Here is what really happened to Ashton


For those who did not read the books and are puzzled by the plotholes (like: how did Ashton suddenly was in that brothel in "Heaven & Hell"), inconsistencies and other ridiculous changes from the books, here is what REALLY happened to Ashton and Huntoon, and other characters:

First, Ashton and Bent were NEVER lovers, though those monsters would have made perfect couple in cruelty.

After Ashton's scheme to murder Billy was foiled, Orry kicked her and Huntoon out of Mont Royal and the family. Ashton thought that in Richmond she would gain power, but her dreams were ruined at the social party when Huntoon refused to fawn upon Jeff Davis, and as a result his political career was over, even before it began. Later he got some lousi job at the Treasury, with no power or influence. At the same party, after Ashton told Huntoon exactly what she thought of him, he was approached by handsome and unscrupulous profiteer named Lamar Powell.

As the author comments, by introducing Powell to Ashton - Huntoon made one of the worst mistakes in his life. His former mistake was marrying the most despicable, heartless and sociopath bitch in South Carolina. Luckily for Billy, he discovered in time Ashton's true wicked nature and broke with her. Huntoon was not as lucky.

Powell offered Huntoon to invest in ship called "Water Witch" that would carry luxuries via the siege. Huntoon refused, partially because he noticed Ashton adoring Powell, and because he was against such profiteering and also due to Powell's questionable background. However, behind his back Ashton paid Powell the money he needed, and became his lover (she was NOT Bent's lover). Huntoon suspected that, and he was furious that Ashton invested their money in the ship, but spineless wimp as he was - Ashton gave him a lesson in humiliation.

The ship brought fortune to the Huntoons, but cost terrible price - the life of Judah, Cooper's son. When Cooper confronted Ashton about this, do you think she had any regret? Yeah, right. She was stunned momentarily, but was far more concerned about the ornaments which Cooper broke in his rage!

That alone should teach all of you who adore Ashton, for reasons I can't figure, how corrupt and pervert she was. Some priorities she had: when some whore scratched her face, Ashton felt as if worldwide catastrophe occurred. She had wept for hours over the bloody nail marks because "her body and her face were her chief assets, the weapons she used to get whatever she wanted" - that was much, much more than she wept when Billy dumped her. And when it comes to other people's lives, including those who never did Ashton any ill, she wouldn't shed even one single tear.

Powell proceeded to his next scheme: assassination of Davis and his government, and foundation of new confederation. Among the people he recruited were Bent and Huntoon.

Now, why would Huntoon join the schemes of the man with whom Ashton had an affair, as Huntoon suspected (correctly)? Because the poor fool believed that would gain Ashton's love and admiration. He should have known better.

Meanwhile, Bent met Ashton, and showed her the portrait of Madeline's mother, giving her secret she could use - and did use - against Orry.

Orry discovered the assassination scheme from Burdetta Halloran (Powell's ex-lover) and when he confronted Ashton about this in social party, she revealed in public that Madeline was octoroon and daughter of whore (no, she did NOT do it secretly without Orry's knowldge to force Madeline out of town). And to think Madeline helped Ashton to make an abortion in Book I, and in Book II persuaded Orry not to hand over Ashton and Huntoon to the authorities... yes, this is how wicked people repay kindness. What did Ashton gain from that? Nothing, except sadistic pleasure.

After Madeline's background was exposed, Orry got order from Davis to get Madeline out of Richmond. He considered ignoring the order, but realized Madeline would be treated as pariah, so reluctantly he persuade her to leave for Lehigh Station, and reluctantly she agreed. So she left to Lehigh Station - NOT to Charleston - without their child, presumably because they NEVER had any children (in chapter 84 of Book II it is implied that either or both of them are barren). That was the last time they saw each other.

BTW, Madeline never had any encounter with Bent (how lucky), and there never were any Rose Sinclair or that Rafe Beaudeen, in any of the books. From where the producers brought that... beyond me.

Orry foiled again the scheme when he confronted Ashton, Huntoon, Bent and Quincy at the warehouse: he beat Bent severely, and Bent fell out of window into the James River and disappeared. Orry assumed he was dead, but unfortunately he was not, as we find out in Book III. Instead of delivering Ashton and Huntoon to the authorities, as they deserved - Orry foolishly gave them opportunity to leave Richmond, and they did. Pity. Ashton deserved to be hanged. Later, due to Madeline's absence and his growing disgust of the government, Orry decided to leave his safe office and join the staff of George Pickett, and subsequently was killed in Petersburg lines by injured Union soldier to whom he wanted to help (Orry was NOT killed by Bent, and NOT in Book III).

Thus Ashton was indirectly responsible not only for her nephew's death, but to her brother's as well: if she had not revealed Madeline's background in public, Madeline would not have left Richmond, and perhaps she would have dissuade Orry from joining Pickett's staff.

Ashton and Huntoon reunited with Powell, and he proceeded with his plan of new confederation. He and Huntoon were going to Santa Fe, delivering large amount of gold (from gold mine in Virginia City, which Powell acquired after murdering the previous owner - his brother) through dangerous territory, while Ashton would travel to there in convenient way and wait for them. Before the journey, Ashton and Powell decided to dispose of Huntoon. Huntoon, aware of Ashton's cheating but unaware to his planned murder, gave Ashton a letter to be read only if something happened to him. On the way to Santa Fe, Powell murdered Huntoon. Only then Huntoon realized what a fool he was, believing that he could gain Ashton's love. He had better chance of becoming the king of England.

That was the miserable end of James Huntoon. As much as I loathed him in Book I, I felt sorry for him reading the second book: he was the battered husband in almost every aspect. Ashton did everything she could to abuse, insult and humiliate him (including viciously scorning him for his "performance" in bed), except beating him physically. If he hadn't been such a wimp, he would have divorced her long ago. Ashton never loved him, but just using him to gain power and influence.

Rest assure that Ashton NEVER asked for Huntoon's forgiveness, nor did he ever said something 'machoist' like "It's too late for that, Ashton".

However, justice was served very quickly: while Powell was overjoyed at his great "victory", indians attacked the caravan, and killed Powell and the waggoners. Only the guide Collins escaped. Ashton waited several weeks in vain for Powell, her money running out, and then she heard about the attack. She mourned for Powell, whom she loved (as if she was capable of something resembling love) more than any other man in her life, but thinking about the gold, she got over her grief very quickly. For Huntoon she felt no sorrow - then she remembered the letter he had given her. Very unpleasant surprise waited for her: Huntoon wrote that he knew about her affair with Powell. He chided her for mistreating him despite his love. To ensure she would not be rewarded for her adultery, he disinherited of all their money, including the goddamned money she gained from the "Water Witch" venture, which according to law was solely Huntoon's - a small retribution for all the wrongs she did to him.

Ashton was devastated when she realized her predicament: she was stuck in Santa Fe with very little money. Of course, she could write to Brett, Cooper or Madeline, asking for help, but she was too proud. She tried to find rich patron to support her, but there were none in Santa Fe. Since Ashton never bothered to learn to do anything useful or productive - unlike Brett, Madeline, Constance, Augusta and Willa - so used to get others to do things for her, she wound up in lousi brothel.

I hope this explains, for those who did not read the books, that plothole in the TV series "Heaven & Hell", how suddenly Ashton was in that brothel, right after she pushed Bent into the river, after he killed Orry (which was not at all what happened).

Ashton spent quite long time - but not long enough - in that brothel, calling herself "Brett", thinking it is a fine joke. Ha-ha-ha. That was not funny at all - it was infantile and pathetic. "It would have been an even better one if her sweet, prissy sister knew about it". When the guide Collins arrived at the brothel, Ashton tried to persuade him take her away from Santa Fe, but she failed.

