MovieChat Forums > Roger & Me (1989) Discussion > Did I miss something here?

Did I miss something here?


What exactly is Fatty McMoore's deal here? He's upset with capitalism? The American way?

Did I miss something or is it not Roger Smith's given right to move his business wherever he deems necessary?

Mikey Moore could really use a class in tolerance. He seems to have a fierce dislike for anyone that shares a differing opinion or political view than his own.

Now I hear he's making another Moore classic, this time about how the Bush administration is directly profiting off of 9/11. Leave it to him to use a national crisis to try to slander the current administration he doesn't agree with.

Are we all countrymen or what? At what point do you put aside the partisanship?

I know this probably falls on made up minds and deaf ears, and it saddens me to a small extent. I'll just go find ways to mindlessly amuse myself for hopefully the next 50 some years of my average american life.

After all, who would dare blink first?

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[deleted]

i think you're wrong. i think that what michael moore is trying to say with the movie, is with what clips of people he chooses to show. and he shows many people talking about that what roger smith did is what you have to do with our system. he showed clips of people saying "go out and get other jobs". "the factories sucked anyways." and other clips about how "this happens, deal with it." anyways... and by showing all that i get the message that capitalism does suck. that is how buisnesses do have to be run. the cars they were making weren't selling as much. there is cheaper labor elsewhere. or whatever they could make more money some other way. yeah there is the problem with roger smith being so greedy, but that is what you are supposed to do in a capitalistic, free enterprise economic system. and that's why it doesn't work. to have a system that hopes all the top buisness persons are nice enough to keep with a buiness plan that makes them less money is not going to happen. maybe if people were educated enough to know that hurting other people isn't good, but still capitalism just needs to end. i think that he is saying that kind of. that's what i get from all of the clips he shows, since he never really says anything directly.
after watching the movie with the director commentary i realize that michael moore does believe in capitalism. he thinks that GM is stupid to cut jobs cause then people won't have money to buy their cars. but Flint is only one town that probably wasn't buying many cars.

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[deleted]

"Leave it to him to use a national crisis to try to slander the current administration he doesn't agree with."

Oh, so the Bush administration can PROFIT off of the crisis by selling rebuilding contracts to Haliburton, but if Moore wants to expose them for what they really are, well, we can't have THAT, can we?

"Are we all countrymen or what?"

Oh, so just because we live in the United States, we have to support the administration? Get real. If people like you were in charge, there would never have been a revolutionary war. Of course, when people like you open their ignorant speak holes, I almost wish we did live under a bunch of facists again.

"Did I miss something or is it not Roger Smith's given right to move his business wherever he deems necessary?"

Sure, it's his right. But what he did came at the cost of many jobs. Moore never held a gun to his head and demanded that he give all of the workers their jobs back.

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[deleted]

This documentary was required viewing by my business college. It depicts many troubles with economy and corporations.

Flint's problem with the economic structure was that GM was everything in terms of jobs. Literally, this documentary tells the truth about how 'one-horse-towns' go belly-up when the horse . . . dies.

Flint still stinks to this day. I have grown up in Michigan, and I can tell you that with the continuous sucking sound of manufacturing jobs and profits . . . those jobs and profits have just gone out the American drain and into many other countries. Manufacturing is on the slide in the United States, and in Michigan, things are quite ugly.

It does not help that if you wish to make decent money, you must be involved in one of the related facets of the "Big Three." In Michigan, they rule. There are no useful mass transit systems that are reliable and worthwhile in Detroit. Gee, I wonder why . . . lol.

There is no greater crime rate in Michigan as opposed to other parts of the country. Detroit receives this stigma, and it is due to the awful light it received in previous decades.

Be it Roger Smith, Al Davis, Art Modell, William Clay Ford, Henry Kissinger, Richard Nixon, or any head of anything in the United States, people at the top make bad moves. However, when the sentiment around the area is that only a small few happen to be unaffected by bad times, things become ugly.

Who can argue against those sad scenes in Flint, where the ridiculous, mostly white socialites had their mugs on camera for those ugly comments of complete and utter lack of understanding for the plight of the lower class in the area?

I'd probably not go so far as to attack Pat Boone, for it is a similar situation when someone like Mike Jordan pimps Nikes. Sweatshops are bad, but it happens. Certainly, it is not worth attacking the spokesperson.

However, those were strange times, the deep dark late 1980s. These are strange times today. This documentary is very worthwhile. While I disagree at the sensationalist attitude that Moore displayed at the Oscars . . . that was a sad choice he made . . . I believe his shockumentary films have enough merit to the points that he leaves up to the audience to decide.

That he does not firmly close the book on his pieces of work, that is a testament to care of what others think about his topics.

Moore's a good guy, but let's not make people from Michigan look any sillier than Kid Rock in those stupid beer commercials.

