MovieChat Forums > The Terminator (1984) Discussion > He can not be his father!

He can not be his father!

posted 9 years ago by nedeljkodjukic88
73 replies | jump to latest

(Spoilers ahead)

There are two reasonable possibilities but none of them fits the actual plot of this movie:

1. Kyle Reese is an adult man (over 30), living in 2029 and born after nuclear catastrophe. There's no John Connor at that time. Reese goes back to past (1984), has sex with Sarah Connor and eventually dies. Their son grows to be John Connor - leader of resistance movement in 2029,

or

2. Kyle Reese is an adult man, living in 2029 alongside John Connor, leader of resistance movement, who is probably a couple of years older than him, because he was conceived before nuclear catastrophe. Reese goes back to past (1984), has sex with Sarah Connor and eventually dies. By doing so, he messes up big time - John Connor the leader of resistance movement is never born and doesn't exist in 2029. Kyle and Sarah have another baby, but that can't be the John Connor from where Reese started off.

[–] Errauko 9 years ago

Or… B-Theory Time.

[–] nedeljkodjukic88 9 years ago

Yeah, I really like that theory. Einstein, Newton, Hawking, etc. proposed it.

But I don't see how it can be applied in this movie's plot..?

[–] Errauko 9 years ago

I've never heard of B-Theory being associated with Newton and frankly, it doesn't seem too likely to me that he would've been a proponent, but I could be wrong. I'd be very interested if you could cite a source on that. I do know that the idea goes all the way back to ancient Greece, but in modern times the most compelling reason to believe it is Einstein's Theory of Relativity. I believe Hawking's work is mostly, if not entirely, built on Einstein's work, so it's also safe to say that he is a proponent of B-Theory as well.

In any case, B-Theory is the idea that the passage of time is an illusion, and that there is no real difference between Past, Present and Future. For this reason, it is also referred to as Un-tensed Time. This also implies that since things are not "coming into existence" as they appear to be, they must've always just existed, hence the term "Eternalism."

When science fiction writers started to think about the potential consequences of travelling to the past, those who embraced B-Theory realized that if the future already exists, then any time traveller from the future would already exist in the past. Anything he does, he already did and therefore, has already affected his past.

It might help to think of Time as a book in which everything is in chronological order. You might be reading page 200, but the book existed in its entirety before you ever picked it up. Pages 1 to 199 still exist, while every subsequent page exists already. So suppose you get to page 500 and at that point, a time traveller goes back to page 100. In this case, if you want to see what happens to the time traveller next, you would flip back to page 100. Since it's not as if the book is going to start re-writing itself just because you happened to read the time travel event on page 500, we have to conclude that the time traveller must've always been on page 100. Anything he does on page 100 will affect what happened on the next pages, which will affect the next pages, and so on right up to page 500 and beyond.

So for example, if the time traveller has a son on page 110, and that son knows his father was a time traveller and makes a point of tracking him down later on in order to send him back in time, then it makes perfect sense that the son could be the one to send the father back in time. Every event progresses logically from what came before, it's just that thanks to time traveller, the causes of these events form a loop. Hence the term, Causal Loop. I've come to prefer this to the term "Pre-destination Paradox" because the suffix, "Pre" gives the word a tense and thus implies A-Theory.

[–] Kruleworld 9 years ago

Kyle and Sarah have another baby, but that can't be the John Connor from where Reese started off.

I think it's obvious the film writer and director were going for the romantic "i came across time for you, Sarah" idea.

Forget all this back and forth alternate timelines and stuff, as they are not shown, covered or mentioned. From the movie's point of view, they don't exist.

Kyle is John's father and that's it. If skynet hadn't sent a terminator back to kill John's mother, then John wouldn't have been born....

It’s ridiculous to critique a movie with the argument 'it's not real, so it doesn't matter'

[–] igetitfaster 9 years ago

From the movie's point of view, they don't exist.

But people who watched the movies feel that the movies support the idea.

If skynet hadn't sent a terminator back to kill John's mother, then John wouldn't have been born....

But Skynet had nothing to do with Sarah being a female of childbearing potential. Nor did Skynet invent the name 'John'.

