I still think Susan is a bitch. Actually thinking she should be part of the whole process and trying to push Ross out of it. I've been married and had a couple of kids since seeing this and I can't imagine someone else trying to intervene in that.
shareThat's because Susan was indeed a bitch. If she loved Carol so much, she should have been more civil to the father of Carol's son. Granted he could be an a-hole at times, but it was his marriage that was ruined. He did have a bit of a right to be bitter. He still put his own feelings aside and talked Carol into getting married in spite of her parents' non approval. He was the bigger person there.
What irritated me was Susan expecting Ross' baby to take her last name and drop his. That's when I truly started disliking her. That's his biological son and you expect to just stake a claim? Couldn't stand her in that episode. Or really Carol either.
MissCaptainObviousxx —If you are interested in seeing it from another point of view, you can find posts of mine hereimdb.com/title/tt0108778/board/view/264106042?d=264106528#264106528And hereimdb.com/title/tt0108778/board/view/264106042?d=264106528#264106528Briefly, I believe that the pregnancy was completely deliberate and that Susan wanted Bobo, the anonymous sperm donor, as the father, but Carol insisted on Ross and somehow got her way.Susan sees it has her baby too because the pregnancy only occurred after she had made a commitment to raise the baby with Carol. She sees herself being pushed out by Ross who had nothing to do with it except for one sperm cell.If it was accidental, that would be a completely different situation, but Carol almost undoubtedly became pregnant after she had left Ross, and she was either cheating on Susan, or it was done with Susan's grudging agreement. I am quite sure that it was the latter because of it were the former, Susan would be even angrier.
but it was his marriage that was ruined.Ross is plenty smart enough to not blame Carol, and he doesn't. He doesn't blame Carol and he is not angry at Carol. It was simply something in her psychology that she finally came to realize. He does seem to blame Susan, but Carol would've realized that she was a lesbian sooner or later. From everything that I have been told, Carol, and women in her position, do not have a choice, and if they did, they would choose to not be a lesbian. share
Ok. Reading your posts and you're pretty big on conjecture about what went on behind the scenes. So what is your reasoning why Susan didn't just get pregnant herself? Go get Bobo and the single sperm cell (your words) and have no worries about Ross being involved at all.
shareI read your opinions on the matter and I strongly disagree. I think Susan was a major bitch, end of. No matter how much she wanted the baby to be hers too, biologically and legally speaking, Ross and Carol are the parents. Susan is a step parent. The same way if Susan had been a man instead of a woman. Or if Mona had married Ross when Racheal was pregnant. Biology wins, unless a parent is neglectful or abusive. Susan, no matter how much she wanted to be, was NOT a biological parent. Trying to stake claim was BS.
It was Ross who lost a wife and marriage. It was Ross who wasn't able to live with his biological son. Susan trying to say "mine" and claim the child as more hers than his (by wanting Ben to take her name and NOT his) was bitchy as hell.
All in all, you and I are in complete and total, 100% disagreement.
MissCaptainObviousxx wrote:
I think Susan was a major bitch, end of.Well, with that attitude, I understand that you are not interested in considering what's going on from Susan's point of view.
It was Ross who lost a wife and marriage.That would've happened sooner or later. If not to Susan, then to another woman. It is not as if Susan "made" Carol a lesbian.
It was Ross who wasn't able to live with his biological son.Ross's biological son would not have existed if Carol and Susan did not want to and commit to raise a child, and Carol insisted on Ross being the father.
Biology wins, unless a parent is neglectful or abusive. Susan, no matter how much she wanted to be, was NOT a biological parent. Trying to stake claim was BS.That is the reason that Susan wanted the father to be Bobo, an anonymous sperm donor, so this issue would not come up. Somehow Carol got her way, and Susan is quite reasonably not happy about it.She does not want her lover's ex-lover as part of their family group. Almost no one would.No, Susan is not a biological parent. She did not contribute one sperm cell. (Ross did that accidentally. I believe that Carol got pregnant deliberately because she and Susan wanted to raise a child.) But she has made a commitment to raise the child, and I think that is vastly more important. share
No, I'm not interested. Yet you continue to blather on and on. I see Susan's point of view. I still think she was a bitch.
Yes, it would have happened either way. Ross still had feelings for her and he was heartbroken.