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It seems that the real question to be asked, particularly regarding Michael Moore's works is "Should a documentary have a bias?". I honestly doubt that anyone would argue that Moore's documentaries possess a sense of his own personal leanings. And while I personally disagree with some of his views, those leanings are a large part of what makes his films so interesting. Had he tried to keep "Roger & Me" bias-free, none of us would likely even know of him.

I can understand that bias is something that is nigh-impossible to avoid, since it tends to drive us subconciously. I think it is difficult for many people to avoid letting their own viewpoints influence their work. Take for example, editing. Regardless of what you overtly say in a documentary, the way that you put scenes together, the choice of what footage to use and what to discard, and even a choice of music can be and likely will be influenced by what message you want to convey to the audience. Even whether or not you make the film in the first place is usually driven by your own feelings and values. Especially in the realm of documentaries. (Because it's not for excessive financial gain, that's for sure.)

So, should Michael Moore have left out his own personal feelings? I don't think so. As one reviewer has said, this is Mr. Moore's most personal work to date. And I can understand why. Because it's his hometown, he obviously has an emotional attatchment to the subject matter. And it seems that his main goal with this film was to show to others what happened to his town because of GM's decision to close the factories in his hometown. And he did just that. Of course, along the way, you get a sense of who he blames for these events.

One final note: Any time you see a person who seems to be two-dimensional, and almost a caricature, remember that they are real people, and there may be more to them than you are seeing. Maybe not, but always take that into consideration.

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I just wanted to thank you, Brian_007, from the bottom of my bleeding heart for elevating the level of discussion on this board.

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[deleted]

If things in the US keep going like this, we will become a plutocracy and 99% of the public will be no better off than poor third world peoples that the US became rich off of.

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"Oh, so the Bush administration can PROFIT off of the crisis by selling rebuilding contracts to Haliburton, but if Moore wants to expose them for what they really are, well, we can't have THAT, can we"

You are such a misdirected SHEEP that I am not even going to bother typing a fact based response to this typical redundant bulls-it you liberals always spread. If you looked at facts you wouldn't make ridiculous comments like this. However, you hippie liberals hate facts. Your life is based on emotion, not logic. Go smoke a joint or trip on some acid or whatever you fools do, just don't try to discuss current affairs, you only make yourself look like a fool.

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This sounds like Karl Rove wrote it. Look, I think you've missed the point, Karl. EVERY movie is manipulative. That's what movies are: manipulative entertainment. Michael Moore's films, manipulative or not, are most likely factual. I know people REALLY don't want to believe that, but it must be true.

Think about it for a second: It is in Michael Moore's BEST INTERESTS to report the truth. Because as soon as someone can PROVE that he's lying - and believe me, discrediting Michael Moore is at the top of Bush's list for 2004 if he wants to get re-elected - then his career is over. Michael Moore has had TWO television shows before and they BOTH got cancelled because his ideas were pissing off the advertisers - corporations who want the viewer to CONSUME, not THINK. So, he can't hide behind a contract or a media conglomerate like, say Sean Hannity or Bill O'Reilly can. When THEY lie it doesn't matter. The paychecks keep rolling in. But, if the most hated man in America, Michael Moore, lied, conservatives everywhere would topple him like Saddam's statue.

They CAN'T WAIT to prove him wrong! You and I SHARE this opinion! So, why haven't they yet? Why isn't Fox News running the story: "Michael Moore LIES!" 24/7? Are they incapable? Are they too busy?

So, use your head! Why would Michael Moore (or anyone in his position for that matter) lie about what he's reporting? Are we going to bereave him because he wants to sensationalize his subject matter? Well, he's HARDLY the first to do so.

P.s. And I am NOT trying to belittle your views, friend. It just alarms me to read things like:

"Now I hear he's making another Moore classic, this time about how the Bush administration is directly profiting off of 9/11. Leave it to him to use a national crisis to try to slander the current administration he doesn't agree with."

How can you write this? Have you researched this for yourself? How do you know it's 'slander'? Research things for yourself.

Read for yourself.
Read for yourself.
Read for yourself.
Read for yourself.
Read for yourself.

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It is in Michael Moore's BEST INTERESTS to report the truth.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0310793/board/thread/2988799?d=2988799#2988799

Oh, and you do realize that many events were shifted around in "Roger and Me", don't you? And Roger Smith DID agree to a sit-down with Moore, right? Pauline Kael (of "The New Yorker") wrote such an in-depth exposé, that R&M was disqualified from being nominated for an Oscar, despite the fact that it was (at the time) the highest-grossing docu ever.

---
I'm bored. This sucks. Imbordisux.

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Being an American citizen since birth with an average IQ and countless hours logged into one medium or another, I find it hard to believe that only a few reporters or right-wing conservatives could withstand the hype that Michael Moore's movies perpetuate. The notion that Moore has deceived, or even lied, is ridiculous. The various points that all three articles make, and they all made the same points, are just as deceiving as Moore’s own.

