I'm confused about something: How could the mother not know that Hortense was black. When she says she's never been with anyone black, she finally remembers. Was it too shameful for her to remember or was she raped and never knew who her assailant was? I couldn't understand that part of the movie.
shareShe thought it was another mans baby. She never looked at the child before they took it away. She says "I just couldn't".
Yeah, it's hard to catch everything sometimes.
I figured the same as you - perhaps it was a terrible incident (maybe being abused by an older person) that she had just blotted out of her mind.
Excellent film!
There is no indication that you need to go to the extreme of assuming it was a rape or anything sinister. In fact she'd be more likely to remember the incident had it been a rape. More likely, Cynthia was a bit promiscuous at an early age as she looked for love from anyone who would notice her. Perhaps she had a drunken one-time thing and never expected to become pregnant. She ended up assuming Hortense was another man's. There is also an indication when Cynthia gives advice to her daughter Roxanne that a condom isn't enough and that she should be on the pill as well.
shareI think the key to Hortense's father is in the party scene where she asks Cynthia something like "what about my father, was he a lovely man?" and Cynthia says "don't break my heart darling". That and the look of horrow on Cynthia's face when she slowly twigs why she has a black daughter, after first saying "I ain't never been with a black man", tell you all you need to know. It seems clear that something pretty horrible happened.
shareMaybe she has so much sex she cant rememmber who she slept with..
Come to my site rhonddavalleys.comvision2000.com
I quite agree no way was it rape.
The social services would have managed the meeting between the the daughter and the mother if there had been a rape.
they would not have allowed the child of rape just to turn up on here mothers door step. They would have arranged things through third partys , spoek to the mother them selves and so on.
'Work is the curse of the drinking classes' Oscar Wilde
"The social services wqould have managed the meeting between the daughter and the mother if there had been a rape"
That only works if Cynthia reported the rape to the police at the time and the man was prosecuted and convicted. Many (most?) rape cases are never actually reported, and something tells me the 16-year old version of Cynthia would not have reported it. Therefore what you say about the social services managing the meeting would not be the case.
For me, she probably was raped. That is the only explanation for why she wouldn't be able to tell the whole story, even at the end, when 'truth' is very much the order of the day. But of course we will never know. We will all have the element of doubt - and that's exactly what Mike Leigh wants. :-))
_____________
"Maybe I should go alone"
- Quint, Jaws.
[deleted]
It didn't even have to be forcible rape, just a guy being relentlessly persistent with an inexperienced girl until she reluctantly gave in. That probably didn't even "count" in her mind as having real sex, which made her dismiss him as the likely father of her baby later on.
If she was sixteen when she gave birth, it was statutory rape anyway. She might even have been only fifteen when Hortense (Elizabeth) was conceived. Her brother was right: "She never had enough love." But the ending is hopeful. The two young women seem guardedly happy about having a sister, and the circumstances surrounding their mother. But happy all the same.
No matter how many times I see this film it always touches me, and shows me something new about the characters and, by extension, all human beings. It's one of my very favorite movies; I love it!
Genetically, a white woman doesn't have to 'go with' a black man to have a chance of getting a black kid. It's one of those 1 in several million chances, but it can happen. Watch the film 'Human Stain' and you'll find a similar kind of story...
~ squodge ~
[deleted]
No, no, LC-coach, at the party Cynthia was finally explaining who Roxanne's father was. She still won't explain about the father of Hortense.
shareLC-coach is right. She did explain eventually that Hortense's father was an American medical student on holiday in England, and one day she went to see him and he was gone. We just watched this in my film class last Monday. I'm having rather a hard time tracking down a copy, too...most irritating. Excellent film.
I solemnly swear that I am up to no good.share
I have to disagree. Cynthia explains she was on holiday in Malaga not at home in England when she met the American who disappeared (went home). She says "I came down one day [from her hotel room] and he was gone."
Hortence then asks about her father at the party (cant remember the exact words), and Cynthia replied "Don't break me heart, darlin'"
Personally I think she was raped, blocked it out, and moved on. Possibly as a result of a rape she would have low self esteem and it could be a catalist for sleeping around. 6 weeks later she thinks she gets pregnant by some other guy and has dismissed the rapist as the father. Over time her initial assumptions will be reinforced in her own mind - thats just human nature.
I'm not sure about the medical student part. We know that Roxanne was born in August therefore Cynthia would have conceived in November. People tend not to go to Spain on holiday in November and medical students tend to be back at university in November. Perhaps I'm being too nitpicky after all it is the sentiment that is important and not precise facts.
shareCynthia's response, "don't break my heart darling!" could mean anything. She already had to confess to one daughter that she got pregnant by a man she hardly knew while he was on "holiday" from medical school. He never contacted her again obviously, so it appears he had a bit of fun and went back to his real life.
Perhaps she revealed enough about her sorted past for one day. Or it was a one night stand, who knows?
it was definately rape.
