MovieChat Forums > Paris brûle-t-il ? (1966) Discussion > Propaganda

Propaganda

posted 15 years ago by Jazzist-H-Crisp
17 replies | jump to latest

Compared to Le Chagrin et La Pitee (The Sorrow and the Pity), this is pure propaganda. Suddenly all the French are in the Resistance - whereas in Le Chagrin, which is documentary, you hear the collaborators explaining why they supported the Germans. One reason, which this film is unaware of, is that many French were right-wing Catholics and they were taking their lead from Pope Pius (Ratti) who supported Franco, Mussolini and Hitler, because they were fighting communism. So the scene of the Catholic priest helping the Resistance is pure propaganda and totally misleading.

The only good thing in this film is Gert Frobe as the German general in charge of Paris. Frobe's portrayal is most convincing and he creates an interesting, troubled and believable character for the general. Sadly, however, Frobe's work is not enough to save the film, which is in every other respect juvenile and ill-informed.

[–] tracyfigueira 15 years ago

Get your popes straight. Ratti was Pius XI; Pacelli was his successor, Pius XII. Pius XI tended to be more outspoken and straightshooting than Pius XII; for instance, he wrote his anti-nazi encyclical "Mit brennende Sorge" in German just so they would get the point. Pacelli, as Cardinal Secretary of State under Ratti, was responsible for the concordats between the Vatican and Italy and Germany. He was more of an appeaser.

[–] Jazzist-H-Crisp 15 years ago

Ratti was pope throughout the 1930s. He struck deals with Mussolini and Hitler, the former to create the Vatican state and the latter to keep control of Catholic schools. He praised the Fascists as defenders of Catholic values against atheistic communism and he gave public support to Franco when his right-wing rebellion overthrew the democratically elected, left-wing Government of Spain and slaughtered thousands with Hitler's assistance. So I don't know what your notion of Pius XI (Ratti) as some kind of anti-fascist liberal is based on.

My original point was that France during the 1930s was deeply divided. The right-wing, Catholic part of France tended to agree with Fascist and Nazi ideology. Many of them even welcomed the Nazi invasion in 1939. You can read about the right-wing parties and the collaborators in "Bad Faith" by Carmen Callil. The anti-semitic ones, like Louis Darquier, were enthusiastic about the Nazi programme to exterminate the Jews.

The case of Paul Touvier, the leading collaborator who evaded the law for years by taking refuge in Catholic monasteries after the war, illustrates the complicity of the whole Catholic church and its pro-fascist/nazi tendencies. "The Statement", directed by Norman Jewison, is based on the Touvier case.

So my comment on the film still stands - it is a propaganda piece which tries to hide the real extent of the complicity and collaboration which went on in France, due partly to the right-wing ideology of the Catholic church.

[–] 007135 15 years ago

Oh,come on,not every Catholic blindly obeys the "Pope",get your head out of the sand.

Why don't you talk about Fascist oppression against Catholics?

[–] Jazzist-H-Crisp 15 years ago

I have already cited several examples to show how the Catholic church collaborated with the Fascists/Nazis and benefitted from that collaboration. Eg 1929 Mussolini created the independent state of the Vatican, thereby ensuring church support for his Fascist regime; 1933 Concordat with Hitler; 1936 supports Franco's Fascist rebellion, overthrowing the democratically elected Government of Spain. I mentioned the Touvier case because it reveals widespread sympathy for Fascists in Catholic monasteries after the war.

You should note also that Ireland, a staunchly Catholic country in the 1930s, refused to join the Allied cause in World War 2 and stayed neutral throughout. Its leader, De Valera, was a devout Catholic and took his lead from the church.

So there are a few examples of Catholic complicity with the Fascist/Nazi cause.

You say that I have ignored Fascist oppression of Catholics. But you have not cited any examples. Have you got any?

[–] heinekee 15 years ago

De Valera kept Ireland nuetral because it was in the best interest of his country; it had nothing to do with the Pope or his supposed views. Downed allied pilots in Ireland he let travel to the North to rejoin the Allies. Downed German pilots were kept in POW camps for the remainder of the war. Further more, De Valera's government did nothing to stop 10s of thousands of Irish from joining up with British units (in some cases Canadian and American units) to fight the Axis.