In fact, statistically speaking, there is a greater likelihood that Sarah names a son born to her 'John' than any other name. It is one of the most popular male names in America, more so in the mid 80's.

https://youtu.be/nzAHhZW0tQM?t=4m34s
Watch Me Win

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] gabby_bm 9 years ago

I think Skynet stopped acting rationally after a certain point. I think its emotional outburst of desperation indicates that it had advanced beyond simple AI and achieved a higher degree of consciousness. Hence, the act of "murder-suicide" via time displacement

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[–] miserycounty 9 years ago

The time line with Dyson is only relevant because they failed to kill Sarah. Skynet would have been created regardless but with the added tech left behind after T1 the process was sped up.

[–] basementartmedia 9 years ago

This article has been around for over a decade. It's from a site that explains temporal anomalies in time travel films and does it very well.

http://mjyoung.net/time/terminat.html

[–] trifocal_skink 9 years ago

I stopped reading when I realised that he can't even spell Connor properly.

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

or

3. Kyle Reese is an adult man (in his 20s or 30s), living in 2029 and born after a nuclear catastrophe. There is John Connor, Kyle's son, and he is 43 or 44 years old. Reese goes back to the past (1984), has sex with Sarah Connor, and eventually dies. Their son grows up to be John Connor - leader of the resistance movement in 2029.

[–] gabby_bm 9 years ago

I like "option 3". It really fits in with what the movie is trying to say.

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[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

It's the only scenario that fits. The photo and Sarah's action support this and deny the others, remember.

[–] nedeljkodjukic88 9 years ago

Their son grows up to be John Connor - leader of the resistance movement in 2029.

But that just can't be the SAME John Connor that already existed as such before Reese traveled back to past and interfered it. I explained it in the option 2. of my original message.

[–] wears-alan 9 years ago

You're not thinking 4th dimensionally.

It wasnt me, it was the other three. Hang them!

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

It is the nature of this story, otherwise how could the photograph exist? Kyle already had it before he traveled to the past, yet it shows Sarah Connor in a very particular situation after her life was radically changed, after everyone she cared about had died, including Kyle himself. The specific look on her face, her clothes, her headband, her Jeep, her dog, the pinatas above her, even the exact orientation of the hairs on her forehead. That was the bittersweet irony at the end. Kyle had wondered earlier, "You looked just a little sad. I always used to wonder what you were thinking about at that moment." We find out she was thinking of him.

Kyle didn't interfere with it. He had set things as they always had been. You said in your original post that your 2 options didn't fit the plot. This is why. You're not thinking 4th-dimensionally.

Another clue is that Sarah had gone into hiding before the war, and prepared her son John from when he was a kid. Reese explained this to her when he is telling her she is a legend. The only way Sarah could have prepared for a surprise nuclear attack is if someone told her about it. Kyle had told her about it.

Other movies do this too. In Twelve Monkeys, Bruce Willis' character always had nightmares about the memory of a man being shot dead at an airport when he was a boy. At the end, the ill-fated man was actually him.

- Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure
- The Butterfly Effect
- Donnie Darko
- Interstellar (the new Nolan flick)
- Looper

[–] nedeljkodjukic88 9 years ago

Yeah, I guess I just can't do that - think 4th-dimensionally. How about Back to the Future, is it applied in that movie?

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

That whole "you're not thinking 4th-dimensionally" is just a quote from Doc Brown in Back to the Future, that's all.

You can. It's just suspending disbelief because you know it's just a science fiction movie. Just think that going to the past means going to the only version of the past there ever was. If you ever go back in time to 1984, then you had always been part of the past in 1984. There is no actual universal present day. So the world doesn't have to reach 2029 naturally before time travelers can go back and change the events of 1984 from some previous reality. The time travelers arrive in 1984 first, then many years later in 2029, they leave. There was no version of 1984 without the time travelers.

In Back to the Future, no, it doesn't apply. You can see that Marty McFly's parents became the way they were without Marty's influence in the past. Then they changed because of Marty's presence after he went back there. His father became a confident successful author instead of the loser he used to be (still being picked on by the high school bully), and his mother became a healthy and happy woman instead of the unhealthy drinker and smoker she used to be. They changed because of time travel.

In The Terminator, the time travelers made everything the same as it ever was. That's why Kyle had a picture of Sarah that resulted from his and the terminator's presence in the past. Nothing ever changed. It's only in the last scene when the photo is actually taken that you can see this is the case.