What a pity that, with the help of Willard Fenway, Ashton escaped the brothel. She deserved to stay there for the rest of her life. During escape, she murdered Luis, the owner's brother-in-law. As Fenway said, it was completely unnecessary: Luis could not stop them. Ashton did it as retribution for "large and small slurs, insults and unkindnesses".

That foul murder appalled Fenway, and made him realize what kind of monster was his angel-faced companion. "He knew the little Carolina tart was stone-hearted, but he'd never imagine she would go so far as to slay a helpless man". Later, he firmly warned Ashton that "If you ever do something that low again, we're quits". That made Ashton realize that Fenway was no weakling, unlike Huntoon.

It took Ashton 8 months and lot of scheming to obtain the money Fenway needed for his piano company: she slept with a banker for a loan, then slept with a records clerk for obtaining forged marriage certificate showing that she was Powell's wife, then married to Ezra Leaming - chief of claim office in Virginia City, who assisted her establishing her title to Powell's mine. After emptying the mine of the silver-bearing ore, she left Leaming, without bothering to divorce him. Then she invested the whole money in the piano company. It was sensational success, and they grew to be extremely wealthy.

Ashton could have been satisfied with her current life: she lived in luxury, had lovers (Fenway knew but did not mind). But the filthy bitch, wicked as ever, intended to take over Mont Royal and kick Madeline out. She was never the sentimental type - the only reason she wanted Mont Royal was to revenge herself on her family. Of course she never blamed herself for being kicked out of Mont Royal. Wicked people never take responsibility on their foul deeds and the results.

All those years, after Orry's death, Madeline has been through total hell, struggling to maintain Mont Royal, on the verge of bankruptcy, while being the prime target of the local KKK gang who murdered some of her friends. Neither Cooper nor George helped her. Despite everything, she managed to renovate the estate and turn it profitable. BTW, there was NEVER any "glorious" battle in Mont Royal against the KKK: Medaline and the others simply fled to the swamps.

Shortly after Ashton arrived at Charleston, she found Orry's death. How do you think she reacted? "She felt neither sorrow nor remorse, only more anger at her gaunt one-armed brother. His death cheated her of an important opportunity for reprisal, and she didn't like it".

Ashton nearly succeeded in her scheme: she purchased the land from Cooper anonymously, because she knew her brother would never sell her the land. Then she drove to Mont Royal, and delivered Madeline the eviction order, viciously taunting her for failing to behave like respectable while woman and opening school for black people. Madeline begged, but for no avail. As for the black people who worked and lived at Mont Royal: Ashton intended to kick them out too, or let them stay under conditions resembling slavery "they'll work all day for a cup and a crust".

Fortunately, Virgilia (no, she was NOT executed. In fact she became better person in Book III) foiled Ashton's scheme by forcing her to sign a deed which transfered the ownership of Month Royal to Hazard's of Pennsylvania, for a dollar and other considerations - under threat of throwing acid (actually, that was harmless well water) in her face. Ashton, fearing for her beauty - her ultimate weapon she used successfully for so many years to get whatever she wanted - reluctantly complied, ran away shamefully like beaten dog, and never showed her face again in Mont Royal.

Sure, as Ashton said, such signature under duress is invalid. But Virgilia assured her that George would hire the best lawyers, if she ever challenges them in court.

The stupid "heartbreaking" scene in the TV series of Ashton bursting into tears when she saw her home ruined - was not at all what happened: On the contrary, when Ashton first entered Mont Royal in Book III, she was pleased to find it prosperous - for Madeline struggled for years to rebuild the estate, turning it to complex business of sawmill and phosphate fields. She liked the new house which was under construction, Madeline worked so hard to renovate it. When Ashton left, she was screaming in rage and frustration, not sobbing. The only tears she had during the scene were of fear, when she thought Virgilia was going to disfigure her.

BTW, there was no physical fight between Madeline and Ashton.

After Fenway found out about Ashton's scheme, he was furious for her meanness, that she nearly took Mont Royal from her own family. This time, Ashton could NOT get away like she usually did. All her tricks failed, for Fenway, as old and scooped as he was, was by no means spineless worm like Huntoon. He forced the whole ugly truth out of her. Though he loved Ashton, he could not condone such cruelty. Keeping his earlier promise, he kicked her out of his life and house - permanently.

The last paragraph about Ashton: she became owner of luxurious brothel in Chicago named "The Carolina Club" - again, calling herself Brett. Ha-ha-ha, so funny. Some people never grow up. She did not know if Fenway divorced her or not, and strangely she missed him. "She was a strong woman, and a successful one, but there was nothing for her except decay, the slow ruin of her beauty, death. And every once in a while she was forced to confront that... wishing that she were a child playing with Brett at Mont Royal once again".

Interesting point: except Leaming and her occasional lovers, all the men who were married or seriously involved with Ashton either broke up with her (Billy and Fenway) or died (Forbes, Huntoon, Powell). She never had children - in Book I it is implied that the abortion damaged her body thus. She grieved very little about that.

Somehow, I don't think Ashton got what she deserved. She deserved to remain at that sleazy brothel in Santa Fe, or the same fate of Des LaMotte. Many of the other N & S villains got what they deserved: Bent, Scar, Lamar Powell, the guard who tortured Billy in Libby prison (it was not George but Billy), Jack Jolly, the LaMottes (all four them - Forbes, Justin, Francis and Des). All those are made of the same stuff: wicked, sociopath people, who maliciously destroy other people in order to get what they want, even when there is no profit for them except sadistic pleasure. That incident right in the beginning of the series, with Brett and the egg, accurately describes Ashton's evil nature throughout her entire life. She committed so many crimes and other foul deeds, at the top of them are:

1) Conspiracy to murder Billy. What did she hope to gain from that? Nothing, except "if I don't have, then you don't have it either".

2) Conspiracy to assassinate Jeff Davis.

3) Humiliating Medaline in public, regardless of the time Madeline helped her.

4) Indirectly responsible for the death of Judah and Orry.

5) Murder of Luis. He was hardly innocent person, but still it was murder.

6) Scheme to take over Mont Royal and evacuate Madeline.

So what if Ashton is slowly decaying, that she has no one to love her, no children? She still has money and power. Evil people like Ashton never stop destroying others till their last day. That was the case with Bent and Scar (no, Scar never made peace with Charles). Who knows what evil deeds will Ashton do, and how many innocent people will be harmed as result? I was very disappointed with the last mentioning of her.

The bottom line: Ashton was sadistic sociopath, wicked angel-faced monster, despicable whore and egoistic-egocentric bitch. She never did even one honest thing in her life.

Terri Garber definitely played remarkably the role of Ashton, but seems that some people confuse between the actress and the character. The actress is adorable, but not the character. I read some ridiculous posts about Ashton, like that she was "funny" and "comedic", or that she should have married Billy and then she might have eventually turned out alright... yeah, and pigs could fly. Scumbags like Ashton and Bent NEVER change. There was nothing funny or comical about her.

reply

Thank you, KitiaraUthMatar90, for taking the time to write your informative post. It's been years since I read the trilogy, and I had forgotten a lot of details from the books.

I recently bought the N&S box set, and watched N&S and L&W over the past few nights and today. About an hour ago, I loaded disc 1 of "Heaven and Hell" and kept shaking my head in either disgust or amazement (sometimes both), until I finally realised that I wasn't interested in watching anymore.

What a pity how they've botched the third installment. They should have left well enough alone.



I need a man, not a boy!
"Grown Up World"
http://www.axella.com

reply

[deleted]

Thanks so much for such a good account of Ashton's history in the books. I hadn't seen Heaven & Hell, and its been years since I read all 3 of the books, so when I put the DVD in, I kept repeating "Huh?" until my husband asked why I was so confused! While I know many fans wouldn't rest until the trilogy was complete, it's sad to see it was completed with such a "whatever" attitude and not done with the great quality of the first book or even the the grace of the second (although after all the major plot changes in L&W, I didn't see how the 3rd installment would be possible). Sadly, this finale was shown purely to squeeze the dying breath out of a series that should have ended with L&W while it could still leave the stage with its dignity.