Granted, somehow Moore fudged the international murder numbers, still his point was not whether Germany had 381 (Moore’s number) or 164 (Germany’s actual number) but that neither compared to the total of the United States. The ironic part of this is that Moore exaggerated not only the US numbers, but the others as well…so why would a man trying to make the point that America has more gun violence increase the number of gun related deaths in foreign countries? Obviously these articles are not finding the same information that Moore found, and I’m sure that here in America, the land of endless information gathering, organizations from the FBI to local law enforcements, to medical records would all report varying numbers. So how can you blame Moore for using false facts, when in reality it would be impossible to pinpoint the total number of deaths? That is, unless you’re Australia. I would hope that anyone could count to 64, I mean, ummmm, 65. (There he goes ago, trying to prove himself wrong.)

Another point made more then once was how Heston was misquoted. I’m sorry, when those two kids walked into that school and shot their teachers and classmates the community (meaning anyone in the Denver area at the time, whether you are visiting or not) should respect not only the wishes of the community, but the lives of those young people. I don’t care if New York state mandated that the NRA hold its meeting, Heston still had a choice whether to show or not. All the NRA members had the choice to show or not. Therefore, stressing the point of Heston’s intentions is not misleading. He did not care about those kids in Columbine, he only cared about the money for his speech and his gun. And as far as editing is concerned: A – if you try to tell me that documentaries are not allowed to edit speeches, or stream together separate video tracks, then I’ll call YOU a LIAR. You’re going to tell me that a documentary animals does not cut from eating, to sleeping, or, my god, from one animal to another! My god, that brown bear looks nothing like that one! This director wants me to believe they are the same, how dare he! B – the fact is that Heston said all those things! Moore did not splice together words to make Heston say any of the following:

"Good Morning. Thank you all for coming, and thank you for supporting your organization. I also want to applaud your courage in coming here today." [Footage of protest outside] "I have a message from the Mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the Mayor of Denver. [picture of Webb, then back to Heston] He sent me this, and said 'don't come here. We don't want you here.' I said to the Mayor this is our country, as Americans we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land. [cut to crowd cheering, then back to Heston] Don't come here? We're already here."

I left the remarks in for emphasis. Heston knows full well that he was under the watchful eye of America. Heston, and the rest of the NRA, knew that it was poor judgment and bad moral test to hold a gun meeting the week after a school shooting. But Heston demands that the right of the gun holder must not be questioned, and that is what Moore pieces together. Moore points out that Heston felt he had the right to attend that meeting because of the NRA members that would be disappointed because their meeting was cancelled. It is unfortunate that such a great man as Heston would make a point about gun ownership in the wake of such a horrible incident, but he did. As a US citizen I understand the right to free speech, but just because you are free to do so, does not mean you should speak at any given time. In Heston’s case, both incidents were not proper timing for gun owner advocacy, and the manner in which Moore portrays Heston is not only an accurate summary of how Heston felt the week after the shooting, but still felt months and years later! You are not going to convince me, or anyone else, that Heston was wronged by Moore when the words speak for themselves…whether they were said seven days after the shooting, or seven years. Heston still said all those things.

As for the cartoon about the NRA and KKK, I myself find it interesting that one was declared an illegal terrorist organization at the same point that the other was formed. Yes, that’s right, I was able to follow that little tidbit of information that the KKK was “declared” an illegal terrorist organization. Actually, I think that was a major point of the cartoon; not that they were formed at the same time (which for some reason all three articles assumed the ignorant masses were led to believe), but that the KKK was declared illegal so all of its members formed a new group called the NRA. That certainly makes more since, despite the fact that it was fronted by Grant. But then again, how many former KKK members joined the NRA that first year….I wonder? Out of all three articles all that was pointed out was that the Grant dismantled the KKK. Nothing said about where they all went to. Did they just take of their robes and hang up there pointy little hats and say, “ahh, shucks! Guess I’m gonna have to get rid of my guns now, hehe..” of course that is what the right-wing view of Moore’s film would like you to believe. That the US government banned and dismantled the KKK back in 1871, that the NRA formed in 1871 had no former KKK members, and that African-Americans were able to carry guns and have not been terrorized by white supremacy groups ever since. Now who is lieing?

