MovieChat Forums > Merlin (1998) Discussion > the REAL villian

the REAL villian

posted 17 years ago by furyoftheturtles
50 replies | jump to latest

While watching the movie last night something occured to me...

Merlin is the real bad guy in the film

Think about it *spoilers below*

Queen Mab is dying due to Christianity erasing the people's belief in her. So she creates Merlin to get people to believe in her and keep her alive. And during the birth Merlin's human mother dies. She would have died anyway, but Merlin blames her for his mothers death.

Then later in the story Aunty A (I think it was) gets sick, and when Mab askes her if she's sick she says "I'm not sick, I'm dying"
But when she dies Merlin blames her for that too.

So Merlin goes on this huge campaign to kill Mab, and Mab just does what she needs to do to live, a fair bit of which is helping people to get what they want (love, beauty, etc.) Of course, she kills people too, but there are only a couple of people...actually, I can only remember her actually killing one person...that was kind of unnecessary, but she was trying to stop Mab from taking Mordred away.

And Merlin does all this stuff to kill her and live HIS ideal life while totally denying Mab hers...

In fact, when Mab died, I felt kind of sad. Well, it was sad, with everyone just turning their backs on her and ignoring her until she disappeared...and she did actually love Merlin, just he blamed her for everything that went wrong...

So yeah, I think Merlin was the real villain in the film. Anyone agree?

[–] Tabitha Lenox 15 years ago

Interesting. I made a similar argument once for the wicked witch of Oz. Dorothy kills her sister, involuntarily manslaughter, then accepts stolen property from Glinda.

Mab was only trying to survive. Who can hold that against her? And that ungrateful child of hers defies her wishes.

[–] FutureNos 15 years ago

The way I see it Merlin basically facilitated Lady Igraine's rape. So to me that was one of the most villainous acts in the the entire film!

[–] swc11-48-550133 10 years ago

That is true, he did allow the rape to occur but I don't think it was one of the most villainous acts because he was trying to prevent the death of a whole village of people. So, maybe you believe that her rape is more villainous that the possible death of 100 people, what if it was in the 1700-1800 and he hoped the rape would prevent the possible genocide of the American Indians or even more recent and he was trying to prevent the Holocaust?

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[–] LeelooLost 13 years ago

Actually, after his aunt dies, Merlin swears to kill Mab, but he doesn't do anything really... He just stop using magic, and lives in the forest and all..

It's only when she hurts Nimue that he starts using magic to hurt her and kill her...

[–] haafket 13 years ago

I see no real villian, only deep characters which are a common trait to an epic story. Compare it with say Spartacus (1960) or many other great epics. Just because there is a protagonist and an antagonist does not mean someone has to be better or worse that the other.

That is the real reason why this is such a great story, and due to the nature of it being in the vein of a fairytale I fail to see the ending as saucy as that is what usually makes a fairytale. But had it been a regular historic epic a more grim ending (such as in Excalibur) would have been better. :)

[–] TheFatDruidofNacyl 13 years ago

None of the main characters are really innocent in the movie. Merlin included but I do consider Queen Mab the greater bad.

I have a feeling Queen Mab before Christianity was far more loving and caring to her followers. It may be the lack of followers that made her heart cold as it was.

Queen Mab could of saved the mother since it was one of her followers that was doing something for her. Queen Mab didn't care as long as she got Merlin.

The Aunt that took care of Merlin and cared for him, Queen Mab could of helped as well, but she let her anger get the best of her.

I also noticed that Queen Mab didn't show actual love and affection for Merlin to have him care for her the way he cared for his Aunt. I can understand why he would have no real loyalty to her even without the people around him dying.

Queen Mab goes further still to try to kill off the one remaining women Merlin loves as a way to bring him back to her, but that only fuels his anger for her.

Queen Mab does show some feelings for Mordred but she is still using him for her own purpose. I do find it interesting that perhaps Merlin might of followed her if she showed him that kind of love and devotion growing up.

I do consider Queen Mab a tragic villain kind of like you might find in a Dracula type character. I don't find fault in why they are doing what they are doing, but instead find fault in their method of doing it.

Merlin is far from a saint and has shown selfish side as well.

Merlin did stop a war but at a great sacrifice to Lady Egrain. I am not sure if he could of stopped the war any other way with less casualties but it is still the same type of justification Queen Mab might use. In fact Queen Mab does something similar for her plan after.

Merlin did seek out revenge but he also wanted to help the people and he cared about those around him.

In the end I consider Queen Mab worse then Merlin.

Although perhaps the true Villain is Christianity, for if it was not for those darn Christians then she wouldn't of lost her followers, and the world might be a better place in the end. In fact if it was not for the search for the Holy Grail and for their own glory then Author would not of left a lonely wife to her sins.

This is not an attack on actual Christianity but just for the purposes of this story.

Edit: I also wanted to bring up how bad Queen Mab treated Frik her most loyal subject.