As far as Ashton getting what she deserved, while Jakes did give most of his villains their comeuppance, Ashton didn't get nearly what she should have. I think Jakes kept this one character from her just desserts to show that life doesn't always punish the wicked.

reply

um, uh, thank you for explaining all of that from the book but i think your opinions are over the top.

first, it's just a story and not real-life. also, ironicly, in real life there are plenty of people that do not get comeuppance or even considered bad people even when they may be sociopaths behind closed doors etc. actually in real life, it's much more insidious than in movies and stories. in movies and stories, usually it's made so that good overcomes or that the bad is very clear to the viewer and everyone is always in character to be 'recognized' in our psyche. ashton's character is known to be bad and everyone around her and in the society knows she's bad pretty much too.

real life, a bit more tricky and not always so. why? because a lot of the majority is also bad and pat eachother on the back and tell eachother they are good.

reply

I disagree with you. Yes, it’s a story and not real life. It’s melodrama and a bodice ripper. And if a reader is going to give up the amount of time it takes to slog through all that pulp fiction, they Deserve the reward of seeing the villains (albeit mustache twirling, cardboard cutout, cartoonish AF) get what they deserve.

reply

Thanks for the synposis of "Heaven and Hell" the novel. It's been years since I read it. I remember that the identity of Bent's birth parents was discovered. He was not the Senator's illegitimate son, as in the movies. I don't remember if Bent himself was actually told, but the man his birth mother hired to spy on him found out that Bent was conceived during a rape of the woman by her own father. They were Todds; implied that they were related to the First Lady Mary Todd Lincoln. Insanity was present in the Todd family, although they took great pains to hide it. So that probably explains why Bent was such a psycho.

reply

Many thanks for your amazing summary. One only thing that remains unclear to me is how did Constance died? Did Bent kill her as per the TV series 3?

reply

Did Bent kill her as per the TV series 3?


Yes, he did.

The only honest thing Ashton did was liking Will and giving money to suffragists near the end of Book III. I think if anyone had the chance to redeem her it was Will Fenway.

The worst thing she did was betraying James imo. He really did love her.

Keep in mind though, the miniseries gave her a little more humanity than the book did. They have her say "I care about James", something she never said in the book and actually she acted like she hated him, also, the movie makes her remorseful of some of her deeds at the end of the the second one, something she never was in the book. The movie also doesn't show her plotting for James to be killed like she did in the book, or at least being aware of the plot.

I think people like Ashton because for one thing, Terri Garber put a real sense of comedy in her portrayal of Ashton, so yes, she was amusing in the movie at times. She's also a character who stirs things up and makes drama, and without her antics, it may have been more boring. Sorry to say but I do feel that John Jakes characters, at least in this series, are pretty black-and-white, everyone is either good or bad, with no real explanation for why the bad ones are the way they are. So while we like the good guys, without trouble-makers to root for them against, it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining.

I find Ashton, or at least what she represents, a bit more complex. It's almost misogynistic the way she's portrayed. She's ambitious and she likes sex, so that makes her a bad person, whereas if a man is that way, we think they're exciting for that.

In the book Ashton keeps a box with buttons from all her conquests and in the third book, she puts two buttons in to represent a man with the biggest, uh, you know, and I think that was hilarious. I like that. Men carry on about women's breasts and that's just "a guy being a guy", so why shouldn't a girl be the same way about a man's sexual parts. In a way Ashton's a woman ahead of her time, so no wonder she supported the Suffragists. She's a bit of a feminist in her own way.

I also thought it was kind of tacky that Billy dumped her because she was too ambitious and experienced, because as I said, if a man is like that, that's great, but if a woman is, she deserves to be dumped? I can see why she was upset, especially when he goes right to her own sister. Yes, she did go after Billy because Brett liked him, but he wasn't interested in Brett at the time and Ashton truly did fall for Billy and was going to give up her ambitions for him. She was a young girl, and she had been rejected, so I kind of can excuse her for the Billy mess.

Like I said, I think the worst thing she did was betray James. She should have just left him when she didn't want him anymore. I guess you could say she was young and she had been seduced by a very charming man, but, still....

I wish the author had let her and Will stay together. She seemed happy with him and I think he could have kept her in line without being overbearing.

reply

I disagree with you. I don't blame Billy Hazard in the least for picking Brett over Ashton. He'd have had to have rocks in his head to get involved with a woman like Ashton. In the meantime Brett was not only prettier, she was as nice as Ashton was mean.

reply

I was going more by the book, not the movie. In the book Billy stopped liking Ashton because she was "too experienced" (which is kind of sad considering the more experience a man has, the better, but a woman, no...also he had slept with a prostitute while seeing Ashton) and because she was "too ambitious" (another thing that it's cool on a man, not a woman, at least in those days).

I forget all the details but I just thought he could have handled their breakup better, he kind of just stopped bothering with her after a fight I think and then went with Brett if I remember correctly, meanwhile Forbes was involved with Brett and unlike in the movie, he really wanted Brett over Ashton. I don't think he ever slept with Ashton before Brett broke up with him, unlike how the movie showed it. They hooked up after Brett and Billy got together. Billy never stumbled on Ashton and Forbes having sex like in the movie.

The thing is, Ashton in her mind was willing to give up her ambition for Billy, but she never told him that. That was her mistake.

Don't get me wrong, I know Ashton is a rotten person and I'm not a fan. I just thought in the book that Billy didn't handle their breakup that great and it must have been kind of weird for Ashton to see him then go for her sister, and I think it was a little weird for Brett to want him after he'd been involved with her sister, but then again, Ashton did first take an interest in Billy because Brett did and she didn't want any man to not notice her (Ashton) and she couldn't have any rivals, especially her sister. So yes, it was a twisted reason she went for Billy in the first place, but I think she did fall in love with him. She was pretty young, too, so I guess I'll give her a little room for error based on that.

Imo her worst behavior was to James, her betrayal of him and the terrible way she spoke of him and thought of him, unlike in the movie she never said anything like "I care about James", please, she hated his guts, and he was never anything but good to her.

I guess there's just a part of me that wishes she'd married Billy as maybe she wouldn't have ended up ruining so many lives, and I liked Forbes with Brett better anyway. He was a bit of a bad boy in the book, but he really did love Brett.

reply

I've never read the novel. I really should because I recently watched all three mini series and enjoyed them a lot. I think the reason Ashton turned me off so much in the films was because of her selfish personality. In the films it seemed to me that she and Bent were made for each other. Also, I'm a southerner and Jefferson Davis is a hero to us as is Lincoln to northerners. The fact that the characters of Ashton, her husband James Hartoon and Bent all wanted to overthrow President Davis didn't endear them to me as a southerner. Also, as a southerner I didn't have any use for Virgilia Hazard. She came across as a fanatic who wanted to see us all hanging at the end of a rope. However, I did get a kick out of her shooting that creep of a politician who was only using her for favors in the bedroom. David Ogden Stiers who played Virgilia's "friend" should go to Washington. He'd fit in perfectly nowadays. All he'd have to do is act the same as he did in 'North And South'...LOL.

reply

I really recommend you to check out the books, you can get hardback or paperback copies for pretty good prices on eBay, sometimes even sold as a set.

I think the movie got Ashton pretty close except that I think they make her sillier and more cartoonish than she is in the books. They try to lighten her up a bit, make her more like Scarlett O'Hara, I read they thought of her as a Scarlett type but I think that's only the surface. Ashton is a much more malicious person than Scarlett, much darker and more shallow.

