MY FAVORITE MOVIE - Flesh+Blood (1985) Discussion

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 19 years ago

> [...] Sean connery as King Arthur is sexy, but he can not hold a candle to
> Martin.

IMO "First Knight" was totally patehitc. Its like one of those old MGM-movies, that are so unrealstic it makes you puke just thinking about them.

> It broke my heart at the end when Agnes chose to go with Stephen. Clearly she
> made the decision with her mind (what would the nuns think) but her heart was
> SCREAMING go to Martin.

I don't think so. She made a rational, grown uo choice. She had to get to that choice first. And when Martin choked her she finally understood that she only was a possesion, a new toy, to him, that he would eventually grow tired of and that he only took her, to hurt Stephens father.

> That is the age old dilema do you choose the safe life or go with the hot
> sexy guy who will worship you and *beep* you like crazy all night.

It's called the "Han Solo" phase. ;-> Every girl goes through that at that age. Agnes just went through it a lot faster then most girls do. And some never get through it.

> Does Stephen even know how?

Well, if not, she certainly is gone train him how she likes it. :-> Or they start from scratch. After all she never went through the whole exploring thing and was thrust (no pun intented! ;-) right in the middle of things.
--
"I used to be Tommy Verceti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] djgjd 19 years ago

I simply said that Sean Connery was sexy as King Arthur. The movie was pathetic, and Richard Gere was a "BIG HONKIN' JOKE" as Lancelot. However, knowing how you feel about Agnes' "mature" decision to be with Stephen, you should appreciate Guinevere's "my head chooses you" speech. Also, I guess I just never got past my "Han Solo" phase because I married the "Marlboro Man". Even broke up with a law student I had been dating for 18 months to do it.

reply

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 19 years ago

> [...] However, knowing how you feel about Agnes' "mature" decision to be with
> Stephen, you should appreciate Guinevere's "my head chooses you" speech.

Sorry, don't remeber. I only saw the movie once with was like four years ago or so. I', wating for this month when the re-releasse it as a value-title on DVD in germany. Then I'll buy it.

> Also, I guess I just never got past my "Han Solo" phase because I married
> the "Marlboro Man".

Maybe you saw that he had the potential to change and maybe even did. WDIK?

> Even broke up with a law student I had been dating for 18 months to do it.

Just someone trie to become a lawyer dossn`t automaticly make him a better person. There have been "Han Solos" that reavluated there whole life up to the point where the meet there Leias and totaly turned it around because of it!

Men do - be it ever so rarly - grow up... sometimes. ;->

I did.
--
"I used to be Tommy Verceti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] 19 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

>>> (...) heart was SCREAMING go to Martin.
>> (...) tired of and that he only took her, to hurt Stephens father.
> I've only seen this movie once, so correct me if I'm wrong. But wasn't it
> implyed that she actually never made the choice, but instead Martin did it
> for her.

You could imply that, yes.

> When she doesn't come to his rescue (when he is in the well) he realises that
> she will never choose one or the other, she loves him - but only when
> she "feels like it".

Exactly. She has realized that she`s a toy to him. And that means he lost controll. He doesn`t like that and so if he can`t have her - noone is allowed to.

> She goes with Steven, but she is clearly still confused when she sees Martin
> in the fire. Besides - if she had taken her final descision, wouldn't she
> have told the knights about Martin escaping the castle?

No. Cause she likes to play. Martin surving means that there is a possibility the game might atcually continue at some later date.

> But that would mean that Martin would have been killed, and she couldn't do
> that. Like she couldn't kill Steven earlier.

She could - but only if it would`ve become absolutly necessary. She just didn`t want to kill any of them.

> The way the movie ended I think it was implyed that the drama will go on.

What I said.
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

>> No. Cause she likes to play. Martin surving means that there is a
>> possibility the game might atcually continue at some later date.
> Yes - but that makes him HER toy. He even tries to change for her (improving
> his manners while eating, wearing white clothes instead of red), and HE is
> the one realising that she will never choose between the two.

The situation/power structure changes during the movie, yes. I think it`s actually a clever comment by Verhoeeven on the power that women posses if they just put there brains behind there actions, especially if it comes to men.

> I think it's fairly obvious in the necklace-situation at the end. She tells
> the other woman that she can't choose, and she replies something like "take
> them both, you silly bitch".