[–] Ruf86 9 years ago

It is the nature of this story, otherwise how could the photograph exist

We never see Kyle's picture of Sarah, so we don't know if it's the same picture from the end of the movie. Kyle with this exact same picture only appear in Sarah's dream, thus is not real.

Also, this picture could be taken literally anywhere in the world, not only at this particular gas station in Mexico. And looking a little sad on a picture is not out of this world.

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

That's Kyle's flashback, not Sarah's dream. Besides, how could Sarah dream this exact photo? She didn't even know that there was a photo at this time, let alone the exact details of it.

It had to be taken there. It's the surroundings, the moment. It's exactly the same photo.

[–] Ruf86 9 years ago

No, it's Sarah's dream. We see the war scene and then Sarah wakes up. Kyle's flashback is earlier in the movie and features no picture of Sarah.

How can she dream about a picture taken of her in the future? Stuff like that happens to people all the time. Even the slightest details in a dream can occur in reality.

Also, Kyle told her of the picture right before she fell asleep. It's only logical she would dream about Kyle with the picture as a result. He also told her she looked sad on it, so in her dream she looks sad on the picture.

[–] greg-233 9 years ago

"Also, Kyle told her of the picture right before she fell asleep. It's only logical she would dream about Kyle with the picture as a result. He also told her she looked sad on it, so in her dream she looks sad on the picture."

Reese told Sarah about this photograph at the motel. Until that time, she had no knowledge of it. Sarah wasn't dreaming about Reese holding the photo in the future, that actually WAS one of Reese's flashbacks.

[–] Ruf86 9 years ago

Just watched the movie for 100th time yesterday. The photograph appears for the first time in Sarah's dream sequence of Kyle and the war.

Which in turn means we never actually see Kyle with the picture, thus we have no idea if it's the same picture Kyle is talking about.

Again, this is no fan fiction or what I think or what I want to believe. This is all 100% of what is shown in the movie and no speculation on my part. You need to watch the movie again.

[–] gabby_bm 9 years ago

That's Kyle's dream. Sarah only says, upon waking, that she was dreaming of dogs - to which Kyle says they use them to spot HK's.

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[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

Sorry, Ruf86. Sarah does not have psychic powers. Everything about it indicates it's Kyle's dream/flashback. Where did you get that it's Sarah's dream?

"Also, Kyle told her of the picture right before she fell asleep."

NO. That was later at the motel. And greg-233 just told you that, and you ignored him. Watch the movie again.

"We see the war scene and then Sarah wakes up."

No, we see Sarah's photo burning in the fire, then we see another view of Sarah sleeping/waking. It was Sarah cross-fading to Sarah again; that's what confused you. She had no knowledge of the photo at the time.

This conversation was intelligent before. Stop ruining it just because you got the events wrong.

[–] Ruf86 9 years ago

Where did you get that it's Sarah's dream?

No, we see Sarah's photo burning in the fire, then we see another view of Sarah sleeping/waking

You just answered your own question.

It's not about psychic powers. I often dream things, which would happen the exact same way later on and I don't have psychic powers. How hard is it to fathom that she dreams of a picture of herself on a sunny day with a dog in the background and that pic will someday be taken?!

Yes, the motel part is correct but is besides the point. If by intelligent conversation, you mean fan fiction, talking about "causal loops" and time paradoxes and stuff like that, you're right I'm ruining it with stating facts and talking about things, which actually happened in the movie and are not made up.

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

Stating facts like Kyle told her about the photo before she fell asleep in the tunnel? Facts like that? 

It's not fan fiction if the writer/director said he did it.

And it's not a "casual loop", it's a causal loop.

Jesus!

[–] Ruf86 9 years ago

Jesus!

I appreciate the compliment, but it doesn't take Jesus to get the movie, which obviously you didn't.

It's not fan fiction if the writer/director said he did it

What did he say and when he did he tell you?

And here's an free advice to you: using misspelling, if on purpose or by accident (and I let anyone decide which was the case here) really screams desperate
Speaking of desperate, you're bringing the motel scene up again after we've cleared that up already?! Ok

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

I'll tell you right after you tell me where Kyle talked about the photo before Sarah fell asleep in the tunnel.

[–] Ruf86 9 years ago

Up until now, I wasn't so sure. Turns out I was trolled by an eleven year old. Hope you had your little fun, now go ask your daddy to get you a Happy Meal with some freaking toy, but please don't eat it, you might choke on it. Wait a minute ...