Movie's Bent is a cross between two characters, a military fanatic from Ohio named Elkanah Bent and a Georgian named Lamar Powell, and he's the one that wants to overthrow Davis, not book Bent. If you read the books you'll see how they crossed the characters, it's kind of interesting in some ways but I prefer the book versions because you get more insight into the characters. It goes more into why Powell didn't like Davis and how he wanted to run his own state, which are only touched upon briefly in the movies and mixed up with Bent's obsession to be in a war, which Powell was not interested in.

Virgilia in the books ends up showing guilt for letting that soldier die, and becomes a better person and doesn't kill the senator, I think she loves him in the book but can't be with him because he's married.

What part of the south are you from? I have a lot of interest in the South. I'm from Baltimore, MD. Interest in the civil war seems to be in my family's blood. We have a cup that belonged to Maggie Davis that Jefferson Davis gave her for her first birthday.:) We got it from Heritage Auctions.

reply

I'm from the southwest corner of Louisiana. Nearly all of my ancestors were French speaking Cajuns and a lot were Choctaw Indians who although not wealthy slaveowners still fought for the Confederacy mainly to protect what they did have from a federal govt. that might as well have been on a different planet. From what I've read, President Davis was more popular in the western states of Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas and Mississippi than in the east where more of the fighting took place. In fact, Louisiana is broken up into parishes instead of counties like the other 49 states and I live in Calcasieu Parish which is just east of Jefferson Davis Parish and just south of Beauregard Parish, which was named after Confederate general Pierre Beauregard. ~ I did get to tour President Davis' home in Biloxi, MS where he spent the last years of his life. It really was interesting and I'll bet they would have loved to get an item like the cup you were able to acquire from Heritage Auctions. Also, I would imagine that being from Maryland, you probably had ancestors on both sides of the war. A lot of the brother against brother conflicts came from the border states like Maryland, Kentucky and farther west into Missouri. But back to the North and South story, I agree with you that they wanted to make Ashton into somewhat of a Scarlett O'Hara type. And although Scarlett was no angel, she was more likeable than Ashton though. I'd have to say that if I lived in that time period I'd probably have more of an attitude like Orry out of all of the main characters. Slavery was a fact of life during that era, but there was no excuse for brutalizing slaves the way villains like LaMotte or that overseer Jones did. I admired Orry for taking the whip from Jones and telling him that he wouldn't stoop to treating a dog the way Jones was treating the slaves. At any rate, I plan on reading the novels since the books always go into more detail and tend to answer any questions that are unanswered because of time constraints to any film. : )

reply

Thanks for the information. That's pretty cool about your ancestors. I'm not sure if anyone in my family fought in the civil war, my father's family on the paternal side are immigrants from Italy. My father is mostly interested in the Confederacy though he does have some things from Union soldiers because it's easier to find those items and they aren't as costly. We've been to Gettysburg too, but the only place in the South I've been is Virginia. A good book I read recently called Embattled Confederates has a lot of info about Davis and how some of the governors in the south felt about him.

Is it true that in Louisiana there's a lot of belief in werewolves and vampires being in the French Quarter?

I'll have to keep in mind about Davis' home in MS if I ever want to sell the cup. They had other items from him too in that auction that were really beautiful but way out of my father's price range.

Orry of the movie is a bit of a blend of book Orry and his brother Cooper, so some of Orry's attitudes come from Cooper who only appears in the 3rd movie.

I hope you enjoy the books! They are massive, so be prepared for a lot of reading.:D It's fun to see the differences though. And the back of the 2nd book has an afterword by the author detailing a little bit about where he got the idea for the conspiracy against Davis. Come back and let us know what you thought of the differences between movie and book.:)

Also, there's a remake of the miniseries coming out by the Discovery network.

reply

Well, I think a lot of that stuff about vampires and werewolves is put out by tourism and p.r. companies in New Orleans. I live 200 miles west of New Orleans, but I know they make a lot of money from the tourist trade due to things like Mardi Gras carnivals and the vampire thing. In fact it's amazing how so many of these companies and local govts. use things like this to promote tourism. One of my best friends here is from Worcester, MA. He and his wife moved here 10 years ago due to a job change. I laughed when he said he almost expected it to be either like "Gone With the Wind" or "The Dukes of Hazzard" with moonshiners all over the place when he and his wife moved here. We're sort of like a modern day version of Orry Main and George Hazzard I suppose...LOL. Thank goodness there aren't any Bents around though...LOL. By the way, were your ancestors some of the immigrants who came from Italy and Sicily during the late 1800s and early 1900s? The reason I ask is because I have a good friend whose ancestors on his dad's side came from Palermo, Sicily in the early 1900s. He told me some of the family settled near Philadelphia and some came to Louisiana. I'm glad you mentioned about Orry and Cooper here. When I first saw the character of Cooper I didn't know who he was. In fact I was wondering, what is Alexander Mundy doing here? LOL When I was a kid, Robert Wagner played the part of a character named Alex Mundy in a show called "It Takes a Thief". Anyway I thought he might be a cousin or something like Charles Main until it was established that he and Madelaine were inlaws. But I always thought it was odd that he was never mentioned, even when either of the parents died. As for President Davis, I did a term paper on him in high school American history. He was really in a tight spot because northerners considered him a traitor for being the president of the states who were fighting for independence and a lot of southern extremists wanted him out of the way because he wasn't interested in destroying the north, he only wanted independence and afterward a peaceful co-existence. He also wanted to ultimately do away with slavery and send the former slaves back to Africa. Ironically, Abraham Lincoln also wanted to send the slaves back to Africa after the war. Some were sent back and formed the country called Liberia. But unfortunately the Lincoln assassination along with the reconstruction extremists destroyed most of these plans. Oh, also do you know when the Discovery network remake of North and South will be coming out? I'm curious to see if it is as good as the mini series was.

reply

I figured it was mostly for tourism reasons with the vampires/werewolves stuff. Especially now with the Twilight craze...........

They have some shows on Discovery and History about swamp monster legends as well but I can't remember if that's in Louisiana or West Virginia.

I always just pictured Lousiana to look like the French Quarter everywhere, lol. That's cool about your friend and you being like George and Orry.:) I think that friendship is what really kept people interested in this series, not that all the characters don't bring something, but right away you get on board with the story because of the friendship. You'll see in the book just how nasty Bent was to them right from the start, too, just like in the movie, but he looks different. He's not handsome like the movie version.

Yes, my great-grandfather and his family were from Sicily. I'm not sure when they migrated here and where it was exactly, I'll have to ask my father. Our last name is Bonarrigo. An actress named Laura Bonarrigo is a distant relative, she was on a soap opera in New York, before she married and changed her name to Kauffman.

A lot of people were confused by the presence of Cooper in the 3rd movie because of him being eliminated from the first movies, so when I read the books I got just how he fit in. I don't know why the first movies cut him out. Probably to save time/hiring another actor. Also his wife if pretty plain in the book, so they probably thought people wouldn't be too interested in watching them. You'll notice as you read the books where the movie was going for visual glamor sometimes over trying to stay true to the looks described for the characters.

I didn't know Davis wanted to eliminate slavery. That's interesting, and it makes sense for part of why the Bent/Powell character didn't like Davis. In the book he talks about wanting to encourage slavery and breeding slaves in his new state he planned to make. It'll be interesting to see if the new movie keeps that dialogue in.