Moving on to the Flint shooting. Only a right-wing conservative would blame the family for raising such a horrible child, as all three articles lead you to believe. This country has a horrible disease, its called capitalism. That’s right, capitalism! Minorities in this country grow up in ghettos, why? Because their parents grew up in ghettos and their grandparents grew up in ghettos. The argument is, “they are given an education, but many just don’t use it to their advantage.” Haha, don’t make me laugh. If you think that a kid growing up in East St. Louis is receiving the same education as a child in Beverly Hills, I want some of whatever you are taking my friend. Kids, like the boy in Flint, are violent because they are on the bottom rung of social ladder which offers no solution for their problems, but perpetual punishes, alienates, and condemns them for becoming thugs. Of course the only way this system would stop is if upper middle class society decided to help the poor, but why would they ever do that? Why would we institute national health care and equal school budget funds for each child? That’s not the one-sided, inequality that the privileged are use to. Oh yea, the idea that we are all created equal is a dream that was lost over 200 years ago. We are not all equal, just as equal as our bank accounts can make us.

One more point that these articles ridicule was Moore’s attack on the US government and its aid given to Saddam and the Taliban. The only problem found with all these disturbing facts is the aid given to Afghanistan in the months leading up to the September 11 attacks. Forget the fact that Reagon and the first Bush administration fully armed Saddam, let alone other dictators in Africa and South America. All those actions, while accurate, do not matter because Moore was wrong about the aid sent to Afghanistan. I’m not even sure where to begin researching something like this. Obviously my resources are limited to the internet, and we all know how accurate that is. According to the USAID website, they would led us to believe that they only spent $11 billion dollars in Afghanistan during the time in 2000 – 2001 leading to the attacks. But now I have to ask the question a stressing false facts based on the part of our right-wing government…what country were all the terrorists from that destroyed the WTC? O that’s right…they were form Saudi Arabia, haha with all this fighting going on I would have thought they were from Iraq. Silly me.

This point of this article was to clarify the corrections previously made by those trying to discredit the works Michael Moore has accomplished. By forcing America to look itself in the mirror, many citizens have become frightened by our own reflection. They would rather destroy Moore’s reputation, thus labeling his works as null and void. Unfortunately, the problems that Moore raises, not just in Bowling, but Roger and Me, and The Big One, are not going away. Especially if your attempt to do so is to attack the messenger. Do you honestly think we don’t have gun, or violence, problem in America? Do you really believe that big business is our savior and that it’s a persons own fault if they are fired, or downsized, and left without a career at 40 with only a high school diploma? And I don’t feel sorry for the big wigs that are only doing their jobs when they fire 40,000 people because it would be better for business. Screw them, they will get theirs in the end.

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Do your fingers hurt?

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I notice how you criticize Michael Moore for being partisan since he stands up for his beliefs and disagrees with others. An interesting thing to say, as you basically did the same thing by posting your message. See, that kind of thing makes you a hypocrite, when you criticize someone for voicing their opinion while VOICING YOUR OWN OPINION IN THE PROCESS. And I'm sorry, but I refuse to take a post seriously when the author decides to resort to name calling all for the sake of tastless humor. Weren't you the one who asked if we were all countrymen? If you really believed that, then you wouldn't act like a third grader and call Moore ridiculous, childish names. Have you never heard of the old saying which says, in effect, "I may disagree with you, but I'll fight to the death your right to say it?" Take all of this into account before posting another message, fellow countryman.

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[deleted]

1. He went after GM because it was in his home town.
2. Wal-Mart was featured in Bowling for Columbine for selling ammo.
3. I think he has featured it in one of his books, but I may be thinking of something else.

Nice post by sauce1977 and swimzen, I'd just like to say.

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It was K-Mart not Wal-Mart

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My mistake, I'm a Brit and don't know much about American supermarkets.

Thanks for the correction.

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Okay first of all I suggest that you don't call him fatty mcmoore. Because when you start name calling your arguments lose all credibility. Now capitalism is a decent system but it is far from perfect. What Moore doesn't like is when a company like GM when it is making profits in the billions, lays off thousands and thousands of hard-working Americans, and gives their jobs overeseas to workers who will work for seventy cents an hour with fewer or no fringe benefits such as sick leave. Driving many people into proverty, which is only going to raise crime and cause more problems, and that money they saved from paying workers only goes to the guys at the top. Roger Smith gave himself a two million dollar raise at a time when he laid off workers that had to be evicted on Xmas eve because they couldn't pay the bills. Now you might be asking, well why couldn't they get another Job? Why couldn't they just move? Well it is not easy to find work in a town where thousands of people are just being laid off. Do you think Taco Bell will provide security, I don't think so and they also don't have what it takes to move. Because they don't have the financial needs or anything. So while all these poor people are suffering these hardships, Roger Smith the man responsible for all the lay-offs gives himself a two-million dollar raise? You are actually priseing this as this great capitalism? This doesn't piss you off? I am not a socialist but there are two many things wrong with Capitalism. It allows too easily for the rich to finicially rape the poor.
Now it pisses you off, that Michael Moore is making a documentary on how the Bush administration is profitting of 9/11 and that pisses you off? That he is making the documentary? I find it more appalling that Bush is profitting of our fears in this time of crisis. That is what I find appalling. That the man that should be leading us and caring for us is robbing us blind. That is sick and disgusting to me and I also think it's an unamerican idea that we are supposed to stand by the president in this time. Well we live in America where everybody has the right to express their opinion and it doesn't matter if it is a time of war or a time of peace. We should never have to sacrifice our rights no matter what.

