MovieChat Forums > Frasier (1993) Discussion > Who did you side with: Niles or Mel?

Who did you side with: Niles or Mel?

posted 8 years ago by booklady1-1
30 replies | jump to latest

I personally think Mel was a shrew about the whole thing and was glad Niles ended up yelling at her in front of her friends.

Yes, she royally got screwed over. She married someone whom she thought was the one, only to have it fall apart within a few days because he had been in love with someone else all along. Niles never should have married her in that situation - he plainly stated to Daphne that he never would have married Mel had he known he had a chance with Daphne. That is horribly unfair to Mel that he would marry her without her ever knowing about his feelings for Daphne - she had a right to know, so that she could decide for herself whether to marry him. But at the same time, why did she marry him after only a few months? There was CLEARLY still a lot they didn't know about each other. She wasn't some naive teenager but a mature adult, a doctor for crying out loud. She should have known better than to marry someone who was just coming off of a divorce and whom she really didn't know that well.

And I'm surprised Niles tolerated Mel making such derogatory comments about Daphne, calling her a "whore" and contemptuously saying "your little English muffin." He had always gotten pissed whenever anyone so much as raised their voice to Daphne, and here Mel was saying these horrible things and he didn't defend her against that. Yes, Mel had a right to be upset, but Daphne hadn't really done anything wrong. Niles was stupid for marrying Mel when he loved Daphne, but really, in the situation they were in at the end of season 7, what should they have done? Stay with the people who were their second choice? Should Daphne have married Donny knowing she wanted Niles? Should Niles have stayed with Mel knowing she was no more than a consolation prize? Why would anyone want to be with someone when they know that person would rather be with someone else?

And Mel was just vindictive in the way she dragged things out. All for what, her reputation? She should have just let him go and not tried to keep up phony appearances. Let him be happy with the one he really loves rather than make everyone's lives miserable when no one was malicious towards you. It's ridiculous that she was trying to shoehorn Niles into spending his and Daphne's first New Year's Eve as a couple at a party with Mel instead of with Daphne. She was just being a shrew at this point. No one had meant to hurt her, but she was being deliberately malicious.

[–] pritch636 8 years ago

Mel was one of those characters I love to hate
quite awful as a person.

controlling, manipulative and selfish.

maris version 2.

[–] Tigeranne 8 years ago

Mel was always such a bitch in her prior interactions with Daphne--I always thought that maybe she kind of suspected that Niles had feelings there...

I agree that Mel was the injured party, but no way should Niles have allowed her to emasculate him for so long and to push Daphne aside and make her feel like the secret girlfriend. It shows that she really cared for Niles when she put up with it at all.

SO, whose side am I on? I choose Niles. I just have always loved him--he is my favorite character on the show.

[–] Box_Office_Now 8 years ago

Mel was always such a bitch in her prior interactions with Daphne

But she started to mellow out. Forget the episode but someone asked for a drink and Mel said I have been here long enough to know how it is done. She then said: Daphne get us a drink. There was a pause and Mel said just kidding and jumped up and got the drinks.

The fact that some hated the Mel character just tells me she played the part very good.

[–] Rolltide (964) 4 years ago

Actually it was coffee. And it was a nice moment of humor and self awareness.

[–] Miyagido (2944) 8 months ago

Coffee is a drink.

[–] shrilltrills 8 years ago

Mel was a snooty bitch period. Remember when Frasier invited her over for brunch, and the first thing she said was that Eddie needed to be put outside so they could eat? She was a guest in their home, who the hell was she to demand that they put their dog outside? No one liked her (with Niles as the obvious exception). And she was manipulative as well - she used all those subtle phrasings to drive Niles to run for Corkmaster earlier that same episode. She could have simply told him that he needs to be more assertive, but instead she was so shifty and manipulative about it and manipulated him to make him think the whole thing was his idea. It seems like she was basically Maris 2.0. Frasier even said with her snobbery and controlling of Niles, she reminded him of Maris.