[–] Jazzist-H-Crisp 15 years ago

The bottom line is that Ireland did not join the Allies in the fight against Nazism. The token gestures that you mention do not add up to very much. The question is - why did Ireland stay out of a war which was being fought to uphold democratic principles against ruthless militarism? You offer no explanation, except to say that some token gestures of support were offered. That explains nothing.

De Valera was a pious Catholic. The Pope had been cosying up to the Fascists and the Nazis throughout the 1930s. There would be no Vatican today if it had not been for the close relations between the Pope and Mussolini, the Fascist dictator of Italy. The Pope praised the Fascists and the Nazis for their stand against atheistic communism. That was the lead that De Valera followed. He was leading a Catholic country himself, so of course he followed the guidance of the Pope. He could not join the Axis powers, because the country would have been invaded by Britain immediately, so he did the next best thing - he stayed neutral.

Irish neutrality suited the Nazis well. The German U-boats were able to attack the convoys which supplied Britain with all its essentials and then hide in neutral waters off Ireland. Britain asked Ireland for the use of the Treaty ports, in order to deal with the U-boats, but Ireland refused.

The IRA went further than De Valera. They actively supported the Nazis and launched a bombing campaign in Britain - terrorist bombs, intended to strike fear into the British people. Sean Russell, the leader of the IRA, went to Berlin to try to persuade Hitler to attack Britain through Ireland. Several German agents went to Ireland to reconnoitre such an attack. Russell died on a Nazi submarine on his way back to Ireland.

So, in summary, Irish neutrality was based on two factors: anti-British prejudice which led some Irish people to hope for an Axis victory and Catholic piety, following the lead that the Pope had given throughout the 1930s.

[–] 007135 15 years ago

What about the many Polish Roman Catholics that were oppressed?

[–] Jazzist-H-Crisp 15 years ago

"What about the many Polish Roman Catholics that were oppressed?"

You have got the issue back to front. My point is that Pope Pius XI and the Catholic church which he led were complicit in the Nazi and Fascist regimes. The Catholic church was happy to see Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and, to a lesser extent, Petain, make war against "atheistic communism" (ie. anyone who upheld the rights of the individual, especially trade unionists). For example, the Catholic church supported Mussolini and in return he created the Vatican state as an independent entity within Italy.

Hitler struck a deal with the Catholic church in 1933, the Concordat. It was useful to him to have the Catholic church on his side because there are many Catholics in parts of Germany and in Austria. But religion did not matter to Hitler when it came to his attacks on neighbouring countries. He wanted to dominate them and to take over their industries and resources. Religion did not matter, except as regards the Jews, of course, whom he tried to exterminate.

In Poland, the mass extermination of the Jews began soon after the country was invaded. Other Poles, Catholic, Protestant and atheist, were treated as a defeated people who had no rights. That was the Nazi way.

Nothing in the above exonerates the Catholic church for its complicity in the Nazi/Fascist tyranny in Europe in the 1930s.

[–] 007135 15 years ago

Also,you are probably forgeting that there is more than 1 Catholic Church.

[–] galileo_ii 15 years ago

In 1939, when world war II broke out, The Irish Republic was less than 20 years old. It had won a very bloody revolution in the 20s against the Brits. The conduct of British in that conflict in many ways was worse the Kaiser's armies in wwI. The treaty that ended that revolution caused a civil war in Ireland, and origionally contained terms like "And that the Britian should retain control of the Irish seas, and strategic harbours in Ireland, and "other facilities" needed by her" De Valera didn't join the allies because
1) in Europe, the British WERE the allies and the London Goverment was a known enemy of the Irish Republic (Churchill was no friend of native peoples, some of his quotes on India actully make some Nazi ministers look good).
2) Probably because De Valera figured that a German London goverment would more reasonable to deal with than an English one, which is probably true.

