After watching this movie several times, I still don't understand how Guy decides to shoot Dawn and not Buddy. Clearly Guy thinks she's betrayed him, but what indication did he have that Buddy would cover for him?
Second Q: Can anyone define the relationship between Buddy and Guy at the very end? Are they willing partners in the cover-up, or holding each other hostage with their participation in a crime and the need for mutual silence?
I look forward to all your views.
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There's a lot of people in this thread who really don't understand this movie and don't get the ending at all. In reality the ending is almost the same as the ending of The Godfather. It is a story about a good guy (Guy) and his trip to success by way of shedding all his morals and ethics. He does shoot Dawn to further his career, and because he's finally admitted to himself what it is that he wants: to be successful in Hollywood, and he doesn't care who he has to stab in the back (or shoot in the front, in this case) to get there.
The whole movie he's been pretending he's a good guy, but if you watch the movie again the whole thing is a long series of compromises by Guy to get to this goal. When Dawn takes him out for drinks at the beginning of the movie she calls him on this even though it's just his first week on the job. He tells her he's a writer and she says "then why are you fetching coffee for Buddy Ackerman?" Guy acts appalled that she says this to him, but it's the truth. He really is substituting his talent and passion with "liberal amounts of ass kissing", as Dawn tells him. Over his year there Guy is faced with numerous times where he could have and should have resigned due to Buddy's torments, but he stayed because he was willing to sell out his dignity for success.
Eventually Guy snaps when he inadvertently hears Dawn say she's going to Buddy's house to sleep with him to further her career (or possibly to save Guy's job), and he decides to go take it out on Buddy. After torturing Buddy though, Buddy calls Guy on it by saying he could have left the job at any moment, and since he stayed he has no one to blame but himself, and this is true. When Dawn shows up, Buddy is telling Guy to shoot Dawn, but he's doing it without we, the audience, knowing that's what he's saying. But he's telling him that killing her is the only way to save himself, and if he doesn't do it, then Buddy has no sympathy for Guy. The reason it's the only way to save himself is because if Guy doesn't kill Dawn he'll only have bad choices: 1. untie Buddy and be arrested for kidnapping and battery or 2. kill Buddy and be arrested for murder (because how else could he explain it?). By killing Dawn, at Buddy's urging, Guy realizes they'll both pin Buddy's torture on Dawn, and paint Guy as the hero who killed her to rescue Buddy.
While this does make Guy somewhat beholden to Buddy, after Buddy corroborates his story, they are both partners in crime, and Buddy is now an accessory to murder by covering up the truth. Because of this, Guy is not still Buddy's assistant (just with a new title and more pay), but rather Guy is truly a fast rising executive because he's finally demonstrated to Buddy that he will do anything he can for his own success; and like Rex (Benicio Del Torro) says at the beginning of the movie, in Hollywood punching below the belt is not only accepted, it is rewarded.
At the end of the movie Guy is talking to Jack and telling him what he has learned, and how Jack needs to ask himself what it is that he really wants. While this seems like an innocuous question, what it really means is that if Jack wants to succeed, then that must take priority over everything else he wants, and he must be willing to sacrifice everything to get it, including morals, ethics and dignity. If instead Jack wants to preserve all of that more than he wants to succeed, then he should get out of the business. Clearly Jack doesn't fully understand all of this though, because he doesn't know the truth about Guy; and when he asks Guy if they can get dinner Guy tells him he can't because he has to wrap some Xmas presents. This is a reference back to when Buddy says he wasn't with his wife when she was murdered because he, Buddy, was wrapping Xmas presents for his boss a dozen years earlier. In other words, much like Michael Corelone at the end of the first Godfather movie, Guy has now fully committed himself to his pursuit of personal success, and is putting himself first with no hesitations or qualms.
I'm surprised this movie is not rated higher here on IMDB, but I think it is clearly because people just don't know what to make of the ending, or are unsure about it and thus don't like it. IMO it's one of the best endings of any movie in the last 20 years because it is so unexpected.
Thank you for helping me understand the ending!
shareWildYams - excellent explanation.
(fap fap fap)
I agree with almost all of this except for the fact that the writer/director specifically said Guy is essentially Buddy's assistant for life but with a better title.
shareYes robxthedrive they're forever tied together professionally. And personally, in loyalty over sharing a potentially damaging secret.
Guy is essentially Buddy's assistant for life but with a better title.
Yeah, that's what the ending is SUPPOSED to be about (pretty obviously), but it misfires because Guy has no reason to trust that Buddy will keep his part of the tacit 'pact'. I think that is what people are not getting.