Jesus walked on ice.
A forced sexual encounter is implied in the first 15 minutes of the movie for Heaven's sake!
Maurice and Monica discuss what happened to "poor Cynthia" and how it has made Cynthia have a sad life.
Cynthia says her father sent here away to have the baby...and Maurice says he thought it was a boy who was given up for adoption.
when Hortense asks about her father in the cafe-- Cynthia says "don't break my heart, darlin'." Now come on, what does that tell you?
It can only be rape, because that would be shameful to Cynthia.
Cynthia says this again at the of the movie--when Hortense wants to know who her father is. Hortense's face tells it all.
Foreshadowing is used in the beginning scenes to tell us that something very bad happened to Cynthia and this is why she has had a sad life. It is not Roxanne being born out of wedlock, as she is very loved by M & M...
In my opinion, the movie intends for all of this to be confusing to the audience and consequently revelations about everyone come slowly.
Great movie.
Nina
when Hortense asks about her father in the cafe-- Cynthia says "don't break my heart, darlin'." Now come on, what does that tell you?
It can only be rape, because that would be shameful to Cynthia.
I was confused about this too. I think she just forgot or was ashamed of it. Maybe the point was it didn't matter who it was, I have no idea.
shareAt first she denies that Hortense could be her child on the grounds she had never been with a black man. Then she looks horrified as she remembers how this could have happened; the child was not born 6 weeks early like she had been told.
From this I assume she had thought the child had been fathered from a casual relationship, prior to which some incident had occured that she finds too distressing to discuss.
She twice refuses to tell Hortense details of her father. 1st in the cafe she says "you don't want to know" although Hortense clearly does; 2nd at the BBQ scene she becomes very distressed at the idea that he is a "nice man". Clearly he wasn't, and next to some of the confessions of the evening, it is notable that she is not able to open up and discuss this. Partly, perhaps, she does not want to dissapoint Hortense any further. But I also think there is an implication that she was, indeed, the child of a rape.
I agree with you -- the fact that she cannot talk about Hortense's father, even after everyone else (and her) spilling all kinds of secrets already, is very telling. She has never, in 21 years, told Roxanne about her father, and that night she came out with it... and you'd think she wouldn't have so much invested in keeping it from Hortense unless it was personally traumatic to herself. If it wasn't rape, then it had to be something close to it.
sharerape? no. There ws nothing in her file. socila services may have handled it quite differently
'poor cynthia' in the 70s a 15 year old girl getting pregant was a big deal. thee would be stigma, that is enough.
i sort of think he was a rogue, an older man prehaps that fooled her with tales of love then buggered off, that would be enough to make cynthia very upset as it was.
'Work is the curse of the drinking classes' Oscar Wilde
But if she had always been in complete denial that she had been raped (as the scene in the café would suggest) and believed Hortense was the child of another man - a casual one-night stand - there would be no reason for her to tell social services.
Plus, remember she was a pregnant 16 year old girl who was forced into having her baby in secret by her father. Why would she tell social services anything at all?
[deleted]
When a decision has been made to give up your child for adoption, it is not an uncommon practice for the mother to be blind-folded as she is having the baby. This practice is one such way to “distance” the mother from her new-born for fear of creating more emotional conflict and distress.
Otherwise, she would have known the colour of her child.
The “colour” of her child, hence the issue of “identity”, adds to the many confronting themes of the story.
By all accounts, it is an inspiring, honest and powerful story.
Best regards,
Joel
I just finished watching this (I saw it the first time in the theater 10 years ago) and it left me pretty wrecked, just staggeringly emotional performances from both Cynthia and Maurice, amazing stuff.
It certainly seemed like a rape was implied. In the scene in the cafe, Cynthia tells Hortense that she thought she'd been born 6 weeks' premature, but then, realizing what had actually happened 6 weeks earlier, she won't talk about Hortense's father.
The conversation at the barbeque about the American med student is definitely about Roxanne's father, not Hortense's.
Now it makes me want to check out all of Mike Leigh's stuff again...
I watched this film for the first time today and thought it was amazing. My conclusion was that she was raped by a masked stranger. Remember at that time the general consensus was that a rapist was the stereotypical stranger in a balaclava. In which case Cynthia wouldn't have seen his face. Also she may have thought, as was a common misconception (excuse the pun) that you couldn't get pregnant from having sex once with one person.
shareThat's an interesting point ie the whole misconception thing. Perhaps Cynthia had been a virgin before being raped (if that is what happened) and thought at the time that 'you can't get pregant the first time'. Maybe thats why she thought that Hortense had to be the child of somebody else she slept with 6 weeks after.
shareMy conclusion was that she was raped by a masked stranger. Remember at that time the general consensus was that a rapist was the stereotypical stranger in a balaclava. In which case Cynthia wouldn't have seen his face.Wow!