[–] Rolltide (964) 4 years ago

Niles wanted to be cork master. Why are you acting like it was a bad thing for him? Oh my god she goaded him to run for something he dearly wanted? Bitch! He needed to stop acting like Frasier light. He needed to start acting as an equal.

All Mel did was remind him of some basic facts, like he had been a member of the wine club longer than Frasier and he knew just as much about wine.

Who cares what Frasier said? He was butt hurt over not being cork master. He lost fair and square in the taste off and was bitter about it.

[–] louiseculmer 8 years ago

Mel. Niles was the one who jilted her, it was a horrible thing to do. under the circumstances, it's not surprising she called daphne a whore. It's all rather sordid. any woman would be angry in that situation. she clearly wanted to make Niles suffer for messing her about like that, and i don't blame her. did niles think he could just abandon her like that? But the whole scenario is ridiculous really - why couldn't niles and daphne have made up their minds before they got to the marrying someone else stage?

this is why i generally prefer the earlier seasons of sitcoms, by the seventh season things are always getting too silly as they run out of ideas.

[–] SerenityInSpace 8 years ago

it's not surprising she called daphne a whore.

Nah, it's just typical to blame the women in that situation. Niles left her. Daphne didn't force him.

she clearly wanted to make Niles suffer for messing her about like that, and i don't blame her.

She lost even more dignity in the process though.

I completely get Mel's anger. Completely She was screwed over. She should've walked away with her head help high though, but instead, she went the petty revenge route.

[–] Rockhound6165 8 years ago

I didn't like Mel the person but when it came down to the divorce, I sided with her. What Niles did in both marrying her then ditching her for Daphne was horrible. As condescending and churlish as Mel tended to be, she loved Niles(even told Daphne that she was crazy about him) and didn't deserve that treatment. Was she vindictive after the split? You bet she was but did you blame her? And Frasier's speech at the reception was down right mean spirited as well.

[–] shrilltrills 8 years ago

What Niles did in both marrying her then ditching her for Daphne was horrible.

I agree. But she made things worse for everyone. And she seemed to be SO concerned with appearances, holding up that charade of a marriage for weeks and weeks. Someone with self-respect I feel would have just let him go and been honest with everyone about what happened.

Frasier's speech at the reception was down right mean spirited as well.

I don't blame him for that. That speech was not voluntary. Mel had basically threatened him, telling him she won't forget his role in breaking up her marriage, and then immediately announced to everyone that he was going to be giving a toast in their honor - she blindsided him. Was he supposed to be happy with her? And the toast was all about keeping up appearances and making it look like Mel and Niles were a loving couple - which Frasier DID do. None of Mel's high society friends had any idea that Frasier was actually taking subtle jabs at Mel and was referring to Daphne rather than Mel when he spoke of the love of his brother's life and said he and his father couldn't be happier with Niles' choice.

[–] Helena727 8 years ago

Mel, even tho the character's dislikeable attributes were given more airtime than her likeables.

There's a scene (before they're married) in which she tells Daphne that Niles doesn't really know how great he is and that she (Mel) wants to help him understand that and help him become his best self, a more confident and self-accepting person; she's very tender, human, and insightful in that moment, and it's clear that beneath all of *her* insecurities (which manifest as caring about her social position) she's a decent and vulnerable person.

There's also a moment after the break-up in which she refers, with real pain, to their honeymoon-that-wasn't -- it's clear that she really loved him and was looking forward to a life with him. So I think she must be forgiven for every controlling and mean-spirited thing she did after their break-up -- she was in a massive amount of pain, made all the more intense because Niles -- generally honest and self-aware -- *hadn't* been honest with himself early enough, meaning that something akin to carelessness/recklessness (kind of unforgiveable for a psychiatrist with integrity) caused him to inflict anguish on her. You cannot underestimate how much Mel suffered in all of this.