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i think this last point is fast-typed, but makes a lot of good points.
it's sad to think that people are against moore and for capatalism, but the people that fall in this category are usually the one's best-humped by the very administrations and systems they support.
yeah, idiot's loved reagan too. they also voted a german born actor into the california governer's seat under a scandalously funded re-call and falsely rewarded a unbelievably rich man who starred in a film named colateral damage and can't even say the word colateral.
as another person posted, moore is guilty of using statistics that he's discovered that happened to be skewed. in some cases, never noted by detractors, his mistakes often make his points more valid.
he can't rightly make a cannes AND oscar award winning film about gun violence AND be an expert in statistics mentioned as well. he used the resources he had and tried to make a decent film. he's being bias in his films because what he attacks and stands against, well it's just f**king wrong. why try to make points for it, there's nothing good about the subjects he asks for changes in. let his detractors make their own films. i think the one's he's making are quite good. otherwise i wouldn't be here.
i'm shocked so many people are against him. usually, in my experience, the people who are have their hearts in the right place, but their stuck with their "label". conservative or liberal. pick a side a find a reason to hate moore. it's retarded.
i think you'd be surprised to find how conservative moore is on certain subjects (does anyone ever remember him being a former gun nut in the beginning of his "bowling for columbine"?) and how his experiences in life have made him feel how he does.
he wants to reduce gun violence, stop corporate crime from running f**ing rampant (which it IS), and, perhaps diminish the re-election attempts of a war mongering, corporate scandal profiting, f**king politics ignorant, bumbling (shall i go on) administration and end a useless war that was started for god knows what after one of the worst attacks, no not one of, THE WORST attack on u.s. soil maybe indirectly caused by said administration's negelect
jesus christ, is this so wrong? i feel like i'm taking f**king crazy pills when i read s**t on these boards or from people that stamp themselves with this cookie-cutter conservative/liberal label and just start shouting from either side. pick a team and play!
what f**king rubbish . . .
YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE ONE OR THE OTHER. it is possible to use your own judgement and think for yourselves. it's not hard to make the right decision if you seperate it from the label attatched to it. as chris rock states "i'm conservative AND liberal. on crime, i'm conservative. on prostitution, i'm liberal."
this is a very valid point and one people need to pay closer attention to. as moore has stated, we all just want the same things; to be safe and happy. corporate scandal, gun violence and a rocky administration and bogus, expensive war are NOT ways to help us, as a country, be safe or happy.

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Just reading through the thread a few things caught my eye.

First of all, and to be quite honest, the most important to me was the allegation that the family of the young kid who killed his fellow student was not an important factor in the shooting. As far as I am concerned, it could be the single most important factor, I would not be nearly surprised if there existed domestic abuse/violence in that household. From what I've seen and heard, most of the behavior of the people that seems to be extremely out of the norm comes from TRAUMA. Trauma caused by violence, by family problems, by rape and mollestation (which isn't always family-related), and by so many other family problems. Where do most kids spend most of their time? In their home with their family. How can someone not think that family was not a parto of the issue? As far as I'm concerned, I don't think enough investigation was done on the Columbine shooters and their family issues.

Second, regardless of the public school attended by a student, there is no excuse for not utilizing the FREEEEEEEEEEEEE education and teaching that EVERY KID has available to him. There are tons and tons of guidelines that need to be followed by public teachers and administration. If any class isn't being properly teached, it is up to the students, fellow teachers, administration, and students' parents to file a complaint and fix the problem. A student who doesn't utilize this free education is the one to blame for the problems that arise from their lack of knowledge/learning.

How can anyone ever say that an entrepreneur doesn't deserve some of the profits? Is it not the entrepreneur, the founder(s), and the business's administration that make all the decisions that require true education and intelligence? Isn't it those same people who assume risk and responsibility for any large mistakes that are made? It overwhelms me that it would be such a big problem that his salary be raised by $2 million when that $2 million is only a drop in an ocean of money in this country.
Is it not GM who gave the people of Flint jobs in the first place? Like all factories, the one in Flint eventually died. Yes the jobs were moved out of the nation in order to maximize profits...but those profits get filtered back into the economy eventually anyways. Those jobs wouldn't have been moved if the minimum wage hadn't been so high in the first place...receiving a small wage is better than receiving none at all, this is unfortunately what happens when the labor forces decide to get picky. Those workers were not in high demand, and should have worked with GM to keep those jobs. Again, if those workers had done well in high school and maybe even had gone to college, they would have been the ones receiving the profits but because many of them (I'm not saying all of them, some people fall under unfortunate circumstances) decided to be short sighted in their youth, they fell into factory with all the other unskilled laborers.