Yes, you're right, Carol insisted, yet Susan was a bitch to Ross. If anything, she should have take it out on Carol.
Susan wanted a random sperm donor, but Carol wanted to know who the father was. Susan should have respected that that's exactly what Ross was. He wasn't a sperm donor. He was the father who loved his son and had legal rights to him. Regardless of whether Ross did it purposely, he still did it. He still fathered Ben. He gave him financial support and loved him from the moment he knew about him. It's not like Carol was some one night stand he threw away. She was a woman he loved and he created a child with her. He supported Ben in every possible way. Susan didn't have the right to come in and try to take his place. Sure, she could help Carol as her wife, but that makes her a step parent, not the father. End of.
MissCaptainObviousxx wrote:
If anything, she should have take it out on Carol.I agree. But she doesn't, and that is why I think Susan agreed to Carol having a shot at getting pregnant by Ross. (The alternative is that Carol cheated on Susan.) Susan is angry in general, and she really doesn't want Ross there at all, partly because she is insecure in her relationship with Carol and is afraid that Carol will go back to Ross.
He was the father . . . had legal rights to him.There is no question about his legal rights. I don't think they are that important.
He still fathered Ben.There are a lot of people who think that if a man supplies one sperm cell, he has all sorts of rights to the child. I don't agree, and we are not going to agree about that. I believe the situation is much more complicated.
He gave him financial supportDo you have any evidence for that? I don't believe Carol ever asked for child support. She assumed complete responsibility for the baby, and Ross could be as involved or as uninvolved as he wished.
Susan didn't have the right to come in and try to take his place.Ross's place will always be as someone who does not actually live with Ben and is, at best, a part-time parent. Susan is going to be a full-time parent and she has made a commitment to that.Ross very quickly claims ownership of a child that he only learned about earlier that day. From Susan's point of view, she has made a commitment to raise the child, and Ross is trying to push her out of an equal relationship with the child.Ross does not blame Carol for leaving him, but he – quite irrationally but quite humanly – does blame Susan, and his hostility toward her is clear. (I get the impression that you also blame Susan. We are not going to agree about that.) Hostility goes in both directions between Susan and Ross.We are really not going to agree because you have this idea that a biological father has very large rights regardless of the situation. I don't agree.I sympathize with Susan. I don't believe she agreed to raise a child by her lover's ex-husband, but somehow it happened. I think that Susan has very good reasons to be angry, and I don't think that she is a bitch. Susan is making a very large commitment, but Ross – and you – see her as having less of a claim to a relationship with the child than Ross does. Because of one sperm cell. Of course, we know how difficult they are to produce. share
Yeah. She's a bitch. And I'll meet ya half way and she will still be a bitch. I can sympathize with falling in love with someone off limits (married). And I can sympathize with wanting to be a parent to a child of someone you love. But where she earns the bitch tag is her treatment of Ross. Lets just assume your conjecture is right about it being Carol's decision to get pregnant by Ross. Susan still played a part in wronging him by getting involved with his wife anyway. So she's hurt. No part of that is Ross' fault. Some part of Ross being hurt is Susan's fault. The fact that she is seemingly unapologetic about it and treats him like he is an unjustified intruder is what makes her a bitch.
Oh, and a father is far more than a sperm donor. He is a genetic link to ancestry that includes grandparents among others. Knowing your family is one way of better knowing yourself. Denying that to Ben to not hurt Susan's "feelings" is extremely short sighted and puts her above others when she has no good reason to be above them.
If you want to use that argument that a father is not much more than a donated sperm cell then I will counter with Susan's love is not much more than some chemical reactions in her brain and not that big of a deal.
I commend your great responses to ppllkk. The guy is a literal idiot, sick in the head. I've almost never seen someone so sincerely dense.
sharecw_squared wrote:
But where she earns the bitch tag is her treatment of Ross.That was certainly my initial reaction, and she treats Ross very badly. But as I started to think about just what it is that Susan is so angry about, I came to see it from Susan's point of view. I'm not saying that Susan has anything like a right to treat Ross that what, but she does have good reasons to be angry. And I think Susan is driven by those, not just by being a bitch.
Susan still played a part in wronging him by getting involved with his wife anyway.We are not going to agree about that. I don't believe the situation falls under the normal "cheating" paradigm, and I don't judge either Carol or Susan.
