MovieChat Forums > Singles (1992) Discussion > Cliff: such a stereotype

Cliff: such a stereotype

posted 17 years ago by mirello67
36 replies | jump to latest

I absolutely hated the way Cliff was portrayed. The movie made it seem like all grunge musicians were self-centered morons. It is such a stereotype that is a actually the opposite of the truth. He shouldn't have been a swell guy either. To describe his character:

Free Spirited

Semi-depressed-He should have been more into himself that way not like the jerk way like in the movie

Unsure about his future

His character plot should have been to realize that Janet loves him and that he should love her back.

I know this could be a stereotype to, but at least it would be a more accurate one.
Basically he should be a Kurt Cobain type character accept not as extreme and to the point where Cliff can be understandable and possible to relate to.

"do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?" -Jackie Chan

[–] YesthatChristine 17 years ago

I don't know...I was sitting there through my re-watching of the movie thinking, "Oh man, Cliff is EXACTLY my old 90s boyfriend...down to hair, clothes, speech patterns." Sure, there were lots of grunge musicians in the 90s who weren't like Cliff...but there were also several who were JUST like him.

[–] cowy4 16 years ago

Cliff was really based on Jeff Ament of Pearl Jam. He is even wearing Jeff’s clothes. Jeff had a think for amazon looking women and so does Cliff in this movie, but other than that Cliff just acted like a self centered jerk like many men in general.

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] cormac_zoso 13 years ago

well i know this is years later but you're right christine, people can say 'that's a stereotype' but there are reasons for stereotypes ... some people are stereotypes or do stereotypical things ... sometimes it's unavoidable ... like when you tell a friend after a bad relationship or a death in the family that 'it will get better', 'time heals all wounds', etc ... why are you saying that anyway? sounds like you're on some damn sitcom and expect this to all be resolved in 22 minutes or less ... but if it's in a movie people say 'that's a stereotype' ... yep it is and life is chockful of them so what's ya gonna do?

and esp when someone like cliff is in a particular 'tribe' environment, such as living the grunge life on the edge in seattle, he is going to say he's different, not just another grunge band as he says in the interview, but ultimately, you either are or you're not ... and if you're not, why do you dress, talk, and act like all the other grunge bands? because you want to be grunge, you want to belong to even a marginal group like this or whatever and so you adopt mannerisms, dress, etc to fit in ... even tho you say you're not ... all part of the stupid game of 'belonging'

there are reasons i live alone ... this is one ...

like your nick btw ... always wondered what happened to yo christine ... you certainly were "that" Christine ;)

[–] YesthatChristine 13 years ago

Haha, congrats on interpreting an internet handle correctly without vocal inflecting or punctuation ;D

And I second your post whole-heartedly.

[–] Collectible-PEZ-Dispenser 8 years ago

Well, I think some musicians are actually douchey idiots like Cliff and I feel for Janet, because some elements of her suffering and their relationship are realistic (actually pretty much everything except for the "bless you thing.") However, I think the Cliff and Russell characters (from another Cameron Crowe movie "Almost Famous") subtly show off Cameron's real life envy of musicians. Are some musicians better-looking, cooler, and more successful with women than him? Sure.

But the whole thing is ridiculous and catty considering he himself ended up with fame, money, a lot of famous friends, rockstars' groupies, he went to countless amazing concerts, and married a female musician like way out of his league. Plus, being a writer and director, he had way more privacy than most famous musicians, so maybe he should have chilled and let the whole "dickhead rockstar" thing go.

[–] buzzcartier 14 years ago

I don't think that Cliff was a grunge stereotype at all.

SPOILERS!!!

According the the record review that Eddie read, Cliff had been on the Seattle scene for many years and the reviewer was hoping that he would just go away.

The reviewer had mentioned Cliff's "dick-swinging" music and its clichéd machismo, etc..

Cliff was an old-school cock rocker who had to change because his kind of music had been made obsolete by "grunge".

Cliff attempted to adapt and may have looked grunge, but he was just a poseur trying to make it on the scene.

I'm not from Seattle, but I was in bands in New Jersey when grunge hit, and there were a lot of metal douchebags who tossed their eyeliner & leather trousers and rushed out to buy flannels and pre-ripped jeans.

Cheers...

Buzz Cartier
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3496526/

"Filthy Rich Filthy Uncle Phil"
Writer / Director / Producer

[–] Howlin Wolf 14 years ago

Not to call them poseurs because they're awesome, but "Alice in Chains" began as a glam band, or so I read...