The same partially goes for those in power in the government. If Rummy and Bush, who are both well educated, have been doing well in office, or even if they've only been doing mediocre in office, I feel that they have the right to make money on the side...after all, they HAVE prevented just about every major catastrophe that could happen (I mean MAJOR catastrophes...widespread famine, drought, breakdown of the US infrastructure, nuclear meltdown, and even invasion). I will admit that there are mistakes made in some of the high positions of power, but for every mistake made, there seems to be many good decisions made. NO ONE IS PERFECT.

I am surprised that the U.S. hasn't split up into separate parts yet...although it almost did during the Civil War. I sometimes wonder if we should just split the nation up into Coservative, Liberal, Authoritarian, and Libertarian (separate) pieces. I suppose it'd be damned near impossible to split the people up though I suppose.

Feel free to respond and criticize the stuff that I say. Make sure that if any of the facts that I put in are wrong, that you tell me cuz I wouldn't like to be the one going on believing in lies. Thanks.

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Does anyone know what Michael Moore has done with the money he's made from his films? Does it go to the communities profiled, or line his wallet? Many communities in many areas have suffered from the same type of dilemma. It is often a result of complacency. I grew up in and around Flint, and kids I went to school with all through the late 70's and 80's talked about going to work at GM when they graduated, they didn't have to worry a great deal about grades even, because dad or Uncle Joe or somebody worked there, so they were already "in the door", so to speak. I joined the Air Force, and watched towns that were built on the economy of the military installation "dry up" when the bases closed in the early 90's due to the Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) Committees recommendations to the Federal Government. Many rest on their laurels, thinking that they have it made and they can take it easy, this place will never go away. Computers have cost many their jobs, in part because many would not embrace them when they first came in but would rather "die fighting", and many are now dead, or at least jobless with no transferrable skills. A simple cost analysis closed the Clark lift truck factory in Battle Creek, because the employees did the bare minimum that they could per hour thinking that they were insuring job security (at least that's the rumor). How many times is this true? A former coworker of mine went to a different employer, and his new trainer told him he needed to slow down, or the company would start expecting that kind of work from all of the employees. He had already completed four days of work when his trainer came to check on him four hours later! And all of his product passed quality assurance checks.
The bottom line is, the bottom line. Profit. People profiting from other's losses. Michael Moore profiting from losses of jobs, money, families, and lives. Roger Smith profiting from a willing workforce in an impoverished area. Roger Moore profiting from movies you've seen and bought and rented.
Sadly, the profit is lost upon death, and the one thing that could profit you the most - a personal relationship with Jesus Christ - could be lost as well. You can't take the rest with you, and the one who dies with the most toys doesn't win, he's just dead - unless he knew Jesus. Find a church in your area that preaches the gospel, and make it a point to go - even if it's just once. The profit could be eternal.

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Let's not get carried away now. Religion has no place in a rational debate...much like facts have no place in organized religion.

I think a lot of people have failed to see the big picture here. Does Mr. Smith have the right to do as he chooses with his company? Of course...even if it is so morally bankrupt that words fail me to describe it. Does Michael Moore have a right to make a documentary about the effects of such a decision? Absolutely. I think so many people get lost in their predisposition to Moore that it makes it hard to objectively watch his movies. Does it matter that every single one of his facts is "accurate"? Not really because you can find 20 different statistics on any one topic. It's the message that counts. The message of BOC was clear...America is a violent culture and someone needs to examine why. There it is...it's not about gun control or how much of a b*tch Charlton Heston is. I also fail to see how anyone can get their panties in a twist so bad because he's making "Farenheit 9/11". If he's got the facts to back it up, then someone deserves to be left twisting in the wind. Although I can't say I'm suprised by the subject matter. As the Dead Kennedys once said, "the economy is looking bad, let's start another war". While I think Moore is a bit too self serving and enflamatory, I commend him for bringing a lot of Amerca's problems to light for those of us who are willing to listen and not follow blindly whatever the given administration spoon feeds us. If you hate this movie just because it's Michael Moore, get your head out of your @ss. If you hate Michael Moore period, take a look at the world around you and tell me he's 100% wrong.

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<< Let's not get carried away now. Religion has no place in a rational debate...much like facts have no place in organized religion.
<<

Extremely close-minded view there.


