who cares what the south thinks about Lincoln
You must be from the enlightened North to say that. I love how those who claim to be the tolerant and all knowing are the ones in fact who stereo type and don't want discussion or debate. If someone had said "who cares what blacks think about something" they would be instantly jumped and labeled racists, but it's ok when referring to the South. I love the double standards. Next the arguement will be to discredit anyone who disagrees with you by trying to make them seem ignorant and you are the enlightened one who knows more. It's the typical elitist way of handling things. I picture you literally covering your ears so you can't hear what anybody else says when you say a statement like that. It's comments like that over the years that has lead the people here to say enough.
Secession is the wrong word, too. The southern states had used tricks for years before the Civil War to hold onto levers of power in spite of having a population of 9 million in the states that would make up the Confederacy (and 4 million of those 9 were slaves) to 31 million in the states that stayed in the union. They didn't trust majority rule. Now in the USA the minority is in firm control of the government. More Americans voted for the Democratic nominee for president and for Democratic senate candidates. But through tricks and undemocratic means, the minority holds all the levers of power. Secession is anti-democratic because the idea is to get out as soon as democracy reflects the will of a majority of the people. California leaving would be to express the OPPOSITE emotion: leaving because of anger over the will of the majority no longer mattering.
I have read your posts and you are well versed and articulate. I don't agree with your point of view but I'll say you are willing to discuss and debate, and in positive way. It invites good banter and discussion, so I hope to disagree in the same positive way you have given others. I disagree with the statement that through tricks and undemocratic means that Trump won. It's the same system we have had for centuries. I didn't find you posting about it before the election. Now I could be wrong bc I can't read all of your posts. There were shady things going on with this election on both sides, and some very interesting timing of stories being released against both candidates. I don't think it was just one way as you implied. I know you will point to Russians and wiki leaks. I will refer to NBC sitting on the tape of Trump till a few weeks before the election, and the women accusing Trump waiting years or decades to come out at the worst time to try and hurt him. On both sides, the timing is suspicious. You also point to Clinton getting more votes. I would point to Trump getting more states, and even more importantly, he won the overwhelming majorities of counties in the US. There are 2 huge population centers in California and New York that are overwhelming liberal. Outside of these 2 states, I contend that the rest of America would not agree with the viewpoints of the two states. Break down the election on a map, and especially if you do it by counties, there is a vast sea of red. I know it's not completely fair to take away 2 states of one candidate but not the other. But the point I am trying to make is when you say majority, I look at the map and see the majority of America did get the candidate they wanted. 2 states, no matter how big they are, do not represent the rest of the country. I also think if the election was based on popular votes, Trump would have campaigned different. There was no need for him to campaign in California or New York. Those states were going to Clinton no matter what. He understood the electoral college system better than the experienced politician and how to campaign based on the system we have had for centuries. He would have done a different style had it been based on popular vote, so saying she had the majority is true, but I also don't think it holds as much weight as you make it sound. I also don't think Clinton would have won the majority of votes had he campaigned to win the popular vote. But I can neither prove nor disprove this. I think most people outside of California would actually love for it to leave the US, as it has different values and priorities as the rest of the country. When Obama won, while I was not happy, I never chanted "not my president, protested, destroyed public and private property, threatened to leave the country, etc. I got on with my life. I didn't vote for him, but it's the system we have had.
“Elections have consequences, and at the end of the day, I won.” – President Obama to House Republican Whip Eric Cantor, January 23, 2009.
I happen to agree with quote from President Obama. With every excuse or reason the Democrats use, it sounds more like sour grapes and reminds me of the kid who doesn't get his way and throws a temper tantrum. So many young millennials have only known Obama as president, and are used to winning and getting their way. The first time on a major issue that they lose, and their reaction is disappointing, and childish. The you tube videos of people crying and threatening suicide actually made me laugh bc of the drama queen factor. Trying to draw attention to themsleves and simply over reacting. Had people done this when Obama won, they would be called racists and closed minded. I don't put you in this category, as you seem mature and experienced. But saying that Trump is so extreme and vile that we must threaten the people in the electoral college with death threats, and riot simply is over reacting and throwing a temper tantrum. No one is happy when their side loses, and thinks the country will fall apart. But the behaviors exhibited this election are just beyond what is acceptable to me. Trump won in a fair election, and the recent recount efforts were just trying to delegitimize his election. He actually gained votes in the recounts that were done.
As far as California leaving, I don't think it would actually be able to survive on its own and offer the same level of services. It's not a practical idea imo. I don't even know the procedure for a state leaving the union. But if it's legal, hey it's your right to do so. Lincoln wouldn't approve of it however lol. The thing to do is either work within the law and change the system,or to get a better candidate. While we might not agree on issues, I do respect your opinion and know we both have different life experiences. Perhaps I have not seen things or experienced things you have and vice versa. For me, being told by the mainstream media how I should think and what is right and wrong based on them being so much smarter than the rest of us is getting old. Being told because I disagree on an issue makes me ignorant or a racist by elites who don't know anything about my state or region outside of a Saturday night live paraday makes them seem like the ignorant ones. I also know that neither myself nor my viewpoints are perfect on every issue. There are some issues I probably do not know everything about. But I am man enough to admit it unlike those who act all knowing, and tell me I just need to do what they tell me to do.
As far as the original question posted by the OP. In the South, we don't sit around with a picture of Lincoln on the dartboard. We are taught he was a great president who freed the slaves. He may not be the most popular President ever, but he isn't hated. At least not from any experiences I have seen. You are correct with debating the battle over the causes of the civil war. It isn't Lincoln that is hated, that is the subject that will cause so much debate. States rights is what most would say down here. Call it revisionist, but the winners usually write the history. But I'll stay away from that issue for now. I agree actually a lot with what you say on the subject. More than you would think. I do think though, that when people use quotes, it's a common way of discrediting someone by saying they are cherry picked or out of context. Some may have been, but I think either side could do it. It's a tricky slope to manage. Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the subject, and I wish you well!
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