I don't know yet when the new movie is coming out, I wish I did. I know Jakes is supposed to executive produce. Lionsgate is also producing along with Discovery, so, I'm thinking it might be kind of big budget coming from Lionsgate. I think they're doing another miniseries first before N&S. My guess is it's going to take a long time because of the length of the series and they just announced this last year in August. I follow Discovery on twitter and I'm keeping myself on the lookout about it, so I will definitely let you know when I get more info. I'm excited to see who they cast.....but I can't imagine anyone living up to Swayze and Read as Orry and George. This production has big shoes to fill.........

reply

LOL...That swamp monster stuff is probably filmed in Louisiana. The Atchafalaya Swamp which is in the south central part of the state between Lafayette and Baton Rouge is like something out of a primeval era of the earth's history. Very few people live in there. I know I wouldn't want to live among the gators, snakes and mosquitoes. But it makes excellent fodder for publicity and TV shows...ha ha. It's kind of like the old French Quarter section of New Orleans too. A lot of publicity is built up around it. But most of the state is made up of medium sized cities to small towns. Lake Charles, the city I live in is about as ordinary as it gets. There's quite a bit of industry here with the oil refineries and chemical plants and most people live in ordinary middle sized homes in the suburbs. As for Jefferson Davis, when I researched my paper on him, I found out he ultimately wanted to do away with slavery and send the former slaves back to Africa. But at the same time he wanted to keep the South an agrarian society, not realizing that industry and a much higher population in the North, along with a potato famine in Ireland that was creating thousands of immigrants entering New York City would be the South's demise in its quest for independence. From what I've read, the war wasn't just a slavery issue. In fact, Lincoln promised to keep slavery legal if the South would not secede. There were other issues concerning free trade involved. I really don't know the details, but I've always heard that when researching any war, follow the dollar to find out the root cause. Slavery was an issue concerning new states entering the union, but it wasn't the only issue. Like always, there are a lot of gray areas. It's like before WWII, Japan was buying U.S. oil in its quest to gain more land in Asia. When Roosevelt put an embargo on the U.S. oil, the Pearl Harbor attack became a reality. Oh well, that's another story. But most of these wars in history have had more than one cause. Anyway, I'm anxious to see when the new miniseries comes out. Unfortunately, Patrick Swayze has already passed on. But I'm wondering if they will use actors like James Read, Leslie Ann Down, Genie Francis or even Philip Casnoff in the new production. LOL...Now this is ironic, Mike, my buddy from Massachusetts just called to see if I wanted to go bowling Wednesday...ha ha.

reply

I wonder if some of those shows on alligator or crocodile hunting are filmed in Lousiana. I don't like those shows because I don't like to see hunting, but the swamp monster stuff is kind of fun for me. It's good you know a lot about your state, I couldn't tell anyone too much about Maryland.:D

That's interesting that there's a lot more to the war than the slavery issue. I hadn't ever thought about that. I know states rights, but as I heard this man say on one history show, he said, "states rights to do what? Protect slavery", so I figured that's pretty much the cause. I haven't studied a whole lot about the war. But that is true, money is often the cause of war, root cause. I didn't know Lincoln would have kept slavery without secession, that's interesting.

I had studied a little about Japan before they bombed Pearl Harbor, I forgot all the details though. I thought their anger at us had something to do with China, we were helping China or something.

I'm excited to see the casting too. I don't have a lot of hope for good casting though. I don't think much of too many of today's actors, and I'm afraid they'll just go for names over talent. Maybe they will bring some of the old actors in to play cameos.

Have fun bowling if you go! :D

reply

When it comes to hunting, I'm like Pa Walton. I remember on an old episode of The Waltons, John told John Boy that there was a difference between hunting to survive and hunting just to kill for no reason. I'm an animal lover myself so I rarely go hunting, in fact my little gray and white cat Sophie is sleeping on my lap as I'm typing here, but I can see why somebody would hunt to put food on the table under desperate circumstances. Personally, I prefer going to Wendy's to get a hamburger or heating up something in the microwave than sitting out in a stand getting eaten up by mosquitoes if I'm hungry though...LOL. As for WWII, I've heard that if the Axis Powers of Germany, Japan and Italy had won, the U.S. would have been split in half between Germany and Japan. Also, I read that Roosevelt wanted to get the U.S. in the war to side with Great Britain, Russia and China. The ironic thing about China and Russia though is that nowadays Germany, Italy and Japan are allies while China and Russia although not enemies, aren't exactly friends either. At any rate, I'm glad the Axis Powers didn't win. I can't speak a word of German or Japanese, although I love Italian food. : )

reply

I never watched The Waltons but I know of the show. I like Little House On The Prairie though. I love animals too, I was a vegetarian for a number of years but for now had to give it up because I have a thyroid disorder and we're not supposed to have soy, certain kinds of nuts....things that I relied on to give me protein when I was a vegetarian. I have a gray and white cat too.:) I have three cats, all males. I've had cats all my life, and shared dogs with my sister, but they all died and we don't have time for another. I have a tank of fish and snails too.:D

My sister and I always say if we had to hunt for own food, we'd die.XD Who knows what we'd really do.

I assume there are lots of mosquitoes in Louisiana? We get black ones here in the summer.

That's interesting about WWII. It is ironic about Russia. My sister said that Stalin had camps that were even worse than the Nazi camps.

I can't speak any German or Italian even though I'm both of those things, but I did study a little Japanese in college. I haven't bothered with it in so long though but I do remember a few words and the hiragana and katakana writing system. It was fun but very difficult.

reply

LOL...You sound like me with my animals. I don't have anymore dogs. But my cats are all rescued strays. The females have been spayed and the males neutered. It's too hard to find good homes for kittens and I refuse to bring them to the local animal shelter where they are put to sleep if not adopted in a specific amount of time. Sophie loves sleeping on my lap while I'm online, although she's napping on the couch in the living room right now. And I have another female named Molly. I found her in the parking lot of the apartments where I used to live. She had been declawed, but apparently abandoned. She didn't belong to any of the neighbors. She insists on sleeping at the foot of the bed when I go to bed. As for WWII, I've heard the same about Stalin. Even more were murdered in their gulags than in the Nazi death camps. The same with Mao's Chinese communist govt. although I've heard of horror stories concerning Japanese slaughtering Chinese, Filipinos and Australians before the Pearl Harbor attack. And like the German Nazis, the Japanese were performing medical "experiments" on their prisoners too. My dad was stationed in the Pacific theatre during WWII and I remember him saying that TV shows like Hogan's Heroes and McHale's Navy portrayed the Germans as pompous fools and the Japanese as nearsighted idiots, but if Germany and Japan had been as inept as portrayed on those sitcoms, WWII wouldn't have lasted five minutes. And you're definitely right about the mosquitoes here. It was a colder than normal winter and I'm hoping they won't be as bad this year. But with the warm, humid climate here it's perfect for their breeding. Thank goodness for that Deep Woods Off mosquito repellent...LOL. I don't know what people did before stuff like that was on the market. I guess they just suffered a lot. Oh well, speaking of cats, my big old spoiled gray tomcat Oscar is meowing for a midnight snack. He has plenty of dry food, but wants one of those Meow Mix variety snacks. : )

reply

That's nice that you take in animals.:) One of our cats is one who was abandoned apparently, we found him in the driveway. He was already neutered but he does have a broken tail. One is from a shelter and the other from Feline Rescue. I don't know how people can just abandon their animals but I do know people who've done it, just dropped them off in the woods....my fish were rescues too, guppies who were going to be fed to something by the biology teacher at the high school I worked at. Unfortunately they all died but I replaced them with Tetras.

I don't know too much about Chinese war atrocities but I had heard some about the Japanese ones. I used to be into Japanese comics and animation and with some of the subject matter in those, I'm not surprised that they were not inept as portrayed in sitcoms. I can imagine they were very intelligent and cunning in battle.

We had a colder than normal winter here too. I had missed snow, but the amount we got this year was a bit ridiculous.