There is no reason on earth that Buddy couldn't and wouldn't simply turn round and tell the police that it was Guy who tied him up, tortured him, and killed Dawn. What someone promises with a gun pointed at their head means nothing - show me a movie where the kidnap victim doesn't at some point promise not to incriminate their captor if they let them go (and Guy knows his movies). And even if Buddy were the most trustworthy of men, that is all his speech at the end inviting Guy to collusion amounts to - and Guy has not a shred of illusion as to just how cunning, vindictive and plain nasty a SOB he is actually dealing with. The idea that he would make that leap of faith, believe that Buddy will be genuinely so taken with the knowledge of just how completely Guy is willing to sell his soul, and with the idea of 'owning' him, is what doesn't ring true.
In fact Guy's only realistic option for getting out of the situation would be to kill both of them, and come up with some story that he either interrupted Dawn before or shortly after she killed Buddy, and then managed to get the gun and kill her, or she threatened both of them (but was mainly mad at and tortured only Buddy), before Guy escaped and killed her in self defence. Not great options, but a lot better than hoping the man you've just terrorised ad tortured for an hour or more will turnout not to want to see you go down for murder more than have you as his poodle for the foreseeable future. After all, spineless morally bankrupt poodles are ten a penny in their world. And with Buddy and Dawn both out of the way, he'd be the only one left standing to take the kudos for the film, and be best positioned to take Buddy's place professionally - and it would mean he truly had absorbed Buddy's lessons and example.
Pity, because apart from that lapse in credibility meaning the final twist didn't quite come off, it was a very fine movie.
Maybe, what 'shipperly-groom' suggested above as what should have been the ending, actually was. Maybe the cap-clad, bruised Buddy was an apparition visible only to Guy. Or else why does Jack(the former colleague to whom guy was talking in the end) does not react at all to seeing Buddy standing behind him, all silent and creepy like?
share
You nailed it.
Conceptually the idea of the ending works. The execution doesn't.
You cleared up the ending for me. I just finished watching the DVD and didn't know what interpertation to put on the ending.
share> I'm surprised this movie is not rated higher here on IMDB, but I think it is clearly because people just don't know what to make of the ending, or are unsure about it and thus don't like it.
I did not really like the movie. I got the ending, which seemed obvious to me, but Buddy was over the top and exaggerated (I've seen nasty done a lot more subtly in real life), and the whole thing was too simplistic. It would have made a good short. It was just way too drawn out. If it had not been that Kevin Spacey is so watchable, I would not have sat through it. As it is, I wish I hadn't because there was not any payoff for me.
Great summation. And it's interesting that two of best twist endings in the last 10 years were in movies involving Benicio Del Toro and Kevin Spacey. Swimming with Sharks and The Usual Suspects.
shareVery well written and commented.
But as shipperly-groom says in a comment below it does not add-up why Buddy coped with Guy to backup his story to the police. By covering up the truth he puts himself in a situation where he is an accessory to murder. That makes no sense at all. Why would Buddy choose to be a partner in crime? Specially after being tortured and humiliated by Guy?
I think that's the surprising ending, that Buddy did not tell the truth to the cops! It would have been a win-win situation for Buddy.
Instead I think the message of the movie is that Buddy chose to cover Guy because he finally realizes that Guy is like him and has what it takes to conquer the business. That was his way of Buddy recognizing Guy and putting him at the same level as himself. It is not the logical common choice but Buddy is not a "normal" common guy!
Great movie! If a movie keeps you thinking and wondering about it after an hour you saw it, it means it was a great movie. And its worth watching again to see things in perspective.
Got so much out of it! Kevin Spacey usually is a trademarking of a mind-blowing movie. I love almost every movie he did.
He is maybe in my opinion the most complete actor around these days.
P.s This movie surely rewarded him the part of Dave Harken in Horrible Bosses.
Ditto. Thanks for your take on the ending. And I agree now that it was the only way based on the progression of the movie to this outcome.
Thanks!!!
I wear my net \O^O/ to make sure I am seeing what others see.
Thanks for explaining the ending. I just watched this movie for the first and likely only time. The ending was different, and it sort of "made the movie" work in an odd way.
sharebasically guy turned into buddy.
a man with no heart and just out for money and power and dawn had to go cuz she was his heart, his conscience, so she had to go and he knew buddy would cover for him cuz he would understand and repesct his decision cuz it is what buddy would have done.
and i think it says in the movie what position guy has, i think he has buddy's old job and buddy moved on or somethin. i am fuzzy on that.
luv ya,
kdf
SMILE!
God Loves You.
I would agree with kdf.