[–] galileo_ii 15 years ago

Oh and BTW, during the period when Pius the XII was 'appeasing' the Germans, Hitler was a very popular leader in most of Europe. Before he started invading other counties, Hitler was viewed as strong leader who had taken a country disentgrating under the great depression, and through strong leadership, turned it around in a remarkedly short time. In this period, many people in Europe were saying "Why can't we have somebody like Hitler?" Even Winston Churchill. Quote:

One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations.
"Hitler and His Choice", The Strand Magazine (November 1935)

And as to Pius conspiring with Mussolini and Hitler agains the communists, again qouting Churchill:

If I had been an Italian, I am sure I would have been entirely with you from the beginning to the end of your victorious struggle against the bestial appetites and passions of Leninism.
To Benito Mussolini in a press conference in Rome (January 1927), as quoted in Churchill : A Life (1992) by Martin Gilbert

The fact is that all of this ended well before the war. Pius XII's reputation among modern critics comes entirely from the fact that during the war he didn't speak out publicly against Hitler. Of course, if had, the Germans (who occupied Rome after the Italians surrendered in '43) would had bombed the vatican and everyone in it out of existance, a fact that modern critics bizarrely wave away like it is some kind of non-issue. The Truth of the matter is that documentation has emerged recently that Pius did much behind the scenes to save many Jews. Also, many of the most famous resisters of the Nazis including Maximillian Kolbe (a man sainted by the catholic church for volenteering to take the place of several Jews in a concentration camp who were about to be executed becuase one person had escaped) and Von Staffenberg (the guy who put the suitcase bomb under the table) were Catholics who resisted precisly because they were catholics and were urgued on by there faith.

[–] RParmly-3 15 years ago

"You should note also that Ireland, a staunchly Catholic country in the 1930s, refused to join the Allied cause in World War 2 and stayed neutral throughout."

And if the British had been ****ing your country for hundreds of years as badly as they were doing to Ireland, somehow I don't think you'd be leaping to their defense either. As far as the Irish were concerned, it was six to five and pick 'em between the British and the Germans, and given their history, I can't say I blame them.

The OP makes good points, but it's painfully obvious that he has an ax to grind with Catholicism. A word of advice; Catholics are people like everyone else, and they act and react to the outside world like everyone else. Instead of taking every action committed by every Catholic and tracing it back to the fact that they're Catholic, like you tried to do with the Irish, try putting yourself in their shoes and tracing it back to the fact that they're homo friggin sapiens.

Thanks, Galileo. I don't exonerate the Church for all it did, but you make most of the good points about Vatican policy towards Mussolini and Hitler. (The Vatican's attitude towards Franco is something else and, IMO, much more inexcusable).

Keep flying, son. And watch that potty mouth!

[–] davidmrenton 9 years ago

Really , what a pathetic excuse. Typical Republican nonsense.

[–] PoppyTransfusion 9 years ago

I agree with the OP. I was uncomfortable with the presentation of French resistance in the film and found this a sloppy sentimental piece about Paris yet I thought of Coventry, Warsaw and even Dresden. Left a bad taste in my mouth.

As to the Catholic church and their position in WW2: the description 'the perfidious Jews' persisted in Catholic services throughout WW2 and the pope of the time is seen by some in the church as a Nazi collaborator because he did not protest their actions enough. This is not a matter of fact but uneasy opinion amongst Catholics in the UK.

A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.

[–] chrissso 8 years ago

Propaganda by who? Trying to push what agenda? You do realize that this is not a documentary and thus is not obligated to address those who were not in the Resistance. And the scene of the helping priest ... are you saying that no priest every supported the resistance?

You seem to have an axe to grind against the Catholic Church and French people.

[–] silvercometred1 8 years ago

The only good thing in this film is Gert Frobe as the German general in charge of Paris. Frobe's portrayal is most convincing and he creates an interesting, troubled and believable character for the general.

Well he had years to study for the part. Herr Frobe was a Nazi and a German Army officer in real life. Gert was considered to be a "Good Nazi" since it was revealed, after the war, that he was using his Nazi membership as a cover to hide Jews from the Gestapo in order to smuggle them out of Germany. Gert was never a general but he worn the uniform so well. He was also very believable as a troubled German officer, because that's what he was during the real war. What satisfaction, it must have been, for Gert to deliver the line "Hitler is insane!"

[–] [email protected] (1640) 5 years ago

That's not true. The pope was collaborating with the allies and the German Generals trying to assassinate Hitler. Hitler on his part was trying to have the pope assassinated. It seems your entire post is propaganda based on lies nothing more.

In fact the pope saved more Jews that's anyone else:

https://youtu.be/d9c0Zb9pJoY