**(Also keep in mind that Jake has PCP in his system at this point which explains why Alonzo is not threatened by the possibility of Jake walking away and reporting Alonzo. Alonzo knows only Jake will be negatively effected if he decides to do so by having his blood sent to the lab. The viewers are made aware of this later on.)**

Now lets talk about the armed robbery at Roger's house. This is the ultimate test of Jake's ruthlessness. First, he denies taking the money. However this is not enough reason for Alonzo to have Jake killed although it does raise red flags for Alonzo. Second, Jake refuses to shoot Roger. This was yet another test for Jake that Alonzo was expectinb him to fail since he already had many concerns about him being able to handle the job. Again, this is not Alonzo's signal to have Jake killed. The last and final straw is when Jake refuses to take blame for the death of Roger and turns the gun on Alonzo. At this point it is very clear that Jake will NOT be one of Alonzo's pets nor give into his authority. He is way too much of a liability and can not be trusted. He has also witnessed way too much at this point to walk away alive. Alonzo's now knows he has to get rid of Jake. "I've been planning this all week, son." Little does Jake know this includes Alonzo's plot to have Jake killed if he can't be trusted. The threat to have Jake's blood sent to the lab no longer holds any weight and Alonzo knows it would not be enough if Jake decides to confess what really happened. He only makes this threat because he knows it will shut Jake up and prevent him from talking long enough until he can get him to Smiley's house.

The reason why Alonzo rejects Paul's suggestion to kill Jake on the spot is clear. Soon after sweet talking Jake from the couch he says "In 10 seconds this place will be overrun by blue suits." This was not nearly enough time to kill Jake, set up a believable crime scene as well as having 5 different officers giving matching and consistent statements. There is also no need because Alonzo has other plans for Jake as we hear him confirm the hit on Jake when he says to Smiley "make sure that bath tub is cleaned".

The conversation in the car is more for Alonzo's own sake rather than Jake's. The hit in Jake has already been made but Alonzo still feels the need to justify his own actions and the reason he is the way he is. It is also possible that he still needed Jake to give his statement to the D.A before having him killed. This is suggested by the unseen time lapse and nightfall by the time they arrive at Smiley's. Alonzo knew if him and his crew were going to blame a rookie on killing Roger, it may raise suspicion having him killed before giving a statement.

So to answer your question OP, the decision to go through with having Jake killed was at Roger's house. Had Jake taken the money, shot Roger and/or willingly took the blame for Roger's death, he would have no reason to get rid of him whether he was a rookie or not. In the end it all came down to how ruthless Jake would turn out to be.

For weeks, Alonzo had plans for Jake to become part of the team as well as get rid of him... All depending on what kind of man Jake turned out to be.

Alonzo was a sociopath and did not care for Jake on a personal level at all. In fact there is nothing to suggest he cared about anyone other than his youngest son.

[–] zeromein (2) 4 years ago

This is the most thorough and in my opinion accurate answer here. Kudos.