Her inabillity to choose is her downfall. She only thinks that she is in controll, but in reality she issn`t.

> I don't remember one single situation implying that she finally chooses
> Steven for good.

She does - when she realizes that Martin has revealed her ploy and tries to kill her. She then runs to the only person she can run to and she actually chooses him. But as soon as she realizes that Martin is still alive she switches back to uncertain.

After all she is still very young and everything is a game to her. She just relishes in that situation to the fullest, beliveing she is in controll. At the moment she sees Martin is still alive everything she learned (and that we as the audience think she learned for good) is gone again.

Thus is the nature of children: they push and push and push till they can't push no more. They only learn the hard way, if ever. When they come to an impass they simply look for another, most often even worse way, to go further.

Agnes is exactly like that and JJLs portrail of that is just stunning. But as I quoted David Cronenberg once before: "JJL doesn`t really act. She becomes the characters she is supposed to portray. If she doesn`t act she doesn`t have a personality of her own."
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

> Ok. We might not disagree as much as I thought.

And that made you sore - why?
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

> I'm not really sure what you mean?

Don`t tore about it. I was making with the funny.
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] thewitchclan 18 years ago

Do you really think Agnes had feelings for Martin or did she have a case of Stockholm syndrome?

reply

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

> Do you really think Agnes had feelings for Martin or did she have a case of
> Stockholm syndrome?

I couldn`t say definite. Beeing so young she likes to play.

I guess at a certain point she kinda accepts her situation because there seems no hope. At this point she probally at least tries to feel someting for Martin.

But as soon as Steven shows up again there is hope again and as such her feelings probaly change from semi-affection to survival.

This movie portrays human nature very well and if you watch it intensly and numorus times you can find a lot of nuances in the characters.
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] a-a-d 18 years ago

They didn't have Stockholm syndrome back then... You have to be civilized and very sheltered to get that!

In those times, a woman's best bet was to spread her legs to the strongest male and hope that he likes what he gets. She screws around with Steven's head using that mandrake root crap, not even flinching at the sight of the rotting hangmen... What feelings?! She didn't have any, or at least, wasn't supposed to, by the norms of the time.

She got hot for powerful males the way modern sluts get horny at the sight of rappers, Swiss bankers, and rich old geezers with one foot in the grave... As prostitutes say, "money [power] is what turns us on".

reply

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

> They didn't have Stockholm syndrome back then... You have to be civilized and
> very sheltered to get that!

They probally didn`t know what do called it and that it existed, but that`s what she had.

> In those times, a woman's best bet was to spread her legs to the strongest
> male and hope that he likes what he gets.

LOL. But that has been so and still is like that.

> She screws around with Steven's head using that mandrake root crap, not even
> flinching at the sight of the rotting hangmen...

Because she is more used to death then sex.

> What feelings?!

She had them, trust me. Even if she would`ve said different, she has them. It`s just the way she hid them.

> She didn't have any, or at least, wasn't supposed to, by the norms of the
> time.

Since women werrn`t considerd very usefull back then.

> She got hot for powerful males the way modern sluts get horny at the sight of
> rappers, Swiss bankers, and rich old geezers with one foot in the grave... As
> prostitutes say, "money [power] is what turns us on".

The more things changed, the more they stay the same.
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] Nothin_But_the_Rain 19 years ago

Man, thank god somebody else loves this movie as much as I do. Martin's hot beyond all reason. My friends and boyfriend all tease me for loving this movie so much.

reply

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 19 years ago

> [...] My friends and boyfriend all tease me for loving this movie so much.

They probally don't have any taste and are just jeoulus you got some. ;-)
--
"I used to be Tommy Verceti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] 19 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 19 years ago

> [...] my next step is to find it on dvd

It has been available on DVD as an RC-1 for a while now. By now it should even be a value title and you probally get it for less then 10$-US.

The RC-2/4 will be availbe AFAIK next week and shouldn`t cost more then 15€.
--
"I used to be Tommy Verceti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] PHILIUS 19 years ago

You can buy at play.com for £9.99 or play usa.com for £9.99 . Now order and enjoy!!

reply

[–] kpn3 18 years ago

"They probally don't have any taste and are just jeoulus you got some. ;-) "

Anyone who likes this movie, definitely shouldn't criticize anyone about taste.