Dawn has to go because she can't get Guy any further up the corporate ladder than he's already gone - as Buddy says, Dawn can sleep her way up (and has) but Guy can't - he has to fight tooth and nail for every advantage because that's how it is! With Dawn, Guy will always be an assistant in one way or another but with Buddy he can go further.
Love has nothong to do with it - it's the logical choice!
logic over love, how sad.
luv ya,
kdf
SMILE!
God Loves You.
in the end, guy has dawns old job. buddy stayed on the same rank. but one thing i was fuzzy on? what was the deal with the wind up toys? wasz it because of his wife? and did he find the killers? help me out
sharehmm don't ownthis one yet so i have no idea what you are talking about. sorry.
luv ya,
kdf
SMILE!
God Loves You.
I love the idea of the wind up toys. i think it gives buddy a human side among all the yelling and cursing and insults. i think they remind him of his wife, and how she was screwd (in the sense that she was murdered). and, maybe when he thinks of them, it's kind of like "when the world turns it's back on you, you turn your back on the world" kinda thing. human nature as well
"'Tain't what cha do, it's the way that cha do it!"
Didn't buddy mention something 'bout them in the ending? That they found the wind-up toys where his wife were raped. She supposed to wrap them or something.
shareBuddy was working late extremely late one evening "wrapping" Xmas gifts for his boss and he was unable to go Xmas shopping with his wife. When he arrived home that night he found a wind-up toy with a note attached from his wife. The note suggested that he not forget how to wind-down. Later of course, she was found murdered by car jackers. It was beer bottles that were found lying near/around her body.
shareoh wow i heard that i just forgot to think about it after i got all scared and excited later in the movie.
oh yeah.. *beep* .. interesting wind-down. HE STILL SHOULDNT HAVE SHOOTED HER!!!!!!!!!
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The thing with the wind up toys came from his wife, who had been killed. She'd bought them for him as a way of saying "sometimes you gotta need to unwind".
sharethis is really good to hear from you. i too was confused AND *beep* DISSAPOINTED THAT SHE DIDNT TELL HIM WHAT SHE WAS THERE FOR ACTUALLY.. IN BLUNTNESS. but now i understand it to the fullest extent. i saw buddy standing at the scene of the rape and i was like what?? but yeah he actually listened to guy.. and became him..
its so dissapointing because i loved the movie so much.. but then.. i guess i have to still love it. its just that it didnt go the way it was supposed to.
the type of job was awesome and i love.. uma and spacey was a dork but he was supposed to learn.. ahh the phone disconnected and he was talking about buddy to no-one why didnt spacy be a man and shoot guy..
anyways yeah good movie.. until the end i guess i have to still love it.. i dunno im so confused.
thanks for clearing up the ending.
yes, I too thought Guy got Buddy's job (not Buddy's assistant) and Buddy moved on
shareI think that at the start, Buddy is a typical bureaucratic Nazi flaunting his triumph of the will. At the end he is revealed as Faust to whom Guy (Mephistopheles) has sold his soul-he turns on Buddy who must offer to pay a higher price than vague words about future benefits for present endurance. The shock of the outrageously handsome Michelle Forbes getting blammed shows that Guy had it in him-he chooses BAD by killing GOOD. PS don't forget that it is an American film so the homoerotic "Buddy" relationship (geddit) has to be worked in somewhere. Note also that Michelle and Benicio del Toro are far less browbeaten than Guy as would anyone a bit older and more sussed about the difference between deeds and words. If Guy wasn't such easy meat he wouldn't have got the job-Probably by filling Buddy in at the interview. Oh er does that make me a Communist?
shareFilm School drop out? Dude you are looking way to deeply o this one. This is your opinion? It sounds like you almost believe your own rhetoric.(See I can use big words too) Now go get your Cliff's notes and plagarize someone else's work.
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you mean that wasnt uma thermon??? uh.. woops??
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Just brought this film on dvd, and it had a really good commentary by the director, he commented on the ending, saying that it's what he's most asked about, he says that in the industry traditonally after a year the assistant normally gets a promotion in another company or in there current company. He also says that producers and other bosses don't like there assistant's moving on, just after they have trained them, they don't want to go through the whole process again. And so many offer promotions which are merely titles a wage increase and a bit more respect. When really there still just the boses assistant. With Buddy and Guy, Buddy agreed to cover up that Guy shot Don, but only if he agreed to stay on in one of these apparent promotions and virtually be his assistant for the rest of his professional career, and that guy is trapped in a nightmare situation.
Go over it a couple of times in your head and it kind of makes sense.