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

Mention of the photo before we see it is where?

[–] igetitfaster 9 years ago



https://youtu.be/nzAHhZW0tQM?t=4m34s
Watch Me Win

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

Hey, you can believe whatever you want. I just hoped you might have based it on the correct order of the events in the movie.

[–] Ruf86 9 years ago

I just found a picture of myself looking sad on a sunny day with my dog in the background. Damn I must have been thinking about how my girlfriend from the future just got killed by a killing machine also from the future and she warned me that Judgment Day was upon us.

I mean that's the only reason I could have for looking sad on a picture, right?! Either that, or I was thinking about this conversation with you.

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

No change to her life caused by the events of the movie? She was going to have a dog instead of an iguana, a Jeep instead of a scooter, different clothes including a headband, and get that exact photo taken in or near Mexico at that exact gas station with that exact arrangement of pinatas at that exact moment, with that exact expression on her face and that exact arrangement of hair on her forehead, a few months after no Kyle and no Terminator were there and none of her friends or family were killed by a machine?

How does any storyteller relay the message any better than this that a photograph resulted from experiences?

And you said Sarah was told about the photograph before the future sequence showing the photograph. When did that happen?

[–] Ruf86 9 years ago

none of her friends or family were killed by a machine

Her mother was killed by the Terminator, her two best friends were killed by the Terminator and Kyle indirectly was also killed by the Terminator. That's the four most important people in her life. Do you ever watch the movies you post about?!

And you said Sarah was told about the photograph before the future sequence showing the photograph. When did that happen

And right after I said that I got the order of scenes wrong, that was like a week ago, but obviously you don't even read the posts you're replying to.

But whether he told her about the picture is not the point. The point is, she dreamed about the picture, the same picture that gets taken off her. Call it self fulfilling prophecy, destiny or just a major coincidence, I don't care what you wanna call it.

The point is, we never really see Kyle with that picture. We only see Kyle with the picture in Sarah's dream, that is no proof that Kyle had that same exact picture.

Sure, Cameron might want you to look at it this way, because that's his job: Make us, the viewer, think about the film after it's over and therefore leave a lot of room for speculation and different possibilties of interpretation. And isn't that what makes movies (and this one in particular) fun to begin with?!

You speculate, it's the same exact photo that Kyle has in the future, ok whatever works for you, more power to ya. I only judge by what I see and what I see is the picture only appears in Sarah's dream and Kyle might have the same picture or a very similar picture or a totally different (except the sad part) picture.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, I guess.

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

Do you ever watch the movies you post about?!

Do you? You got the order of the scenes wrong.

I was talking about an alternate version of 1984 without time travelers in it. That's what you think happened, isn't it?

Why should that photo exist if none of that stuff happened?

And right after I said that I got the order of scenes wrong, that was like a week ago, but obviously you don't even read the posts you're replying to.

You never admitted it. You completely skirted around it, denying there was any significance to it.

[–] Ruf86 9 years ago

t completely eliminates any chance she dreams of it. Your whole case relied on her being told there was a photo.

No it didn't. Being told about it before she falls asleep makes it more likely that she'll dream about it, but she can still dream about it without being told.

In your words, I can only dream about something when someone tells me about it beforehand?! What stupid crap is that?!

There is no reason to think that was Sarah's dream at all. You just said it was.

We see the war scene, dogs are barking and people are crying and it ends with the picture in flames. We cut to Sarah waking up in Kyle's arms, who was not sleeping, telling him she was dreaming.

Cameron might want you to look at it this way

Then that's the story he wrote. So it's what happened.

You need to learn to read. I said "might", not "100% positively, definitely, undoubtedly did".

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

It's quite a coincidence that she would imagine a photo without any knowledge of it beforehand, and have the details so precise. If it's Kyle's memory, it's explained perfectly; no coincidence required.

It's a picture of Sarah cutting to another image of Sarah. It's common in movies, and it doesn't mean it's her dream. Kyle doesn't need to sleep to have a flashback.

[–] Kruleworld 9 years ago

I was talking about an alternate version of 1984 without time travelers in it.

no such time line exists or is shown in this movie to suggest there is one (unlike Back to the Future or star trek). There is no 'prime' timeline, and Kyle always did come to 1984. That's why they talk about Judgement Day being inevitable.

if it did exist, it was destroyed the instant the time displacement equipment was fired up.