No part of that is Ross' fault.No, it is not. It is also not Ross's fault that his high school crush – a real bitch – reappeared right after Carol moved the last of her stuff out – probably the lowest point in his life up to then – and he fell for her again when he was at his most vulnerable. Shît happens.
Some part of Ross being hurt is Susan's fault.I don't agree. Not in the sense that you can blame Susan.
The fact that she is seemingly unapologetic about itShe is angry at how this is going. This was not what she agreed to. By the time that Carol and Susan marry, she is sort of getting along with Ross.
Denying that to Ben to not hurt Susan's "feelings" is extremely short sightedI'm not sure what you mean. Carol went out of her way to involve Ross – I am quite sure over Susan's objections. And, yes, Susan is in the heat of the moment and extremely shortsighted. By the end of the first season, she has calmed down a lot. She is much more secure in her relationship with Carol and much less afraid that Carol will go back to Ross. That is quite an important reason why she does not want Ross around. Similar to Emily not wanting Rachel around. Both very normal reactions.
and puts her above others when she has no good reason to be above them.I think her commitment to raise the child – and she is still doing that 10 years later – puts her far above the biological father. Ross is not going to agree with that, but I don't think that Ross is at all clear on what happened and what the situation really is. He thinks it is just an accidental pregnancy and here is this person horning in on his rights as the father after taking his wife away from him.If Ross understood that he has a child only because Carol and Susan wanted to raise a child and committed to it, he might, after little time, come to understand why Susan is angry.Carol is not going to explain to him that it wasn't accidental because what she did was, to put it mildly, highly questionable.We are going to disagree about that.
If you want to use that argument that a father is not much more than a donated sperm cellI am not arguing that. I am arguing that it depends on the circumstances. You, and a lot of people, have the almost religious belief that a man has very serious rights just because of his one sperm cell. I don't agree, and we are not going to agree about that. share
Somehow I get the feeling this person has a lot in common with Susan and is taking this debate a little too personally. They're way out of touch with the reality of parental laws
Right, she doesn't. She takes it out on Ross because she is a jealous bitch. She had no right to take it out on Ross just because she was insecure.
Legal rights are important. Otherwise there would be no laws against men/women kidnapping children they've abused or neglected.
And you're right, we won't agree, but gladly, the law sees it my way The LAW recognizes a father's rights unless they're abusive and/or neglectful. The law always sides with the biological parents in cases where the child is cared for, regardless of how you feel about sperm donors No one went to a sperm bank here; Ross didn't sign over his rights: Ross was Ben's biological and legally recognized father 😬 It might not be "difficult" for Ross to "produce a sperm cell", but he still did and Susan couldn't.
It didn't specifically say he did, but why did it have to? Ross was a stand up guy. He loved Ben more than anything. Of course he would have financially supported him. There's no question there.
Ross didn't try to push Susan out. He only wanted to be a part of HIS SON'S life. He knew his relationship with Carol was over, so he knew that he'd have to share custody. He was already heartbroken about his marriage ending and now he was afraid he might not ever get to know the child he helped create. I am in no way saying he was completely innocent, but he had more of a right to be bitter and insecure than Susan did; Carol loved her, Carol was married to her, Ben lived with them most of the time. That doesn't mean she gets to take Ross' place. It. Means. She. Is. The. Step. Parent. Not only technically, but legally. Ross never signed over his rights, so BEN WAS HIS SON. BEN WAS SUSAN'S STEP-SON!
You can talk in circles about how you "feel" it should be until the end of time, but legally speaking you. are. wrong.
Go ahead and type another essay, the law will still disagree with you And I'm done, because I know I'm right, and repeating myself to someone with a warped sense of reality over and over is kind of pointless
(& I still believe Susan was a bitch)
MissCaptainObviousxx wrote:
She had no right to take it out on Ross just because she was insecure.Of course she didn't have a "right." I have never said that she did. But she did have legitimate reasons to react as she did. She is not just a bitch.
He only wanted to be a part of HIS SON'S life.Of course I don't blame Ross. He has no idea what is going on, but he is quick to assert his priority over Susan's, and she reacts to that. You are going to agree with him. I understand why Susan doesn't.