Love United. Hate Glazers.

[–] buzzcartier 14 years ago

Yeah, I like 'em too.

They used to be Alice N' Chains and, if you find some pictures, you will see that they most certainly were glam.

I didn't like them when I first heard them in '91.

I thought they sounded like a hair band who modified their sound to to fit into the grunge scene.

Of course I completely dig 'em now, even with their new singer.

Cheers...

Buzz Cartier
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3496526

"Filthy Rich Filthy Uncle Phil"
Writer / Director / Producer

[–] Howlin Wolf 14 years ago

!

Love United. Hate Glazers.

[–] DavidStHubbinsUSA 14 years ago

Most of the bands here that became grunge gods were metal bands first. I grew up here in Seattle and played music from the mid 80's to the mid 90's.

That detuned sound evolved because metal became too glam and everyone wanted heavier guitars. He was like alot of the guys here. I knew and know a bunch of em. We were all free spirits and lived for the day for sure. Clothes were cool and easy cause we could wear anything and had been wearing flannel since we were kids. we still do.

Guys in the downtown scene were about the music and some were kinda airheads. Like Cliff.

BTW AIC was and is still my favorite band. They really were more a metal band than grunge. There was a fine line there. They were different. We just called it all metal until that "word" was published....But before Vedder and when Woods was still alive Pearl Jam was a metal band.

Of course they were Mother Love Bone then.

[–] Lady_Elaine_Fairchild 9 years ago

Buzzcartier ==couldn't have said it better he was def more David Lee Roth then Kurt Cobain.

[–] froggyandtoadie 8 years ago

Right....because ripped jeans and flannels didn't exist until grunge hit. Wtf?

[–] Howlin Wolf 14 years ago

Stereotypes become that way because people share common elements that have a grain of truth to them... Plus, Matt Dillon as Cliff was hilarious, and the best part of the film, I thought!

Maybe the other characters were meant to be the more serious ones, and Cliff just filled the 'comic relief' spot? If that's the case, then I have to say, it worked!

Love United. Hate Glazers.

[–] buzzcartier 14 years ago

Cliff was absolutely the best part of the flick.

Kyra Sedgwick almost made Singles unwatchable for me, but Cliff saved the day.

Last time I watched it, I just forwarded through Kyra's scenes.

Even though Cliff was kind of a jerk, he was not a total a-hole and he truly did identify as an artist, so even though he may have been a douche, he was a sincere douche.

One of the first things he says when Bridget Fonda comes by is

SPOILERS!!!

that he still sees other people, so he's polyamorous and up front about it rather than being a cheater.

I wonder if Cliff knew that Hendrix did not write "Hey Joe"?

Cheers...

Buzz Cartier
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3496526

"Filthy Rich Filthy Uncle Phil"
Writer / Director / Producer

[–] Howlin Wolf 14 years ago

Yeah; Cliff did believe in his lifestyle, he was just a bit confused...

... and you could say the same about almost every other character in the film, too... He belonged with that clique.

Love United. Hate Glazers.

[–] buzzcartier 14 years ago

Yeah, Cliff did belong with that bunch.

I only saw Singles within the past few months.

It's pretty far out that Matt Dillon played a grunge guy and then later played Charles Bukowski (as his alter ego Chinaski) since I totally dig both grunge and Bukowksi.

Cheers...

Buzz Cartier
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3496526

"Filthy Rich Filthy Uncle Phil"
Writer / Director / Producer

[–] PussyCrusher_Principal 13 years ago

a couple of you mentioned that a)Cliff was based on Jeff Ament and b)a reviewer wished he would go away, as he'd been on the scene so long and c)he was an old-school rocker who was trying to fit into the grunge scene

It seems to me, this may have been an in-joke on Pearl Jam (they were in the movie, after all): They were called poseurs (by Cobain, for one), they had been on the scene, in various bands, for years, and they actually were closer to an 80s metal band when they were Mother Love Bone (not to bore you, as you may know this already, but Ament and Stone Gossard were in a band, with a few others, named Green River. They saw a Jane's Addiction show, and while Ament and Gossard loved it, and wanted to take Green River in that direction, the others hated it. This caused a split; the other guys, Mark Arm and Steve Turner, formed the punk leaning, Stooges-like Mudhoney while Ament and Gossard formed Mother Love Bone, who fell somewhere between 80s metal and Jane's Addiction theatricality. And when Andrew Wood, MLB's singer, OD'd, Pearl Jam was born.). So, I'm sure the guys in Pearl Jam were well aware of how some viewed them, and decided to have a few laughs at their own expense, and to "take the piss" out of their critics (if I used that phrase incorrectly I apologize to all you Brits).

