Cecil, gay?


he seemed like such a homo, for those who have read the book, is this mentioned?

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Cecil is gay and so is Mr. Beebe.

Now were they attracted to Lucy? Yes. But each in their own way but it wasn't sexual.

I think Mr. Beebe reacted badly to Cecil's announcement because he knew that Cecil would never be able to fully love Lucy in the way she deserved to be loved.

ETA: The book and film is about class differences. The only drawback to this wonderful version is that they tended to gloss over the class warfare. The film then became just about a girl growing up and finding true love. When it was really about a girl growing up and finding true love with a man below her class.

Emerson - Working Class
Lucy - Middle Class

It seems Cecil stands above them all and it was quite a score on Lucy's part to get engaged to him.

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I don't think that there is any indication that Mr Beebe was gay. There is no indication in the book that the character was gay, and Simon Callow didn't play him as if he was. Unless there was something of his own mannerisms that crept in.








"great minds think differently"

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The question, I think,is sort of nonsensical, as all the characters are obviously fictional, all the while written by an author who was gay. I don't think any of the male characters in the story are supposed to be definitely gay, but I think they are all part of a reflection on what 'being gay'/liberated in a nonaccepting society means, or could mean.

Cecil is certainly one example of what having/feeling the need to inhibit your natural inclination could mean for your personality. But I'm fairly certain it was not the (gay) authors intent to make Cecil a definitely gay character.
I think he is meant to say something about inhibitions, and the sadness of taking them to heart to the point where you can no longer express or develop really warm emotions, because their natural life is the antithesis to inhibition.

As for the movie, I thought the most gay scene was the extreme and seemingly forced gayness ('carefree happyness') of the three men having a dip together, and suddenly acting all goofy and giddy around each other, for no other apparent reason than being naked and playing a bit with the water around two other naked men. That way of fast and sudden relinquishing of all sensible adult inhibition around men that you supposedly don't know all that well, just because you are naked with them in the water, strikes me as a pretty gay scene, in every sense of the word. If they had been old drinking buddies/ had had a less steep uninhibition, or had shown any hint of respectful caution around the personal limits of their unfamiliar company, the scene might just have suggested ordinary rowdy playfullness. As it were, it seemed sexually driven, and lacking the steady and hesitant buildup of a naturally playful relation, less the 'charged' atmosphere.

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This all sounds like a sensible analysis, on one level.

However, we know that Freddy doesn't have too many inhibitions.

And we know that Mr Beebe can behave quite inappropriately.

And we know that George is a loose cannon.

Put the three of them together and something ridiculous and uninhibited is bound to happen.

I don't think there was anything extreme or forced in their carefree happiness. I don't think that the scene was even remotely "gay" until Cecil came along. The three of them were all just acting like the sort of loonies that they were... just waiting to break out at the first opportunity.






"great minds think differently"

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And at a certain level, I do agree with you. ;)

I also did not think the scene was MEANT to be gay, but I think it was thought up by someone forcing the issue of 'liberated' behavior beyond its plausible limits, without sexual drive to push it there, even though your characterisations are true enough. I also do agree that either one of the characters would likely be prone to such sillyness where they felt safe and trusted.

I just very much doubt the plausibility of the scenes clothes-throwing abandon among supposedly straight men who hardly know each other, and are having their first bit of icebreaking fun together. Men would be likely to take offense and end up in a severe conflict/bloody fight about respect if total strangers suddenly began trashing their dry clothes in the water and dirt, no matter how jolly the mood to begin with, while no personal injury was involved.

I'm not saying these characters should do so too, seeing as how they are all silly enough for it, and absolutely unaggressive (to the point of being effeminate)- but my point is that all of them are also old enough to have learned respectful caution among unfamiliar men, as a matter of simple social survival. And as wackily as they each can act separately, they also demonstrate selfconstraints and caution where the company suggests so, even if they all do tend to overstep a little among people they trust.
But a first waterfight between three unfamiliar men should very much suggest caution, for reasons explained - unless they were all just too excited about 'some other prospect' to consider respect!

Again, between men who knew each others limits well in advance, the scene would not be so unlikely/so suggestive of gay priorities. Among unfamiliar women, the likelihood of a bloody nose might at least also have been pretty slim.

Most likely Forster will simply have enjoyed/fantasized such a scene so much, that it was just (wishfully) thought more plausible/less gay among the 'liberated' than it really would be likely to be. He may also have just wanted to counterpoint Cecils sad inhibition with their gay (happy/carefree) lack of same. With poetic license to do so, of course. Still, the clothes -trashing was just too unlikely a degree of unconcerned rowdyness between (not sexually excited) strangers, imo.

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It WAS Freddy and George doing the clothes trashing.

Um! Well, sex-drive presumably had something to do with it, as men tend to get rather competitive around other males. But the suggestion that "some other prospect" was necessary in order to get them going like that is something that I disagree with.