Carol: No, I mean it's not Geller.Ross: What, it's gonna be Helen Willick?Carol: No, actually, um, we talked about Helen Willick-Bunch.Ross: Well, wait a minute, wha- why is she in the title?Susan: It's my baby too.Ross: Oh, 's'funny, really? Um, I don't remember you making any sperm.Susan: Yeah, and we all know what a challenge that is!
There's no question there.Carol says that Ross can be as involved or uninvolved as he wants. Child support is never mentioned. You are turning Carol into a real bitch if she got pregnant deliberately and then asked for child support.One reason that I believe the pregnancy was deliberate is precisely that Carol does not ask Ross for any money.
You can talk in circles about how you "feel" it should be until the end of time,No. Actually, I'm talking about how Susan feels.
but legally speaking you. are. wrong.Certainly. It doesn't seem to ever come to court because Carol isn't asking for anything. It is an unusual situation, and all that I am saying is that Susan has very legitimate reasons to be angry, and she expresses that anger in a quite normal, human way.
Biology wins,We disagree about that, but don't confuse our disagreement about that with how Susan feels and why she feels that way. share
TL;DR
The law agrees with me
And Susan is still a bitch.
MissCaptainObviousxx wrote:
The law agrees with meI think that I have agreed with that three times. If you had actually read what I've written above, you would know that. share
Sorry, not here to read essays on why men are only sperm donors
shareMissCaptainObviousxx wrote:
Sorry, not here to read essays on why men are only sperm donorsWOW.You have really serious reading comprehension problems.Of course, I have never said anything like that. I have been talking about how Susan sees a specific and unusual situation.The point – not that you will understand it if you don't by now – is not that men are just sperm donors, but that Susan wanted the baby's father to be just a sperm donor, not her lover's ex-lover. I think the reasons should be obvious to you.Somehow, it did not work out the way she wanted and expected, and that is why she is angry, not because she is just a bitch.I find it strange that you cannot at all empathize with her position, but there are a lot of people who post here who just can't put themselves in anyone else's shoes. share
[deleted]
catbookss wrote:
She doesn't. She said very clearly in her previous post "TL;DR," which means "too long, didn't read."I said the same thing in earlier posts. If she believes that is what I am saying, her reading comprehension is almost nonexistent.
you have repeatedly said all Ross did was produce one sperm cell.In this particular case, that is true. This is quite an unusual case. I am not suggesting general rules.I am just saying that Susan has legitimate reasons to be upset and angry. That causes me to change what I think about her behavior. If it doesn't for you, then it just doesn't.My formulation is echoing what Ross said:
Susan: It's my baby too.Ross: Oh, 's'funny, really? Um, I don't remember you making any sperm.
Yes, including you.I don't suppose you'd care to give an example of that? share
I find it strange that you cannot at all empathize with her position, but there are a lot of people who post here who just can't put themselves in anyone else's shoes.
Cursedchild13 wrote:
Ironically, Susan never put herself in Ross's Shoes.That is absolutely true. It is a lot easier to see someone else's point of view when you are not deeply emotionally involved yourself.Susan is quite focused on her own situation. She is afraid that Carol will go back to Ross. (Carol described Susan as "still totally paranoid.") That is one reason why she does not want Ross around. She sees Ross as trying to put her in third place as the person who doesn't have a biological claim on the child in spite of her very long-term commitment. Since I believe she made a commitment to raise a child with Carol before Carol got pregnant, she sees the child as "her child too" in spite of her lack of creation of sperm cells.Carol is not concerned about Ross's feelings because she did not want Ross as the father. From her point of view, this situation should never have come up. But it did because Carol insisted on Ross as the father.I am not claiming that Susan is a saint. Just that she isn't a bitch, and she has good reasons to be angry. Not necessarily good reasons to be angry at Ross, but to be upset and frustrated and angry in general.I don't think there are any saints in this program. Ross never seems to understand what he did to Emily in London. He never manages to put himself in her position and understand how she must've felt. Humiliated in front of her friends and family at her wedding, and humiliated the next day after swallowing her pride and going to the airport to join Ross. Ross then put a lot of effort into persuading Emily to move to New York when, in fact, he was not serious about giving up seeing Rachel and building a life with Emily.Rachel seems oblivious to the fact that she is causing a great deal of mental distress to Ross for seven years. She pursues her own agenda without, it seems, ever putting herself in Ross's shoes.Rachel doesn't get back with Ross, but she does not end it completely. She always leaves Ross a little hope and that prevents him from getting on with his life.So, Susan is not exactly the only person who does not take someone else's feelings into account in the midst of their own emotional turmoil. What Ross did to Emily is far worse than what Susan did to Ross. And Ross claimed to love Emily. What Rachel did to Ross is not even in the same ballpark. And she also, on occasion, claimed to love Ross.Susan does not claim to love Ross; she just doesn't want him there. share
Loved that post. (symbolically raising my glass). Here's to you!
