MovieChat Forums > Z (1969) Discussion > Homosexual = evil

Homosexual = evil

posted 17 years ago by ducdebrabant
27 replies | jump to latest

One thing that does date the film is the use of homosexuality as a handy metaphor for evil, and a way to turn the audience further against the villains. When we find out Renato Salvatori and one of his co-conspirators are gay, that's all it adds, it seems to me. Actually, Salvatori is such an engaging actor that it made it kind of hot. Costa-Gavras did exactly the same thing in "Compartiment tueurs" ("The Sleeping Car Murders"). Homosexuality is such a shorthand for unprincipled, lawless, uprooted, antisocial ruthlessness in his mind that he employs it as a kind of motivation. If guys will do THAT, they'll do ANYTHING.
--------------
***Every troll is not a shill, but every shill is a troll.***

[–] funnylookingmonkey 17 years ago

used much the same in bertolucci's 'the conformist' -- still a masterpiece, but it's an aspect of the film that hasn't dated as well as the rest.

[–] tjantus 17 years ago

In this film, and even moreso in the book from which it was made, it is not so much that the characters are homosexual as it is that they are pederasts. The right-wing government that employs them as muscle is violently anti-homosexual, equating it with pacifism, communism, liberal values, and everything else that the right-wing then (and now) despises.

That it not only employs, but encourages the brutal thugs to indulge in their vices--and I mean rape, pederasty, alcoholism, spousal abuse, and random acts of violence--only is meant to demonstrate that the government is not only hypocritical, but completely and utterly ammoral as well.

[–] Clatskanie 8 years ago

Good points all.

LL

[–] thebigheat 15 years ago

I think the conformist handled homosexuality thing much better than this movie. In Z the evil characters are sort of one dimensional.
---------------
tu ne cede malis

[–] Hancock_the_Superb 9 years ago

We could add Oliver Stone's JFK and Nixon to the list.

I';m afraid that you underestimate the number of subjects in which I take an interest!

[–] funnylookingmonkey 9 years ago

True.
Continues to persist. The latest Rambo and even Unbroken are two recent examples that come to mind.

I certainly admire people who do things.

[–] pipeoxide 17 years ago

It wasn't homosexuality that was equated with 'evil', but the decadent, pedophilic character of Yago (or was it Vago?) and how it clashed with the ultra-machismo rhetoric of the far-right conservatives that employed him.

Same thing in "The Conformist"...it's the degenerate version of homosexuality (pederasty/pedophilia) that's being used for moral effect.

Look at Visconti's "The Damned" for example. According to your logic Visconti (an openly gay director) was equating homosexuality with evil? I think not. All three films don't critisize homosexuality but it's deranged, darker forms.

Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez

[–] Eumenides_0 15 years ago

All three films don't critisize homosexuality but it's deranged, darker forms.

Oh come now, it was standard practice at the time to portray Nazis, fascists and villains in general as homosexuals, child molesters or just plain sexual sadists. It saved having to actually give them a three-dimensional personality. This didn't just happen in movies but in the literature of the time too. Gore Vidal even wrote a lovely article about it. The Night Porter and 120 Days of Sodom are two other examples of this trend.

This equation of homosexuality with evil jumped at me immediately when I saw the movie and it's the only flaw in the movie. It's a much bolder choice to give these people personalities.

This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.

[–] PoppyTransfusion 10 years ago

It's a much bolder choice to give these people personalities.

The minor players on both sides were not the most developed personalities. The irony is that Vago, for it was he who was the child rapist and possible homosexual, did have personality!

I give my respect to those who have earned it; to everyone else, I'm civil.

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Hancock_the_Superb 9 years ago

To be fair, The Damned equates pretty much all sex with evil. The Brownshirt orgy is just the most extreme demonstration.

I'm afraid that you underestimate the number of subjects in which I take an interest!

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Hancock_the_Superb 9 years ago

I was replying to Pipeoxide.

I'm afraid that you underestimate the number of subjects in which I take an interest!

[–] ergo2497 16 years ago

Pretty definite proof that it isn't:

The ending lists among its things that the government banned

"Writing that Socrates was homosexual"...

This banning is clearly intended to be seen as a bad thing.

[–] amgolla 16 years ago

In the end, homosexuality is one thing that's banned, the rightists' platform is for "God" and "values" and against "indiscriminate liberty." They want to protect the morals of youth. You also see one of the top brass saying "I went to the ballet ... not for the dancing, I don't go in for that type of perversion." Vago makes it clear that it's not really about values at all...he's an unashamed murderer, thief, rapist, and happy to indulge himself in gay sex. Moreover, the very thought of violence makes him horny. His character symbolizes that the right is the party really and defiling *beep* Greek youth.

It's only because the right says going after boys is somehow more perverse than raping girls (which, I suppose for most of them, would be a "natural" urge) that portraying Vago as gay/pederast has bite.

Although --- showing the character as gay does make him seem more hedonistic ---aware of what he wants and unconstrained by what others may think (it would be a very different message if he was ashamed of his sexuality or in a relationship). Maybe that is "if he'll do that, he'll do anything."

Still, I don't think many people who would watch this film would take away the message that gays are antisocial.

[–] petersj-2 16 years ago

what clever posts! Is the movie available?

[–] sionxxii 10 years ago

It's in there to point out that Yago/Vago life style would have been tolerated by the man that they murdered, unlike the political party they supported and killed for.

[–] Eumenides_0 10 years ago

Wait, child abuse and rape would have been tolerated by a communist? I don't think that's what the movie defends, it certainly doesn't speak well of communism, and let's not forget Costa-Gavras is a communist.

This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel.

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] yusef-ghanima 9 years ago

sodomization is evil

[–] Golem36 8 years ago

"sodomization is evil"

  

[–] first-things-first 9 years ago

And it forces us to re-think what is evil. Homosexuality is used to force us to look at who is really evil in society. The use of free speech to harass and intimidate. It's apowerful tool to oppress.
Edit: in reality, anyone could do what the characters did. They just need the right motivation.

Your second life is never like your first. Sometimes it's even better

[–] DimitrisIMDb 9 years ago

the actual person that the character is based on was in reality convinced for pederasty. this movie depicts very accurately, aside from the names, facts that really happened in greece in mid 60's, so this may be just an adaption of the real facts into the film.