Flesh & Blood = tasteless drivel.

reply

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

>> They probally don't have any taste and are just jeoulus you got some. ;-)
> Anyone who likes this movie, definitely shouldn't criticize anyone about
> taste. Flesh & Blood = tasteless drivel.

You probally think The Deep end of the Ocean is great art, too.
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] kpn3 18 years ago

"You probally think The Deep end of the Ocean is great art, too"

Um, actually I've never watched that movie. But I'm sure it can't be much worse than Flesh + Blood.

reply

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

>> You probally think The Deep end of the Ocean is great art, too"
> Um, actually I've never watched that movie. But I'm sure it can't be much
> worse than Flesh + Blood.

Actually it`s much, much worse. About as worse as calling The Thin Red line a good war movie.
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] kpn3 18 years ago

"About as worse as calling The Thin Red line a good war movie."

I didn't call the Thin Red Line a good war movie; it's a GREAT war movie - a masterpiece. I'm HARDLY surprised someone of your mentality lacks the intellectual capabilites to see the poetry and beauty of such a film. It's a genius work of art.

Sorry there's no mindless sex and violence in the film, I guess that's what you look for in a movie.

reply

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

>> About as worse as calling The Thin Red line a good war movie."
> (...) intellectual capabilites to see the poetry and beauty of such a film.
> It's a genius work of art.

I don`t fight you there. It`s a poetic movie. But it`s more a physedelic muesing about war. That doesn`t make it a great war movie. There just issn`t enough fighting in it to make it that. It`s an analysis about war. If I want that I listen to Dylan.

> Sorry there's no mindless sex and violence in the film, I guess that's what
> you look for in a movie.

It`s a start. It doesn`t need to be mindless, though.
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] MountainCreekBluEyedGirl 18 years ago

They probally don't have any taste and are just jeoulus you got some. ;-)

Anyone who likes this movie, definitely shouldn't criticize anyone abo

And youre a moron who doesnt know good movies.

reply

[–] legnadibrom 18 years ago

didn't know a girl could fall in love with her very own rapist

http://www.coprophagor.com/flatmar.htm

reply

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

> didn't know a girl could fall in love with her very own rapist

If she is young, sheltered and impressionable.
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] Nothin_But_the_Rain 18 years ago

Actually it happens more often than you might think.

reply

[–] legnadibrom 18 years ago

what sick world do y'all live in?

http://www.coprophagor.com/flatmar.htm

reply

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

> what sick world do y'all live in?

The real world that exists outside of the Disney-3-act Hollywood movies far from the makebelive world Danny Pettyn and other Pleasantville-blinders wearing Pollyana-thinking Bush-voting burbs live in.
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] legnadibrom 18 years ago

it's an unfathomable thought that a person could fall in love with their rapist and violator, it's an offense to humanity to suggest such a thing

http://www.coprophagor.com/flatmar.htm

reply

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

> it's an unfathomable thought (...)

If you add sick and offensive everybody knows where you come from sweetheart.

Why don`t you stay in you guarded community in the burbs and stay away from anything - especially movies! - that depict reallity?

I hope they pull a Violet on you one day so you`ll wake up from your slumber!
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] MountainCreekBluEyedGirl 18 years ago

it's an unfathomable thought that a person could fall in love with their rapist and violator, it's an offense to humanity to suggest such a thing

Is it just me or are there more and more Jack Thompson and Fred Phelps supporters creeping up on the IMDB boards?

reply

[–] Tank-the-Hatchet 18 years ago

> Is it just me (...)

It ain`t just you. More and more of these wanna be netcops are showing up here and makeing life misserabrle cause they don`t know the 1st ammendment (as long as you don`t lie - say any crazy thing you like) and the IMDB GeStaPo is supporting them, too.

> (...) creeping up on the IMDB boards?

"A billion dollars worth of weapons and all I really want is a can of Raid!"
--
"I used to be Tommy Vercetti, now I'm Phil Cassidy."

reply

[–] lex-kat 18 years ago

Actually, that's the definition of Stockholm Syndrom. It doesn't happen to all rape victims, just those that are kept in captivety & lose touch with their humanity.

There are treated badly & lose touch with reality. Then they begin to believe that this is the way "love" is.