And you're right........you are what you do. No matter your feelings. And Susan be a bitch :)
That was for MissCaptainObviousXX. Shoulda said that. This thread structure can be weird
sharecw_squared wrote:
...you are what you do. No matter your feelings.So you never take into account the stress that a person is under. You don't care where they're coming from and understanding that is not going to change your mind.Well, that is one way to be. share
Oh I care. But, when you are in the wrong, having legitimate reasons to be upset do not give you a pass on being wrong AND being *beep* about it. That's just......... bitchy.
sharePlease dont waste anymore time arguing with this poster.
They, along with certain others on this board, are incapable of seeing things from a normal human point of view, their heads too into the fantasy land that the characters live in. They are obsessed and manage to find arguments for everything you say, even though they are usually wrong.
You'll never win, because theyve got an obsession though it will be you that is right.
Its sad and pathetic. rather than argue, pity them.
*NiVaLs oF fAyGo**
Please dont waste anymore time arguing with this poster.
They, along with certain others on this board, are incapable of seeing things from a normal human point of view, their heads too into the fantasy land that the characters live in. They are obsessed and manage to find arguments for everything you say, even though they are usually wrong.
You'll never win, because theyve got an obsession though it will be you that is right.
Its sad and pathetic. rather than argue, pity them.
catbookss wrote:
As a result I deleted my post and didn't post a reply to Ppllkk,Good move. You made a fool out of yourself because although the other poster said that she didn't read my last post, I have been saying the same thing all along. She must've read something to give her the idea that I'm saying:
Sorry, not here to read essays on why men are only sperm donorsOf course I'm not saying that, and that demonstrates a distressing lack of reading comprehension on her part.I invite anyone who disagrees to copy and paste from my posts, hopefully including enough context. What I have been saying is that Susan wishes that the father were an anonymous sperm donor and wishes that Ross were an anonymous sperm donor. From her point of view, quite a reasonable wish.By putting me on ignore you also avoid having to come up with an example of my not being willing to see something from someone else's point of view. Very convenient.
and have now put him on my ignore list.Yea.I may well continue to post replies to your posts lest your nonsense go unanswered. Whether you see it or not, is beside the point.
although I do feel some compassion for whatever it is that causes them to react in such extreme ways and be unable to prevent themselves from exhibiting these reactions, which includes, unfortunately, abuse towards others on this board who simply disagree with them.Well, what causes me to react is people who do not have the understanding of the way that people are that I would expect from a high school student. Yes, it is infuriating. How can someone be that ridiculous?Can you give some examples of what you regard as my "abuse" of you? Oh, I forgot. You cannot copy and paste, and so you cannot supply examples to back up your claims. This seems to come up all the time with you.I would be interested in seeing just what you regard as "abuse." You, of course, lied about what I said to you a while ago in a private message. You lied twice about it. share
cw_squared wrote:
having legitimate reasons to be upset do not give you a pass on being wrong AND being *beep* about it. That's just......... bitchy.It seems that I am less judgmental about what people do under stress.
But, when you are in the wrong,That is your judgment. Susan is not thinking about what is right and wrong in the abstract. She is thinking that this is not what she wanted or agreed to. share
Yep. I judge people on what they DO. We all have stress but you can't just do what you want because you're upset. And AGAIN the bitch part comes from doubling down on the wrong by not only sleeping with his wife but treating him like he had done something to her.
So she doesn't think about what's right and wrong and instead how she feels. Sounds pretty selfish to me. So, yes I judge the character. I don't think she should go to jail or anything . But she is a bitch.
I notice that there is no response from ppllkk to this...
share