Anyone agree? Or even care?

"How do you feel?"
"Like the Kling-Klang King of the Rim-Ram Room!"

[–] buzzcartier 13 years ago

I didn't know that Pearl Jam have been considered poseurs.

I do know that Alice in Chains used to be a hair metal band called Alice-N-Chains.

I would think that there must have been a lot of guys at the time who threw away their lipstick and put on a flannel.

I would surmise that you're correct they did decide to have a few laughs at their own expense.

Cheers...

Buzz Cartier
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3496526

"Filthy Rich Filthy Uncle Phil" - Writer / Director / Producer
Reviews (w/ SPOILERS!!!):
http://www.trashcity.org/BLITZ/BLIT2233.HTM
http://www.moviecynics.com/filthy-rich-filthy-uncle-phil-2010-independ ent-film-review/
http://www.buzzcartier.com

[–] badponymedicine 13 years ago

Never was a big Cobain fan, since he nearly got me punched one night in Aberdeen (this is when they were still playing the Aberdeen Eagles and the Polish Club). He liked, apparently, to get fights started, and I was walking up to the bar (cocktail waitressing...ew...in the WORST dive) and the first punch came right by my face. "WHOA! I'm in the WRONG place!" and backed off for the bouncers to take care of it.

[–] compact_disc_rack 12 years ago

AIC didn't make do a makeover overnight. They gradually evolved from a Motley Crue/Guns N Roses-kinda band into a sludgy modern metal band. And they even signed to a major label a good while before that grunge thing broke out. That's why they were still respected. And as mentioned already, even at the height of the grunge craze they were clearly more of a conventional metal band than any other of those bands. It just so happens they were from Seattle, and shared some influences with the other bands of the town, so they were called grunge. It's not their fault. They didn't even make an effort to cling onto it. By 1993 they were already moving away from that style.

[–] johnston.scot 10 years ago

The notion that Cliff Poncier was a poser jumping on the grunge bandwagon is nonsensical. There was no grunge bandwagon to jump on when the movie was made.

Citizen Dick is (fictionally) one of the bands that started grunge in the first place.

[–] Piperson 9 years ago

That was Hendrix's guitar riff though.

[–] mikebourkefan 13 years ago

i hated his sterotype character to he should have goten back together with janet as soon as he relized his selfishness was a mistake

the oc\ ben\adam fan

[–] MrBook_ 13 years ago

Remember that there was no stereotype of a grunge musician when this movie was made. I think it was just meant to be a stereotype of a rock musician, and a LOT of those guys are like that. Egotistical, dim, immature, and unthoughtful about almost everything. Remember the "alpha male a$$holes" that Enid complained about in Ghost World? There's your basic rock musician stereotype. It's not a grunge thing, those guys have existed as long as there's been rock music, and presumably longer.

Get on up.

[–] nutsberryfarm 13 years ago

cliff was chill. he held 3 jobs. and played in a band. and has his own take on things. his sentimental musings about the plane noise was very astute. very zen.

"It's for the pain. Rarely touch the stuff...Can I have another?"

[–] slatesphanboi 12 years ago

No way Cliff was cool! Maybe he was not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but at least he tried!

If his band 'Citizen Dick' actually existed I would indeed listen to them!!!

[–] nutsberryfarm 12 years ago

cliff was so dull he was sharp.

'A piece of WHAT, Emmet? THE LAND? WHAT AM I A FARMER?!'-Wynn Duffy

[–] TeaBunny 12 years ago

Cliff is exactly like 90's band dudes. And the whole movie is not based on guys like that; there are young working professionals in it who are not grungy at all. You have to have some 90's band dudes in there, they existed. I knew them.

------------------------
"Love means never having to say you're ugly." - the Abominable Dr. Phibes

[–] nutsberryfarm 10 years ago

chris cornell still sounds like him, when he says things like: 'what do you think jesus would twitter, 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' or 'has anyone seen judas? he was here a minute ago.'

We have a pool and a pond...pond be good for you.