Except it's said that he's an executive. That's SOME title to be handing out to a simple assistant.
shareyeah but thats so *beep* up he should killed Buddy. but the truth is none of the three could cover up a murder becuase there are detectives and police and ... there couldnt be any kind of cover up. question.. was the scene where Guy was standing outside with the police not the rape flashback.. only with him in that position
i just figured it was cuase it was day time and .. it seemed like that pulled over to the side of the road story that Buddy first told Guy.
i guess im just stupid.. although im usually pretty good at getting stories. i think i overwork my ideas sometimes. damnit. (haha cause im a sixteen year old with a really immature friend who's behind and doesent get movies at all.. and i have to help him.. i was just telling him the story to four brothers.. yet.. i missed a lot from this.)
Guy has given up on ideals: love, integrity, fairness.. He's been taught that love can't be trusted any more than business, and he's now decided to 'play by the rules.'
As for the Buddy/guy relationship, I think they're now just co-workers who appreciate each other's sacrifice and recognise each other's defeated position in the race up the ladder.
The wind up toys are a reference to the quote from Buddy's late wife: something to the effect of "you're not living if you never allow yourself to unwind"
I watched the directors commentary and he said that even though that Guy has a higher position than he originally did. He will still and always will be Buddy's assistant. Buddy got him that job and therefore he will forever be owing to him for it. It's a power-shift and Buddy regains the power.
I think Guy must have just shooted Dawn and then they came to a comprimise, I don't really understand how Guy assumed Buddy would cover for him.
say goodnight to the bad guy..
See, I viewed the ending alltogether differently. I tied in his reason for shooting Dawn because of what she did and said. Why was she at Buddy's house? To sleep with him? Why, so Guy wouldn't get fired. She was the one always telling Guy to stand up to Buddy, to tell Buddy to f'k off. So now she's caught in her lie, and Guy realizes she's been bullsh*tting him the whole time, that she never believed her own convictions. So now he's wondering if all of it is bullsh&t. Did she ever really like him or was she just using him like she's using Buddy (and Buddy's using her).
"I did this for you Guy," she says. "Isn't this what you wanted?"
"Yes," he says, "but not like this."
So by shooting her, he answers Buddy's Ultimate Question ... What do you really want?
Guy wants to make it, but on his own terms.
Also, the very ending ... I never saw it as a power move. I saw it as Guy earning Buddy's respect. Buddy realized that Guy had the mettle to stand up to him, while also doing whatever it took to get the job done. I also think it shows the endless progression of power in a corporate setting. Though Guy may still be under Buddy, Buddy in many ways acts toward his boss the way Guy acts toward him. And at the end, when Buddy is talking to his friend about figuring out what it is he really wants, he's passing on the baton to a new "generation" as it were.
Just my thoughts. Where's my penny?
I think he did it to further his career. By killing her, he and Buddy will get to keep the "Real Life" script all to themselves and get all the credit for bringing it to Keystone. Guy knew Buddy would not rat him out because of that. Great movie.
Téigh trasna ort féin
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everand
Ya I see it more or less that way.
My question about the ending is what the hell were they going to tell
the cops? They must report this to the police.
How would the girl get Buddy tied up without threatening him
with a gun as guy did?
so there would have to be two guns ...
but of course this is only a movie
so this is probably not the place to be logical
she tied him up.. oh man.. cool i didnt see the beginning.. damn.. that's cool but it only makes it worse.. now i need to go and get it on dvd and watch it.. and ill see all the cool extra's. i couldnt sleep and ended up watching a sunday night movie which just started. dang.. i missed that.
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To me, it seems that the ending shows just how much in control Buddy was over Guy. In order for his philosophy to be complete he had to kill Love itself. The death of his wife caused such an emotional disturbance in him that he attacked any form of weakness he saw. He viewed the love of his wife as his ultimate weakness, so in order to defeat that, he needed to destroy Love itself. Buddy had nothing to lose at the end of the film. His weakness was exposed to Guy. The ultimate initiation was the front line in the battle between Love and Greed. Love was sacrificed to perpetuate the lineage.
shareMaybe Buddy had killed his wife and made up the long neck beer bottle story.
Last line is Guy saying that he had to wrap Xmas presents.
So Buddy was saying "what do you want" and to "Do It".
I don't think he meant that he wanted to get himself shot, I think he
just wanted to have Guy be in the same boat(murderer)he was(hence the name Swimming With Sharks).
Now why you have to kill your women, I don't know, (maybe advancement because people feel sorry for you).
Maybe it was for the the movie rights, as previously stated.
It supposed to be one of those thinking movies, but doesn't quite work for me.
Spacey rocks as usual though.
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Excellent post. I think there indeed was a sick symbiosis that formed between Buddy and Guy. You described it well.
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