Is having fun and hilarity necessarily about sex? Is inhibition always about sex? I don't think so!
While they didn't know each other very well, Mr Beebe knew Freddy, and also knew George, but probably not as well. Freddy was by nature unrestrained and George came from a family relationship that had no respect for convention. They hit it off, immediately. They didn't need sex to get razzed up. All they needed was to take their clothes off and have a water fight.

We have to look at the action in context. The context that the writer has created is one of three uninhibited people. Their characters, as mapped out before this action, are consistent with the event.

Mr Beebe may indeed be a little distressed by the trashing of his clothes, but he doesn't have a lot of time to show it, before the ladies come down. And he is not the sort of clergyman who would punch the nose of a lad much younger than himself!



"great minds think differently"

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"Is having fun and hilarity necessarily about sex? Is inhibition always about sex?"

Certainly not. But as you also pointed out, "we have to look at the action in context". A very valid point. I'd just proceed to argue that the salient context in the scene is that of three fairly unfamiliar men taking their clothes off together and playfighting with water. To engage in a wilder fight, trashing the clothes, seems risky at best, and also rather aggressive, as if inviting increased physicality.
Why would anyone with a sober mind take that risk, while wishing to make (platonic) friends? And why wouldn't anyone at the very least object audibly, or take offense, at the sudden transgression of personal property?

I suppose most of us have been there, suddenly playfighting 'romantic' (sexual) interests with pillows/water/dry leaves or just wrestling, (before kissing ensues). Playfighting with other men is just a rather more risky business, not because of the male sexdrive (I think you are mixing up two salient and important terms a little there) but because of male aggressiveness, which means that a male who doesn't sanction a certain level of playfighting is more than likely to take offense from supposedly playful escalation. If you've tried practising martial arts you should also have experienced the need to stay respectful if you don't want to make enemies, even without pain or the trashing of clothes being involved.

Now, if anything, the male sexdrive will actively COUNTER male aggressiveness where the sexdrive comes in play, from the erotic focus and the wish to stay friendly, when we're basically talking foreplay.

Besides, none of these men have shown any notable aggression before or since, so I'd assume something special about the situation is fueling all the fires. Such as the special conditions of being alone with men who are also naked.
Again, I don't think it will have been a conscious decision by Forster to make the scenes giddy escalation so gay, in the homoerotic sense of the word. I think he just did so, in trying to counterpoint the ('good') liberated way of life with Cecils (badly) inhibited one, and that he failed to make that particular scene plausibly non-homoerotic because he was, in fact, gay, and understandably intuited and saw its 'natural' social flow differently than a less gay man would be inclined to do.

Advanced rational arguments aside, I just couldn't help but thinking that this scene was decidedly homoerotic, and mostly from 'the vibe'/the onesided giddy/playfull channeling of otherwise aggressive instincts and responses of social caution or conflict, as examined above.

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truly, stormrose, I have to laugh at this:

"Why would anyone with a sober mind take that risk, while wishing to make (platonic) friends?"


Um! Which one of these three men are you referring to as having" a sober mind"?

That's the whole point! Not Freddy, not Mr Beebe, and certainly not George could be described as having "a sober mind".

Forster makes the scene believable because the three men are all uninhibited by nature, and all slightly nutty.

I think you are becoming altogether too Freudian about this.

I don't think that the vibe between the three nude males was homoerotic. I think it was simply uninhibited.






"great minds think differently"

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yeah, well. Perhaps you're right about me getting too analytical.

I was just trying to account rationally for why the flow of that (fictitious) scene seemed off, in a (realistic) non-homoerotic frame of mind.
Admittedly, I don't consider these three characters as uncivilized/crazy as you apparently do, either. Seems to me that they all show civil constraint at other points of the story.
In my estimate, it is just that Forster thought that naked men naturally makes human beings feel all giddy and bubbly, liberated and wild inside, as if getting tickled while drunk, and that women ever since have been siding with him, in failing to grasp the somewhat irrational concept of male aggression->code of respectful restraint in aggressive escalation.

Cheers

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I think "uncivilised" and "crazy" are the wrong terms. I don't think that any of those three men are those things at all. They are all very far from "crazy".

But, as I wrote here before, this story is about challenging the way things "ought to be". People "ought" to be civilised, but these three men break out at the first opportunity.

The rule-breaking starts right at the beginning. People "ought" to have a "Room with a View" on their first visit to Florence, but they haven't. George's father acts in a totally improper manner by addressing two unmarried females and offering to swap rooms. Neither George's father, nor Mr Beebe are constrained to act as they "ought". Neither is Cousin Charlotte.

At some point in the movie, all constraint has to be thrown away. George is madly, hopelessly in love. Freddy is younger, and rather wild. He asks a total stranger to go swimming by way of introduction and then acts like a schoolboy on half-holiday. It is not at all surprising that Wild Freddy and Randy George go totally mad. And given the irrepressible nature of Mr Beebe, he gets caught up in it.