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[–] Dream_Demon 13 years ago

None of the main characters are really innocent in the movie. Merlin included but I do consider Queen Mab the greater bad.

This I agree with entirely.

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[–] PinkArrow 12 years ago

I do agree with you BlackKnightofNacyl, except for the fact that exactly from Christianity Merlin takes inspiration for his noble principles and for creating a better world where "justice had to be tempered with mercy", in a way of life based on harmony and peace (see the sequences about young Arthur's learning and about Guinevere's judgment, where Merlin quotes the holy Gospel). Camelot as a matter of fact is an utopic world, but still better than Mab's. We could say that Merlin embodies democracy against Mab's dictatorship.
(Sorry if some concepts may not sound quite clear, but English is not my mother tongue)

[–] PinkArrow 12 years ago

Really? That's why Merlin's character is so charming! ;oP
I don't agree *Spoilers below!*
The plot imho explains very well the difference between Queen Mab and Merlin.
The former is trying to re-establish the Old Ways in order to recreate a world ruled by magic, where human rights will be neglected. She wants to become the only master and she uses the others like objects to achieve her aim. Mab betrays and seduces everyone in order to take them to her selfish purposes. Every sin comes out from her: it's true that magic can neither create love (as Merlin tells Uther) nor save human beings from death, but it can influence human actions!
So Mab takes Merlin's mother and Aunty A to death in order to "let them die" and Merlin has got every right to blame her for this; Uther's madness falling in love with Igrayne is caused by Mab; Guinevere betrayal towards Arthur is incited by Mab; Lady Elaine's death is caused by Mab showing her Lancelot's betrayal with Guinevere; Arthur is seduced by his sister Morgan Le Fey in a magic plot organized by Frik and Mab; she kills Morgan Le Fey because she loves Mordred (who doesn't deserve love at all because of his natural cruelty) and wants him by hers; even if Mab doesn't kill directly, everyone dies because of her. Mab uses magic to manipulate everyone in order to achieve her final aim: dominate everyone at every time. Beauty and power she gives to Frik and Morgan Le Fey are deceptive and encourage them to follow her rules.
Merlin instead refuses to use magic because "Mab wants him to" in order to satisfy her selfish purposes. Merlin knows that magic powered by Mab will take humanity to slavery and always tries to create a new world, an alternative way of life where "justice can be tempered with mercy", love and harmony can lead to a better life in a better world. An utopic world, but better than Mab's and before Mordred comes to spoil everything, Camelot does work. Both Mab and Merlin are Machiavelli's fans ;oP as "end justifies means" for both of them, with the essential difference that Merlin pursues his aim on principles of justice and peace, while Mab is immoral and has often a double intention.
Merlin as a matter of fact makes many mistakes: he admits that he has always been "a bad judge of human beings, expecting too much of them". But as the Lady of the Lake tells him, he's half human and human side is the best part of him, even if it often leads him to some mistakes and misunderstandings.

Anyway: Merlin is a great TV movie, well done and well directed, with a great cast and special effects even better than some of nowadays! In this case I think everyone will agree with me! ;o)

[–] BoyWiththeGreenHair 11 years ago

My belief is that the average viewer will be meant to be at least somewhat sympathetic towards Mab and her plight until she deliberately alerts Lady Elaine about Lancelot's affair, subsequently causing her to die of a broken heart. That was just purely an act of spite that had no relevance to her fight against extinction. She could have allowed Elaine to remain ignorant of the adultery and there would have been little or no consequence unto her or her people.

That, and it marks her becoming outright abusive towards Frick, whereas before, even though she had always been pretty impatient and rude towards Frick, she had never physically harmed him for questioning her in such a manner. Its also pretty disgusting how, even before she murders Morgana, she makes it clear that she was using her from the start and would have been comfortable abandoning her and basically stealing her child from her.

[–] PinkArrow 11 years ago

Merlin and Mab are both extremely fascinating characters, also due to the splendid performances of Sam Neill and Miranda Richardson.
As I explained in my previous post, the difference between them is based on means and purposes.
Mab manipulates everyone from the beginning, influencing their actions to deceive or even kill them in order to achieve her aim. And even her target is immoral: she wants to dominate the world, while Merlin tries to create a better one.

[–] ciprianl 12 years ago

I believe that the real villain is the watery tart distributing swords.
Technically speaking, she's an arms dealer.

[–] PinkArrow 11 years ago

Excalibur is not the only sword in the plot. But it's THE sword, as a symbol of Good that destroys Evil.

[–] Strazdamonas 11 years ago

There were no heroes in this story. everyone was a villian.

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[–] noirgirl 10 years ago

The real villain is Nimue. Her unbelievable vanity gave Merlin a miserable lonely life, kept him at war, kept him constantly enraged and fighting Mab...If she had accepted her fate and not been so selfish, Merlin would have come out much better and done better.

[–] 10 years ago

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