Well I hope your kitty enjoyed is snacks. My cats have to eat prescription cat food for urinary tracts. My #1 kitty Sasuke has bladder issues and normal cat food gives him stones, he had had to have an operation in the summer. I nearly had a nervous breakdown because that guy is my baby.:)

You may want to check out the Discovery miniseries Klondike to get an idea of the production values for N&S' new miniseries. I checked it out for that reason. It wasn't the greatest imo but the production values were good and the acting pretty good.

reply

I've had problems with bladder issues with some of my cats here. The water here is very hard making it troublesome for felines, according to my vet. Since I've been giving them bottled water, or rather the water in those gallon jugs sold at grocery stores, they've done much better. As for food, I give them a mixture of Purina Dry for indoor cats along with Friskies Meaty Bits and Meow Mix variety packs. Also, I think you're absolutely right about the Japanese, and the Germans too during WWII. A lot of those movies and sitcoms that made the Japanese and Germans look like fools were mostly propaganda. I'm not taking up for them, but there isn't any way those countries could have built up into the powers they became in the 1930s by being idiots. Their problems were that they were brainwashed by power hungry dictators like Hitler, Hirohito and Tojo. And unfortunately the allies' leaders weren't angels either. Stalin and Mao were just as evil as Hitler and Tojo.

reply

I was told that male cats in particular have bladder issues, which does seem true as none of the female cats I had ever had any issues. I'll have to ask my vet if the water here could be a problem, I just use tap.

My poor kitty loved Friskies and Fancy Feast, but he can never have it again. Prescription cat food is more expensive and you can only get it certain places, but, at least by feeding them all that kind, if the others have bladder issues too, this will help.

Yes, I'm glad Germany and Japan are in good shape politically now (I assume anyway). I don't know much about the other dictators outside of Hitler, but it's all pretty scary.

reply

I've tried the Science Diet brands with some of my cats, but they're just not interested. Maybe that's what I get for spoiling them. It seems like with both people and animals we love to eat what's unhealthy. Today at lunch I went to Wendy's and had a double cheeseburger and fries, so I can't very well say anything about my pets preferring what tastes good to them over what's healthy...LOL. My big gray and black tomcat, Oscar is snoozing on the desk as I'm typing and he definitely needs to go on a diet, but he's very vocal and as soon as he starts whining for his Meow Mix, I don't have the heart to turn him down. : )

reply

I use Hill's Prescription brand, I think it's by the Science Diet brand. It took Sasuke a while to like it but now he does, as do the others. But if I had Fancy Feast around, he'd eat that, which is why we can't let it in the house anymore. My father tried to save money by getting one of the others the grocery store food, and Sasuke managed to find scraps and eat them and got so sick that I had to get him a $2000 operation. It was so traumatizing to me because I love all the cats, but he's my special one because he loves me so much.:) He hates other human beings, but me he's loving and affectionate to. It's weird.XD But very sweet.

I have to watch what I eat because of having thyroid disease, it tends to make our cholesterol high, so a cheeseburger and fries would be a no-no for me.XD

I think overweight cats are very typical, especially if they have to be indoors. Two of mine are, one is not but that's only because when we found him he was an outdoors cat and he would never allow us any peace if we tried to keep him in.

Well, we've gone off topic so to keep us from getting in trouble about that, any ideas about who should be cast for the new series? I want a girl named Phoebe Tonkin for Madeline, she reminds me of young Lesley-Anne Down.

And back to what happened to Ashton, I hope the new 3rd movie includes scenes of her lover Villers, they were pretty amusing together. Although, what they talk about might be too inappropriate for the small screen......

Id' say we're to think Ashton paid for her deeds because she does seem lonely at the end, but, then again, she's only 40 when her part ends, for all we know, the next day she might have met Prince Charming.XD I guess her fans can hope for it!

reply

Sasuke sounds like Bandit, my big black and white tomcat. He's scared to death and hides if anybody else comes into the house, but insists on jumping up into bed with me when I go to sleep. I always leave the bedroom door open, because if company comes over, he runs into the back bedroom and hides in the closet. I have no idea why he's scared of other people unless he was mistreated before I found him. I rescued him after Hurricane Rita in 2005. He was living in back of a local convenience store near where I work. There was no mom and no other kittens. I really don't know how he managed to survive. But he's huge now, and spoiled rotten. : )

reply

Yep, that sounds a lot like my boy! Sasuke hisses and growls if anyone else pets him but me. He didn't start out that way, I got him at a shelter as a kitten. He had been abandoned by his mother. He was fine with everyone at first but turned on my niece when she said boo at him and turned on my sister when she had to help me give him a pill. So weird.

That was nice of you to rescue Bandit. I wish more people would help animals. Thanks for doing your part!:)

reply

Well, to be honest Rikajessie I'm a lot more likely to help an animal in need than a person. If there's anything I can't stand it's some creep who pretends to be in need but really isn't and then takes advantage of the American taxpayer. I'm all for helping the handicapped, the aged and children who can't help themselves for whatever reason, whether they're orphans or from abusive homes, etc. But when I hear of cases of fraud where those not in need are getting a govt. check I really get angry. But anyway, you deserve credit for taking in Sasuke too. It sounds like he associates your sister with the pill he took. And both cats and dogs have good memories. Hopefully he'll give both your sister and your niece another chance, but don't be disappointed if he doesn't. When company comes over and Bandit runs and hides in the bedroom, I just take it in stride. :)

reply

I can understand that line of thought. For me it's more that I prefer animals over people because people haven't really been nice to me in life, so.....I find human love/friendship to be conditional, whereas with animals it's unconditional. I know what you mean about people taking advantage, although I suppose I'm not one to say since I had to quit my job due to being ill and since I can't seem to get hired anywhere, I may have to go on unemployment if I'm approved. Though I'm still not really physically well but I have to have some sort of job.....it's difficult to prove you're sick sometimes. I had many tests but nothing shows up to explain why I feel the way I do, unless it's the thyroid disease causing it. We have a man who stands outside the supermarket every night asking for money, or at least every night we are there he's there, it's quite upsetting.....I don't like to seem uncharitable but I don't have money myself and how do I know he really needs it? I've heard of people who did that sort of thing just to supplement income....

I guess that is it, animals have better memories than we realize.

reply

Very true. Also, I don't know much about thyroid trouble, but I remember my mom was having trouble with her thyroid back in the early '90s and she was really ill until it was diagnosed and she started getting medication for it. I'm not even sure what the medication was, but it did help a lot. And your certainly right about animals' memories. Quite a few years ago I was at some friends' house and one of them said to me to pretend I was sneaking up on him. He was sitting in his reclining chair and their little dog was on his lap. He wanted to show me what a good little watchdog she was. So anyway, I got in back of the recliner and pretended to sneak up on my friend. The little dog started barking and growling. She stayed mad at me for a long time and even to this day she looks at me out of the corner of her eye when I go to pet her...LOL. I don't know if she remembers that little game when I was sneaking up on her master or maybe she just smells my cats, Sophie, Bandit or Oscar on me. But she definitely has a terrific memory...ha ha : )

reply

Do you know if your mom's was hypothyroid or hyperthyroid? Mine is hypo, meaning it's underactive. I have an autoimmune disease so antibodies attack my thyroid mistakenly. The medication is called Levothyroxine, or Synthroid. I only happened to stumble on finding out I had it by having some bloodwork for fertility done. Had I not done that, who knows if I'd ever have been diagnosed. My general practitioner was not very thorough and eventually never renewed his license so he's not even in business anymore.

I bet that dog does remember! It sounds just like my cat with my niece and sister.:D

reply

You know I don't remember. But I need to stop by my mom's house after I get off work tomorrow and I'll make it a point to ask. I do know that both people and animals can be affected by thyroid issues. I had a cat named Rita, she was named after Hurricane Rita when I found her, and she had thyroid problems. She started losing weight and I brought her to the vet who prescribed medication. But with her I don't remember if it was hypo or hyperthyroidism. She ended up with congestive heart trouble a couple of years later and the vet advised having her put to sleep which I hated to do, but it was better than letting her suffer. But anyway, I'll let you know whether my mom has hypo or hyperthyroid issues and what kind of medication she's on for it.

reply

Rita must have had hyper thyroid if she was losing weight, it's hypo that slows metabolism down and makes one gain weight. It's always hard to put them down but sometimes it's the only option. We had that with a cat that had kidney disease and was literally breathing his dying breaths, and a dog with a tumor that got so huge it was breaking apart and dragging on the floor.