>> I think a lot of people have failed to see the big picture here. Does Mr. Smith have the right to do as he chooses with his company? Of course...even if it is so morally bankrupt that words fail me to describe it. <<

Who's to say that your moral viewpoint is any better than anyone elses? Some people believe its wrong to have sexual relations with the same sex, some people think its wrong to terminate pregnancies. And believe it or not, some people have the nerve to believe its wrong for a corporation to make a profit. The uncanny thing to me is that you people act like these people can't get jobs because GM left town. Like life just stops. What about all the wonderful welfare programs the liberals created for them? You can't go from a 6 dollar an hour job at GM to a 6 dollar an hour job at White Castle? Get real, get off the couch, and ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY! (aka Liberal Kryptonite)


>> Does Michael Moore have a right to make a documentary about the effects of such a decision? Absolutely. I think so many people get lost in their predisposition to Moore that it makes it hard to objectively watch his movies. Does it matter that every single one of his facts is "accurate"? Not really <<

What a telling statement. Its called hypocrisy, my friend. How can he stand on a platform spouting about false presidents and fictional times when he's making a fictional movie with fictional statistics and blatant, unapologetic misrepresentations? He CAN, but he deserves zero credit and respect.


>> ...it's not about gun control or how much of a b*tch Charlton Heston is. <<

Charleton Heston is a great american fighting for his rights. The biggest shame of all that is Michael Moore is how he makes an American hero like Heston out to be a bad guy. What the hell has Heston ever done? He has a right to bear arms and he's going to fight for that right. He should be heralded as a freedom fighter. You don't hate GUNS you hate CRIME. Fight the criminals, not the law abiding arms carrying americans. Trying to get rid of guns is as insane as suggesting that we should be wiretapped or illegally searched because it would definitely lead to less crime. You can't have it both ways, liberals. (Pro-choice AND anti-war/death/violence. That's a funny one.)


<< I also fail to see how anyone can get their panties in a twist so bad because he's making "Farenheit 9/11". If he's got the facts to back it up, then someone deserves to be left twisting in the wind. Although I can't say I'm suprised by the subject matter. >>>

Are you going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that Farenheit 9/11 is anything less than a slur campaign against the administration Moore hates? His ONLY motivation is Bush slander. That's why people get their panties in a twist. He has the nerve to profit greatly off of a tragedy and try to push blame on the administration that bravely and successfully is fighting the most fierce war on American soil in over a hundred years. (How many terrorist attacks have we had since 9/11?)


>> As the Dead Kennedys once said, "the economy is looking bad, let's start another war". <<

There's a brilliant resource for factual basis. A punk group's lyrics. Do you really believe what you saw in Canadian Bacon happens in the real world? Sad. I don't see this war doing anything for the economy. AND FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.. WE DIDN'T START THIS WAR.. My god.. seriously.. "*we** started this war? It makes me sick with anger to hear that. They brought the war to us.

>> While I think Moore is a bit too self serving and enflamatory I commend him for bringing a lot of Amerca's problems to light for those of us who are willing to listen and not follow blindly whatever the given administration spoon feeds us. <<

I don't know how you'd ever get that impression. That's like a right-wing conservative saying to you "While I agree that President Bush is a war-hungry, idiotic savage, I greatly admire his conviction and will continue to support him despite what liberal Hollywood says."

>> If you hate this movie just because it's Michael Moore, get your head out of your @ss. If you hate Michael Moore period, take a look at the world around you and tell me he's 100% wrong. <<

Hating a film based on the director being Michael Moore is 100% acceptable. He has proven to be a hateful, fact-dismissive, slanderous, hypocrite. It isn't that simple, however. Liking the movie simply because it attacks Bush (and face it, that is 99.9% the draw for Liberal Hollywood types like DiCaprio and the Baldwins who were spoonfed this crap from birth) is no better than disliking it because its from Liberal mouthpiece Michael Moore.


By the way... Michael Moore is disgustingly rich. What has he done for Flint, Michigan? Surely he could have found a website hosting company in Michigan. But he chose to go to Canada for that. We all know he's a hypocrite though, so why beat a dead horse. Battling Moore's hypocrisy would be like a conservative defending Bush's speech giving ability. (A real prerequiste for being an American leader apparently.)

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<<By the way... Michael Moore is disgustingly rich. What has he done for Flint, Michigan?>>

Well, a few things.

This is old news from ’98:

http://www.indiewire.com/biz/biz_980226_MiraMooreProfit.html

That said, I think people often object to journalism of this type because it seems unrelentingly cynical. It's designed to shock you so that the truth makes an impression. Unfortunately, shocks like these frighten and hurt a majority of the public in a way that they can no longer think clearly about the issues. They want the pain to stop, so they back the president who can paint the rosiest picture of the future for them. This is only human.

A liberal education trains students to keep a certain emotional distance from these issues so that they can be actually be discussed. But most people do not have this training. The college-educated media has assumed that the less well-educated (and much more traumatized) population can handle the heady stuff they dish out. If Moore has made a mistake it is in believing that everyone should have the background which makes them emotionally flexible (or insensitive) enough to handle his brand of truth.