It takes years to help them & restore their self-respect.

reply

[–] legnadibrom 18 years ago

a hollywood concotion invented to up the tension and drama and keep the perverts begging for more

http://www.coprophagor.com/flatmar.htm

reply

[–] lex-kat 18 years ago

Uh, what's a "hollywood concotion invented to up the tension and drama and keep the perverts begging for more"? Stockholm Syndrome?

No if anyone "invented it". It was the shrinks who finally gave a name to symptom of captivity. It is a historical fact. It has happened throughout history.

Even the black slaves of the southern half of U.S.A., occasionally felt love for their masters. And not just the women & house slaves, but some of the male field slaves also.

reply

[–] legnadibrom 18 years ago

i'm not going to let you turn this into a debate about homosexuality

http://www.coprophagor.com/flatmar.htm

reply

[–] lex-kat 18 years ago

>I'm not going to let you turn this into a debate about homosexuality

Never said anything about homosexuality.

People can "love" each other in a non-sexual way you know. I love my brother (well, not really) but it's brotherly love. I love my best friend Phil. Again, nothing sexual. But I would do near anything for him.

Are you a super-christian or what?

reply

[–] oana5874 17 years ago

Hey I tell ya if Rutger Hauer (at that age) would have raped me I'd have definitely develop that sindrome you're talking about:)..

reply

[–] axecrox 17 years ago

I cant be bothered to read all these posts especially if they go on about homosexuality etc.

But the Original Poster stated that she loves all films set in the dark ages.

I hope to f-k everyone on here knows that 1501 (the year this film is set in) was 450 years after the end of the so-called Dark Age. Its really set in the start of the Rennaisance era.

Just wanted to make that clear.

Ill Bore off now.

reply

[–] reikun86 16 years ago

Was this set in England? It's been a long time since I saw this movie.
But if it was in England, it was the last place the Renaissance entered. At this time, Italy was in its artistic peak with Michelangelo, Da Vinci, and Raphael. England had to start from scratch.

reply

[–] axecrox 16 years ago

This film is set in Italy (i think) but filmed in Spain ( i think -again).

Definitely not set in England.

I get what your saying about Englands Renaissance period being very different and perhaps later than Italys, but each Nation experienced the change from Middle ages (i cant spell medieaveal) to more enlightened ages in its own way and in its own time.

For England you could argue that it actually benefitted far more from the advances of the Rennaisance as the Catholic church was kicked out and replaced with a far more "enlightened" and forward thinking religion. This didnt happen in Italy ofcourse.

As far as art or religious art is concerned the Renaissance period was pretty barren in England. but then again how many paintings of semi naked men and fat women do you want?

:)

reply

[–] soue37-1 16 years ago

I've just finished watching this movie a few minutes ago. I really enjoyed it. What I admired most about it is the way it avoided most of the cliches that many period films suffer. It also avoided having a sort of 'cookie-cutter' story and plot. Most Ancient/Medieval films usually follow the same pattern of epic battles, tacked on love story and one dimensional characters. This film tried to approach the period in a different manner, and for that I applaud it.

reply

[–] zinka-zec 8 years ago

well, this is a middle age, you know that it is called the dark age? Rape was a normal thing then, it was happening every day. Brides were rape at their wedding night by old person who had a bit of gold and could buy a bride. After a city fall every female was raped. And they would be glad if they didn't killed them after. I don't think she fell in love with him cos of rape, she used him to be protected from other person who would like to rape her. But he was little better then others, and she didn't want him to die in the end.

I like the brutal reality of this movie. Every middle age movie is trying to show a love story, or a honor warrior, but the truth is,they weren't a brave warriors full of honor who would w8 for their princess and treat her with respect.

Do i love this movie? no, but i like that movie is brave enough to show things as they were.

If you don't like it, good for you.

reply

[–] mreed1 16 years ago

I love this one too! Can't explain it, under-realized flick. I believe the acting was fantastic and great character development.

How can it be that I...didn't exist before...and...someday, I...will no longer be who I am?

reply

[–] xmagic_dustx 16 years ago

I watched it for the first time yesterday and I loved it! Its definitely one of my favourite films now!

"Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy night!"

reply

[–] PrivateBozz (156) 7 years ago

I rewatched it yesterday after 20 years or something and it's still as awesome as I remembered it. I love how the ending is left somewhat open and you could easily see the characters cross paths again someday, especially since Agnes seems to care about Martin in some way after all. Very enteraining and unconventional movie with great actors.

reply