That scene represents the total abandonment of all the rigid corsetted top-hatted niceties of Edwardian restraint. After a break-down of social order that has a son caught publicly naked by his mother, a young man doing star jumps in front of the woman he loves, and a clergyman trying to hide his nakedness with foliage like Adam in the Garden of Eden, anything can follow.

This is a pivotal point in the movie.



"great minds think differently"

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Heh, I don't know about 'pivotal'. 'Pivotal' would seem to indicate that later events depend upon it, which I do not see to be the case.

It seems rather dubious to me that their progressive flirtation/eventual marriage with each other would hinge remotely on this silly little intermesso at all, as it doesn't seem to change their relation or way of looking at each other. As you will recall, there are plenty of other scenes with such pivotal qualities, in this story. This just doesn't stand out in that regard, as I see it.

On the other hand, as I've also mentioned before, I also think that the scene is (symbolically) important for what Forster is trying to (meta)communicate with the overall story, in sharply contrasting Cecils suffocatingly tedious level of inhibition with a much more fun (/gay, but mainly as in liberated, unconcerned, happy) approach to life. So, I see the builtup contrast culminating at the end of this scene as a kind of intentional statement by Forster. [edit: and yes, that would certainly be a polemic cultural statement.]

But in terms of character development I don't see that it, in itself, is headed much of anywhere. That is to say, other than somewhat curiously establishing the three men as getting unusually excited in naked male company. To the point of apparently skipping the usual social male agression-inhibition codex to happily trashing each other clothes, in favor of the sense of excitement. As mentioned, I think Forster just overlooked a kind of inhibitive agression taboo that he probably wouldn't have paid much attention to, himself, in such a playful scene with nude men.

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I love the Garden of Eden reference! So right! That's exactly what he was doing...LOLOL I thought the pond meant a lot, and wrecking the clothing is burning their bridges to permanently cut down the old Victorian order...the young guys and the church chose to irrevocably destroy the old social order.

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Of course he was gay. Not necessarily literally gay in the story, just codedly gay. This is Forster, after all. Codifying gay themes were his main reason for writing, as for many other writers, and the creators of this film were certainly tapping into that.

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Besides the name-calling you appear to be trying to classify him as homosexual because he is unlikeable, and that's where your more political and judgemental opinion takes you. You offer no facts or observations to support your ignorant suggestion. "Such a homo?" Are you 12 yrs old? (Apologies to 12 yu olds.)

Cecil appears to be UNsexual, not homosexual. He is not getting close to the young attractive men in the house, he still wants to maintain his somewhat controlling relationship with Lucy. If he were gay, I'd expect him to enjoy her brother more, if not physically, at least visually. He certainly would not be enjoying a relationship of sorts with Lucy, trying to do his duty and begin a physical relationship, as difficult as this is for him. (BTW, gay guys are usually great kissers, not uptight, frigid ones. They just prefer kissing other men.) Cecil loves himself so much, there is not much room for anyone else. They've not given us any evidence he wants what he is too uptight to do with Lucy with men instead.

If he were gay, wouldn't he have been frolicking in the pond with the other guys--not that the younger brother and George were gay (they were just doing what they had done as kids on hot summer days. But the older minister chasing them seemed to have different overtones--tho I'm a woman and canno speak from experience)? The minister seemed to be closeted, and he jumped right in and chased the boys about, enhoying it more than he should have? The author would have taken that opportunity to identify Cecil as well, but he did not--he had him appear with the ladies, in his role as Lucy's fiance and her mom's soon-to-be-son-in-law...protective, shocked...NOT titillated or checking anyone out, NO wistful looks, etc.

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OP, I can say in this age a guy saying someone sounds like such a homo is a red flag that you are dealing with homosexual feelings. If you were hetero, why would you care?

Do I think Cecil is gay? I think it is a STRONG possibility. After all this is EM Forster, and in his novel "Maurice" he made out that the high brow upperclass Clive was devoid of sexuality, because he was actually gay. In fact Cecil had many characteristics of Clive.

As for the fight about what some homophobes are writing... I'm gay and calling me homosexual is to me inoffensive. Calling me a homo is a jab, but I'm far too sophisticated to let that junior high name calling get to me. Sad to see these homophobes trying to destroy what actually could have been an intelligent conversation, but I've never known a homophobe to be all that intelligent.

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Homo?

Freddy invited George for a bathe at first meeting, grabbed onto him twice in the pond, and then invited George to chase him naked around the pond. Later Freddy admitted being quite smitten with George. Freddy certainly was an interesting, fun loving character. Remember, at that time a gay man in the UK could be thrown in prison, and several decades before that men in the UK were still being hung by the neck until dead if accused and found guilty of gay sex.

As far as Mr. Vyse, or even Freddy, no, I never saw the story portraying them as gay.

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Daniel’s character in this film and in his last film Phantom Thread have effeminate mannerisms but are attracted to women.

I thought the preacher guy might be gay though.

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