Thanks for asking your mom!

And have a nice Easter! If you celebrate, that is.

reply

Hi, sorry it's been awhile since I answered. I think it was hypothyroidism. And yes, I definitely celebrate Easter. I'm Catholic, like most of southern Louisiana and Texas. I hope your Easter was nice. I went out of town for a few days and just got back today. Now I gotta go back to work this weekend. That's the worst thing about vacation...LOL.

reply

Hypothryoid is probably more common than the other. I'm Catholic too. I always imagined any Southern state was mostly Protestant. Oh yeah, it's never fun going back to work from a vacation. I'm currently out of work though, so at this point I'd be glad just to get back to something.:D

reply

Actually there are three states in Dixie that have a high percentage of Catholics. Florida, mainly because of the Cubans who realize what liars Castro and his communist regime are. Texas, because of the large amount of Mexicans. And Louisiana because of those of us who have Cajun ancestors. It all stems back to Europe. France and Spain are mostly Catholic while those states in the South who were settled by the English are mostly Protestant. I know what you mean about being out of work. It's been awhile since I've been out of work, but even though I may have a few dollars saved, I'm still very uncomfortable when I'm out of work. I hate being in debt or not having any income. In fact when I go to the store, I'm one of the few who uses cash instead of just running up a big credit card bill and then wondering how I'll pay it a few weeks later. : )

reply

Ah, okay, thanks for the info. I always wondered how I'd be received in certain Southern states I might like to move to being Catholic. I always pictured everything all Protestant and maybe Catholic not appreciated too well. It's that way here, though half of my family is Protestant.

My father always pays cash at the grocery store and in my area, most people use some kind of cards or food stamps. My father always says the cashiers are probably shocked to see cash. Although I may end up in the same boat....I had to quit my job due to illness and since then, it's like I've been blacklisted from the place I worked....I put in applications and make phone calls and hear nothing...it's pretty scary.

reply

LOL...Don't believe all the left wing Hollywood b.s. about those rigid Southern Protestants. Although I'm Catholic I have friends who are Protestants who don't act anything like the way Hollywood loves to stereotype them. The bigots in Hollywood seem to have this mindset that all southerners live in beat up old trailers, marry their cousins, and spend lots of time making moonshine when they're not in church handling rattlesnakes. I guess I'd be a major disappointment to them since I live in a brick and mortar house, was married to a woman I wasn't related to, hate hangovers so I don't drink a lot and am deathly afraid of rattlesnakes...Ha Ha. And shake your dad's hand for me. I thought I was the only one left on this planet who prefers using cash to plastic. Just last night I stopped at Wal Mart to pick up a few groceries and some girl ahead of me was digging around trying one credit or debit card after another. After holding up the line for 15 minutes she finally found one that worked. I told the cashier, "I wish people would start using good old cash again, instead of holding up the lines with these cards." I think she was shocked by my using cash too!

reply

lol well I think I was thinking more of the Protestants vs Catholics experiences I've had with my family more than anything else. I guess I just figured if a place is largely Protestant, they aren't too keen on Catholics. Of course I've seen prejudiced against Protestants from Catholics as well. Being in a family that's mixed with religion, and going to a Protestant Bible study, I see a lot of the prejudices that are still there.

I noticed Hollywood likes to make West Virginia (which I'm not sure is considered a Southern state, I've heard it can be but sometimes isn't) and Texas as places where there are serial killer families who stalk people. I think that's kind of insulting.

My dad and most of his family are really conservative, which is unusual here anyway for a Catholic family. Most of our church here is pretty liberal. Except for the abortion issue. My father's cousin is an actor, his name is Rigg Kennedy, and he sends him a lot of liberal emails.XD

I don't drink a lot either because of my thyroid issue, but I'd never want a hangover so that always kept me from drinking too much as well. My sister was an alcoholic and was forced into sobriety when she got a seizure from withdrawal.

That must have been so embarrassing for that girl, I would be so embarrassed if that happened to me with the cards! Credit cards can be a life saver at times but also big trouble if they're not handled right.

reply

To be honest, at least around here Catholics and Protestants seem to get along well. I remember when I was a kid they were always showing them killing each other in Ireland and I wondered why they hated each other so much over there. Although I'm Catholic, I have nothing against Protestants. And hopefully the Protestants I know have nothing against me for being Catholic. I had an uncle who was an alcoholic for years and I remember the same thing happened to him as to your sister. He fell and went into some sort of seizure while at work and they had to put him in a VA hospital where he suffered through DTs which is where an alcoholic starts seeing things that aren't there due to brain damage from drinking so much. I was a little kid when all that was happening, but I still felt sorry for him. He was a nice guy who just couldn't control the alcohol abuse. As for that girl at Wal Mart, I don't know if she was embarrassed or not. It was about 2 o'clock in the morning and everybody, including the cashier looked half asleep...LOL.

reply

My mother experienced a lot of prejudice because she was Protestant and she fell for a couple of Catholic guys. Her mother didn't like that, even though she did marry my dad who was Catholic, and my father's family made her (my mom) convert to Catholicism. My uncle on my father's side was in love with a Lutheran girl and his father called the girl and made her break up with my uncle. He didn't find this out until a few years ago, and was pretty pissed off about it.

My sister had the DTs too. For her it was seeing everything really off balance. Like the t.v. would look like it was on the floor, or everyone would look like they were way below her and she was looking down from a cliff. I had to be with her through the DTs, and it was pretty traumatizing for me.

Oh my, I'd be dead to the world at 2 in the morning.XD

reply

Wow! Now I can see why you were mentioning about problems between Catholics and Protestants. I've never seen any problems like that over here, but it's a shame it happened in your family. I'm sure it's happened in others too. I guess a lot of that goes way back to the time of Henry VIII when the Protestant Church of England was formed while Spain and France remained Catholic. I don't blame your uncle for being mad about what happened either. It's 3:20 in the morning here and I'm at work. Good thing I got some sleep today...LOL.

reply

Speaking of Henry VIII, did you watch The Tudors on HBO? That was a pretty good series.

Wow, that's unusual work hours.:D It must be hard to train the body to be awake at such times?

reply

No, I haven't had a chance, but it sounds like it would be pretty interesting. As for these crazy work hours...LOL...I work at a local oil refinery and there is absolutely NO getting used to shift work. In fact I think it's hard on the human body to have to change sleep and work hours every so often. Luckily when production is down or at lower levels, it's possible to snooze a bit at work. But it's not a restful sleep like one gets at home in his own bed. I've been working shift work for years and I honestly don't think the body ever really gets trained for it.

reply

An oil refinery...is that dangerous at all?

Well, good for you for having a steady job though that you've been at for years and being able to have crazy hours. Not everyone could do it. My niece's husband leaves his jobs after every couple of years if there's something he doesn't like at the place.

reply

Well, there have been explosions in the past, but they've been few and far between. The last bad one over here was at the Citgo Refinery back in the early '90s. I have to admit though that I still think of that scene in the old John Travolta movie, Urban Cowboy, where they send his uncle to gauge one of the tanks and a bolt of lightning hits nearby and causes an explosion killing his uncle. I guess they had him gauging the tank in a thunderstorm for the movie's story, but I can't imagine climbing on one of the tanks in that kind of weather, even in the middle of a transfer (moving product from one tank to another). As for your niece's husband, I think everybody gets disgusted with their job now and then for whatever reason. Some of us just keep on working at the job anyway, and end up with ulcers... LOL...or do like your niece's husband and say the heck with it and look for another job. With the job market mediocre at best, I prefer just staying on the job instead of having to deal with the hassle of resumes or job applications.

reply

I never saw Urban Cowboy, though I've heard of it. Well, that does sound kind of dangerous! I don't know if I could do it, lol.