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

It certainly doesn't exist, no.

[–] igetitfaster 9 years ago

Terminator Genesys shows us that alternate timelines are a fact of Time travel in the Terminator universe.

Also, the film does plenty to suggest it - one need only remove their blinders and pay attention. If your frame of reference is Back to the Future or Star Trek suffice it to say you are misinformed.

Furthermore, 'judgment day' as an inevitability is a consequence of nuclear weapons existing with AI in control of them. Just like the wheel was an inevitability. Crediting a person or persons for something that is the product of zeitgeist...what is that?

https://youtu.be/nzAHhZW0tQM?t=4m34s
Watch Me Win

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

Tagline: The rules have been reset.

In other words, they can do whatever they want. They added to or changed the rules of the Terminator universe, including the time travel aspect. There is no guarantee this follows anything set out in the first movie.

[–] igetitfaster 9 years ago

There is no guarantee this follows anything set out in the first movie.

Of course it does. It is a continuation of the story started in the first movie.

https://youtu.be/nzAHhZW0tQM?t=4m34s
Watch Me Win

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

A continuation, but the rules have been reset.

[–] gabby_bm 9 years ago

Maybe the entirety of the first Terminator movie was just Sarah's dream....

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[–] Keltster 9 years ago

This is what we call "good storytelling through filmmaking". Sarah repeatedly asks Kyle to tell her what it's like where he comes from. We then cut to HIS recollections and memories of past events. When the scene ends we focus on the picture as a transitional shot to the real Sarah waking up and talking about dreaming of dogs. We're supposed to understand that Kyle was telling her these stories as she drifted off and they became part of her dreams but what we saw were HIS recollections and not her dreams. I doubt she dreamed of that exact photo or that Kyle even mentioned that photo in the first place. The scene is cleverly trying to show us how the very real nightmare of Kyles life is now bleeding over into Sarah's dreams and eventual real life.

[–] originalcomputerhandyman 9 years ago

Actually he could be: If kyle reese in 2029 is actually kyle reese the 2nd and he and his father look so much alike that they are almost twins in appearance. (there is real world precedent for this father son resemblance) In the original timeline sarah meets kyle reese the first and gets pregnant and has john. Kyle the first then meets someone else and sarah goes on to normal history until judgment day. Then in 2029 john hears intel about the time D. device and meets kyle the second and mistakes him for kyle the first. He then mistakenly thinks the timeline has been altered and he must send kyle the second back to save history later on when he is able to access the time d. device. Skynet sends the first terminator back altering sarahs path away from kyle the first who goes on to meet the other woman and still fathers kyle the second. Then when john sends back kyle the second back this alters history again causing sarah to meet kyle the second. Sarah gets pregnant from him instead of his lookalike father in the new timeline. Thus closing the loop. A bit of a stretch but quite possible if time travel were a reality. Being that few records were left after judgment day John would have no way to know there were 2 kyles. The movie series deal with another loop that's more linear: skynet originally comes from 2 guys working at the factory where the first terminator is destroyed. Originally they decide to go into business for themselves and one of them handles the financial part while the other handle R&D. In a drug fueled haze he invents the neural chip and skynet is born. He then dies of a drug overdose and his partner continues the company (cyberdyne). When the first terminator goes back the timeline changes and the 2 guys find parts of the terminator and study them. The R&D guy starts developing the chip but dies of his overdose before it's finished and Miles Dyson takes over R&D and completes it. Unknown to anyone in T2 all his data is being duplicated at a remote government facility. The second set of terminators get sent back and the line is again altered with cyberdyne being blown up and judgment day postponed. The data at the government facilty is used to develop skynet later on in a new software form with the neural chip being only secondary in development for autonomous terminator units (terminator 3 rise of the machines.) The 3rd set of terminators gets sent back altering the line yet again giving us terminator salvation. Kyle the second is again found by john and presumably gets sent back to the past later on. The effects on the line are yet to be seen in terminator genisys. (note another father son lookalike theme with time travel was used in back to the future part 2.)