The way news is revealed has become a problematic issue. It affects peoples' self-esteem in a way which has gotten completely out of hand. The'average' U.S. citizen is not treated today in any area of life as being as important as s/he was thirty years ago and I think this is reinforced every time one turns on the TV. If journalists could learn how to appeal to the national imagination, then they might achieve the social progress for which they dream.

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Lost in the arguments is what this movie is (and all good movies are) really about. It is about telling a compelling story, in this case, the story of Flint MI, after the GM plant closed down.

I didn't want to address anyone point by point, but I will for the greater good:

>>What about all the wonderful welfare programs the liberals created for them? You can't go from a 6 dollar an hour job at GM to a 6 dollar an hour job at White Castle? Get real, get off the couch, and ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY! (aka Liberal Kryptonite)<<

Wow, you actually believe this stuff, don't you? Don't you take Fox News through an IV, or just pop Rush pills? Marty Feldstein himself would tell you it doesn't work that way. The only reason White Castle stays open is because money is coming into the town through the plant. It is the simplest of economics. And do you really believe that the entire town is lazy? The woman who skins animals in her back yard to make ends meet. Lazy? The people who ride buses for hours to go to a minimum wage job. Lazy? If anyone has contempt for the average American, it is you, sir.

>>Charleton Heston is a great american fighting for his rights.<<
Perhaps. But I find it interesting that someone who fights for the second amendment is a patriot and a hero, but people who fight for the other 9 in the bill of rights (ie ACLU) are called un-American and unpatriotic. You haven't said that on this list, and maybe you disagree, but that is a common view among conservatives.

>>You can't have it both ways, liberals. (Pro-choice AND anti-war/death/violence. That's a funny one.)<<
First off, are you pro-death/violence? Just wondering, because that's a pretty rare point of view, even for neocons. And while I could get into the abortion debate, I shall not, not because you're right, but because I can never convince you. I would ask, though, what is more violent, performing an abortion, or blowing up an abortion clinic?

>>I don't see this war doing anything for the economy.<<
I completely agree. Assuming we're talking about the Iraq war, it clearly has nothing to do with the economy, because the war was planned before the economy tanked. This war is about neoconservatism, a philosophy that says "Regan won the cold war, and we can better the world the same way, by making new democracies through force. The idea ignores the following logic:
If there are two giants, it is perfectly reasonable to stand behind one of them for protection from the other, and it seems reasonable for your giant to pick up other people hiding in the bushes. After all, they might try to hurt you, or your giant. But when one giant dies, and there is only one left, everyone is going to stand as far away from the giant as they can. Now, that no one is really behind the giant, everyone is in front of him, and it stands to reason that what he could do to one person, he could do to anyone.

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I get a kick out of how you refer to Heston as a racist and associate him with the KKK. Buttttttt....

Fact: Charlton Heston was a civil rights activist. He even worked with Martin Luther King Jr.

Fact: Heston didn't say he needed a gun because of blacks. When pounded by questions on America's history of violence, Heston said part of it may be from the mixed ethnicity. And that of course is true. The mixed ethnicities, especially when they first came to America, caused alot of violence and hatred. Irish, Italian, Chinese, etc.....whatever wave of immigration it was, its always led to unease and hate and so on. Why doesn't this happen in other countries? oh thats right, because America is one of the few to have always accepted immigrants since its foundation is based on that.

Fact: In the previews for "Bowling...", Moore points out that the NRA held a meeting in Denver after the shootings, then shows a clip of Heston holding a rifle and proclaiming "from my cold dead hands." Even when i saw that clip, i said "Gee, Heston is garbage." But another fact: That clip wasn't from the Denver meeting. It was from another that was held one year later. And that quote of his? Was he telling politians to piss off with control laws? Not quite. He was referring to the actual rifle in his hands, which was a handmade musket given to him at the meeting as a gift.

Fact: The NRA did hold a meeting in Denver only a little more after a week after the Columbine shootings. But this meeting was an annual meeting planned years in advanced. The NRA cancelled all the events except for the voting meeting, which by state law, had to be held.

Fact: Quoted from this news article. http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0422nra3.shtml , Heston wrote "But the tragedy in Littleton last Tuesday calls upon us to take steps, along with dozens of other planned public events, to modify our schedule to show our profound sympathy and respect for the families and communities in the Denver area in their time of great loss."

Fact: Moore attacks Heston on attending a rally in Flint after Kayla Rolland was shot. What is conveniently exlucded from the film is the fact that the rally was a "Get Out and Vote" rally, not an NRA rally. Bush and GOre were at these rallies as well. YOu know who else was at these rallies? Thats right, Michael Moore, rallying for people to get out and vote for Nader.

Not only does Moore not tell certain truths in his film, but he edits alot of Heston's (and of course others) speeches and clips to make them appear worse than they really are and so they fit in what his agenda is, not the truth.

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