(And speaking of psychiatrists with integrity: Niles suffered at the hands of Dr. Schenkman, who had a reputation as a good, scrupulous person and a good doctor... If ever there were a cautionary tale, a "Don't do unto others what was done to you" -- yet he did.)

"All you need to start an asylum is an empty room and the right kind of people."

[–] Rolltide (964) 4 years ago

"There's a scene (before they're married) in which she tells Daphne that Niles doesn't really know how great he is and that she (Mel) wants to help him understand that and help him become his best self, a more confident and self-accepting person; she's very tender, human, and insightful in that moment, and it's clear that beneath all of *her* insecurities (which manifest as caring about her social position) she's a decent and vulnerable person."

I totally agree. Daphne was giving her a massage to relieve a headache when she said that.

Niles shared many of her irritating idiosyncrasies so he could not complain about those.

Remember when they had a get to know you brunch for Mel? She enters the room, complains about the dog being in the room when they are eating and in a matter of 2 minutes is being considered a horrible person. Frasier was still butt hurt about losing his grand puba status with the wine club and Roz was never going to be best friends with her.

[–] forthesafetyofpuppies 8 years ago

Mel.

What Niles and Daphne did was a thousand times worse. Niles didn't have to go along with it. He just wouldn't have gotten his divorce and perhaps would have had to sacrifice some of his precious social stock. And Daphne was a b1tch for attacking Niles about his desire to placate Mel. Niles was a complete doormat.

___
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qssvnjj5Moo

[–] Rolltide (964) 4 years ago

"What Niles and Daphne did was a thousand times worse. Niles didn't have to go along with it. He just wouldn't have gotten his divorce and perhaps would have had to sacrifice some of his precious social stock. And Daphne was a b1tch for attacking Niles about his desire to placate Mel. Niles was a complete doormat."

I thought the same thing. Daphne was demanding a normal dating relationship with Niles before he was even divorced. It was as if Mel was less than human.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] A_girl_is_noone 8 years ago

I agree. I always wanted Niles and Daphne together, but I hated the way they went about it. They didn't make Mel and Donny unlikeable enough for me to be okay with them being cheated on and humiliated. Nobody deserves that really. Niles and Daphne should have ended things with Mel and Donny respectfully and THEN moved forward.

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Rolltide (964) 4 years ago

You have no insight at all. Mel was nothing like Maris and had no motivation to marry a man she did not love. She did not need Niles for his wealth she was perhaps even wealthier. Your puppet argument makes no sense and you talk about Mel as of she is less than human.

I absolutely believe that she loved him for who he was and that they had much in common.

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Rolltide (964) 3 years ago

Maris threatened Mel's practice by claiming her weight gain was caused by a neck surgery that nicked her thyroid. Maris told Mel should back off if Mel broke up with Niles and Mel refused. She obviously loved him.

Your post makes no sense. What motivation does Mel have for dating Niles much less marrying him if she had no affection for him?

As for their "charade of a marriage". It was not! It was Niles who ruined their marriage by running off with Daphne.

Regarding the corkmaster episode Mel was not interested in Frasier's feelings. She wanted Niles to have it for his sake duh. It is because she cared about Niles that she would be irked that Frasier would just assume Niles would support him.

[–] Rolltide (964) 3 years ago

Maris was a person who inherited wealth and privilege and probably did not work a day in her life. Mel was a successful surgeon.

While Maris belittled Niles and always made him feel like a dependent on her wealth Mel was a peer, an equal who worked to help Niles achieve some of his aspirations like being corkmaster.

I see very little comparison and an intelligent person should also see that. Niles and Mel's marriage was not a sham or a charade. Why would an intelligent and successful woman like Mel marry a man she did not care for? It makes no sense.

[–] LolaVerdon (130) a year ago

Mel was treated horribly as was Donnie. The writers really screwed the pooch with this storyline. I wonder what David and Jane thought of how their characters behaved.