[–] originalcomputerhandyman 9 years ago

Actually he could be: If kyle reese in 2029 is actually kyle reese the 2nd and he and his father look so much alike that they are almost twins in appearance. (there is real world precedent for this father son resemblance) In the original timeline sarah meets kyle reese the first and gets pregnant and has john. Kyle the first then meets someone else while sarah is on the run with john after encountering the first terminator and fathers kyle the second. Then in 2029 john hears intel about the time D. device and meets kyle the second and mistakes him for kyle the first. He then mistakenly thinks the timeline has been altered and he must send kyle the second back to save history later on when he is able to access the time d. device. When skynet sends back the first terminator it alters history and kyle the first doesn't meet sarah but meets the someone else and fathers kyle the second. Kyle the second does meet sarah when he goes back and sarah gets pregnant from him instead of his lookalike father in the new timeline. Thus closing the loop. A bit of a stretch but quite possible if time travel were a reality. Being that few records were left after judgment day John would have no way to know there were 2 kyles. The movie series deal with another loop that's more linear: skynet originally comes from 2 guys working at the factory where the first terminator is destroyed. Originally they decide to go into business for themselves and one of them handles the financial part while the other handle R&D. In a drug fueled haze he invents the neural chip and skynet is born. he then dies of a drug overdose and his partner continues the company (cyberdyne) When the first terminator goes back the timeline changes and the 2 guys find parts of the terminator and study them. The R&D guy starts developing the chip but dies of his overdose before its finished and miles dyson takes over R&D and completes it. Unknown to anyone in T2 all his data is being duplicated at a remote government facility. The second set of terminators get sent back and the line is again altered with cyberdyne being blown up and judgment day postponed. The data at the government facilty is used to develop skynet later on in a new software form with the chip being only secondary in development for autonomous terminator units (terminator 3 rise of the machines.) The 3rd set of terminators gets sent back altering the line yet again. The effects on the line are yet to be seen in terminator genisys. (note a similar father son lookalike theme with time travel was used in back to the future part 2.)

[–] miserycounty 9 years ago

John connor would be 44 in 2029 and Reese is 28 years old when he gets sent back in time. It makes perfect sense with the film's plot. I don't understand your point at all.

[–] watcher101 9 years ago

There had to be an "original" timeline. In it, there was no Terminator that came back to kill Sarah, so John's father was most likely a boyfriend of hers, possibly the one she was supposed to see that night. When Skynet sent the terminator back for the first time and Kyle went after it, which begins the repetitive time loop, he becomes John's father in every time after that in all other timelines. Sarah clearly knows that John's father is Kyle. This was why when we saw John's profile in T2, his father was listed as unknown. Since Kyle hadn't been born yet in that timeline, there was no DNA evidence of his existence. Had John's father been anyone else, a blood test would have identified them. And they would have done a blood test to find out since it involved a terrorist attempt. But there was no evidence of Kyle, so John's father was listed as "unknown".

[–] igetitfaster 9 years ago

So the consensus is that we see the photograph in Kyle's dream, not Sarah's?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmK8-13LTqI
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[–] gabby_bm 9 years ago

I don't think it's Kyle's dream but his memory as he's telling Sarah about what his time in the future is like.

Of course, I like to think that what we see is fairly accurate of 2029 Earth, rather than Sarah's dreamy and fantastical interpretation of it.

I don’t need you to tell me how good my coffee is.. 
.

[–] mradam-3 9 years ago

This story doesn't need an original timeline without time travelers. You're thinking of Back to the Future.

[–] Kruleworld 8 years ago

by watcher101
There had to be an "original" timeline.

If you believe that, then you're not thinking fourth dimensionally (time) because once you introduce time travel no one can 'see how it used to be', it just IS. When Sarah asks him what it's like to time-travel, he says "It's like being born". so if you think of Reese being born in 1984 as an adult, conceives his son and dies. then later is born naturally and dies when he's 'sent back in time'

it wouldn't be like Marty in Back to the Future coming back to 1985 and being surprised his family is now different, since that's the family he would have grown up with after the timeline changed, so he wouldn't remember the old timeline. This fits with Doc's "alternate reality" theory that time travel changes kick off a new universe that's slightly different from the old one. There's actually a new Marty created each time he time travels (which is why can 'see himself' at Lone Pine Mall).

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

[–] wrlord2001 9 years ago

Nonsense. What happens is what always happened. The end.

[–] TwoThousandOneMark 8 years ago

Precisely. There is only one timeline in that universe, & while there is time travel, nothing changes - & yet everything does.
There was never not going to be a John Connor, & there was never not going to be Kyle & Sarah conceiving him.

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