It's smart of you to stay where you are. I left one job hoping to get better and when I tried to get back in, I was ignored and no explanation given to me about what they did with my application and they never return my phone calls. So it's back to looking for new work for me.

reply

Ha ha...I think that's happened to nearly all of us. However, there have been a few jobs in the past that I'm glad I left. Years ago I worked at the local newspaper here. I was in what they called the mailroom. It was actually a big warehouse where the papers would come down from the pressroom after being printed. And then we'd have to put advertising inserts in them, bundle them up and then deliver them to the people who delivered them in homes, businesses and in those racks where you put a dime or quarter in and get a paper out. It wasn't really that hard, but it was boring and the pay was minimum wage. They acted as if they were doing us a favor when they gave us our paycheck every couple of weeks. Then they'd come around every so often wanting us to donate to their chosen charity, The United Way. Now I don't know what the United Way does. Maybe it's a good charity, maybe not. But every so often they'd show the publisher of the paper on the front page with one of those oversized checks being given to the charity as if he himself was the one giving all the money. They didn't like it when I mentioned I wish he'd pay us a decent wage instead of blowing his horn about United Way donations. And they liked it even less when me and two other guys started talking about getting a union bigshot to come around unless they started paying us enough to survive on. Now I'm not a troublemaker and I sure don't like the way the unions always support left wing extremist politicians. But I sure don't like it when big companies get nearly free labor either, especially at my expense. Oh well, to make a long story short, they got rid of one of the other guys. Then they said I had scratched one of the trucks while delivering bundles of papers. The foreman told the head of the circulation dept. that she had seen me come in and the truck wasn't damaged, but he said "Get rid of him anyway." I said good riddance and was able to get unemployment for six months and they didn't try to fight me on it either. To this day I rarely read their paper although I'm still friends with a some of my former co workers there. Sometimes it's good to get away from a job too...especially when the company is run by cheapskates...LOL.

reply

Yeah, I can understand why you'd have been fed up with that place. That doesn't seem right, paying people minimum wage but expecting them to give to charity. The job I recently did didn't pay much, and didn't give any benefits, anything, you were not able to build up sick leave. And their way of justifying all this was to say we were only temps. Well, my sister was "temping" for years.

I had to leave a month before school (this was at a school, working with handicapped kids) ended because I was having health issues, and I applied for the same company, Baltimore County Public Schools, but in the cafeteria where there are better benefits. I applied at the beginning of the school year and they claimed they'd call me when they had a recruitment and they never did. I've emailed them, called, and they never call me back. So I applied for unemployment but was denied because they said I didn't leave for a good reason. I have $8000 in medical bills that I could use to prove I had a health problem....so I'm pretty pissed about that.

reply

I guess they have those temp service companies all over the country. I know they have them here. And the problem is you can work for them for years, but you're still considered a temp worker and they refuse to pay unemployment if you get laid off. Years ago I worked for one on a few jobs. They wouldn't let you know the job was ending until that very day. But if you found another job or quit for any reason whatsoever, they'd act all insulted if you didn't give them a two week notice. I'm definitely at the point where I look out for number one because most of these companies don't care about their employees. It's all about the bottom line with them. It pretty much always has been, but it seems worse than ever the last five years or so.

reply

Yes, that seems to be so. And when I told my doctor I was trying to get employment again in the schools but they never call me back, he said, "That's the government for you". I'm not sure what that meant exactly but I do know both the public school system and unemployment here in MD were unfair to me. I heard some man here who works as a wedding photographer gets unemployment in the months where weddings aren't as frequent, yet he can take an assignment whenever he wants. So it doesn't seem right to me that he gets unemployment but someone literally without a job who is trying to get one, gets denied.

Definitely Balto. Co. Schools have pulled many stunts over the years to pay their employees as little as possible, including having people work overtime for no pay.

Also in this state we have a lot of people who live together and have children without being married and they collect on welfare even if they have jobs! Next door I have a couple that has two boys and they both have good jobs but by not getting married, they collect benefits. In fact that's why they don't get married.

reply

The feds are like those big companies Rikajessie. I don't trust them, from that creep Obama on down to the lowest one on the totem pole. All we get are a lot of b.s. from them when they're running for office. And then once they're in, they're supposed to be working for the taxpayers, but they look at it as if we're working for them and they're always ready to sic their Secret Service or IRS goons on anybody who doesn't tow the line. I look out for number one and don't expect much from either these big companies or the federal govt.

reply

Yes, it's smart not to trust them. No one from Baltimore County did anything with my application and when I applied for unemployment because I wasn't being hired where I was trying to be, they told me, quite nastily too, that you can only get it if you were laid off. Yet I'm hearing of people who work as wedding photographers and get unemployment claiming they don't get work for a few months. I said isn't that defrauding the system? And they said no. I think it's bull because I worked with teachers and they didn't claim unemployment in the summer months, they got part-time jobs.

And I don't believe that people don't get married except in certain months. Even if the winter months don't have as many weddings as the summer or spring, they still have some. And I look at it like this, if they chose to do a job that they know isn't active year round, then they should try to find a job they can do in the months they aren't working rather than just collect unemployment. I'm actually seeking work of any kind whatsoever and not being contacted, and they don't want to help me.

I'd rather not have their help then if that's the case. I'll just have to keep hoping, praying and applying.

Btw, have a nice Memorial Day weekend!

reply

You're absolutely right. As for schoolteachers, I'm not sure whether they get paid or not when kids are out of school. Now I'm curious. But that's outrageous that these wedding photographers are able to get unemployment in the fall and winter. But it sounds like that county you live in is giving you a dirty deal too. Anyway, you have a nice Memorial Day tomorrow too Rikajessie. I've got some yard work to catch up on so I'll probably be busy. I was telling somebody at work the other day that I think I work harder on my days off than when I'm actually on the job...ha ha. With this subtropical climate in southwest Louisiana and southeast Texas, lawns have to be mowed at least nine months out of the year and when I'm off I'm usually mowing either my yard or my mom's yard.

reply

I think with teachers they can have some of their money withheld during the school year so that when the summer comes, they can still receive a check. I knew a teacher that worked as a lifeguard during the summer. That's what these wedding photographers should be doing, getting as second job instead of collecting unemployment. Baltimore County is pretty messed up, I hope someday to move out of here.

I'm sure my father would be glad not to have to mow the lawn that often.:D He's still doing it at 74 years old. I told him I'd take over but he thinks I'm not strong enough.:D

I think a lot of people can work harder when they're off than at their jobs, lol. I've found there's so much to do around a household it's not even funny. Honestly if I didn't have to work, I'd love to do the old-fashioned thing of just being a housewife/mom.

reply

Quite: “ I'm a southerner and Jefferson Davis is a hero to us.”

Gross.

reply

Thanks so much for the comparison of the mini series and the books. What about Orry's cousin Charles. In the mini series we first meet him at Tilet's funeral but there's no explanation of why he's there or what his background is. Also, it shows him talking to Semeramus about how he's being treated badly by his cousins and aunt but to me he just appeared out of no where. They also imply that there was something between him and Semeramus.

















"The richness I achieve comes from Nature, the source of my inspiration."--Claude Monet

reply

In the book we first meet Charles as a little boy. It says he was the son of Tillet's brother, a lawyer who died along with his wife on a steamer that sank. Charles was an only child. He was staying with Tillet and Clarissa when the parents were on vacation and died, and he stayed with them ever since, but Tillet didn't think much of his brother so he didn't think much of Charles either. It says he was allowed to go his own way and he fished a lot and roamed the woods and was friends with black boys. Clarissa seemed to like Charles more than Tillet did and think he could grow up to be something good and wants him to get education.

And yes there was something between him and Semiramus, they do have sex when he's older but I don't think it was ever a love relationship, more like a friendship with benefits I guess? I think she was older than him and I don't think she was supposed to be really in love with him like the movie says.

reply