MovieChat Forums > The Great Escape (1963) Discussion > Tunnel length miscalculation

Tunnel length miscalculation

posted 11 years ago by brentnevers
30 replies | jump to latest

I need to preface this post with a few statements. I am no expert on the actual historic events of the the real great escape. I have just always loved this movie since I was a kid. I am now 53 years old and I still pop this disc into the player about one a year.

Furthermore, I have the highest regards for those who post comments here in TGE threads. Some very smart, and well informed people have brought out a wealth of facts and information that is much appreciated. As IMDb threads go, this is one of the best, thanks to the brilliant posters who have contributed so much of their historical knowledge with the rest of us.

Finally, I must tell you that I have scoured almost all of the threads yet I fail to find any discussion of what bothers me the most about TGE.

With all the attention to detail that went into the planning and execution of the escape plan. it boggles my mind that the did such a poor job in figuring out the distance of the tunnel(s) to reach into the woods. They sent Hitls out to gather information, and allow him to be caught...only to neglect the most vital information needed......distance to the woods!

Also, would the tunnelers not begin to encounter roots from the trees above...even 30 feet down?

I am startled that the movie does not address this, and I am startled that there is no mention of this oversight by the escapees...considering that this miscalculation is what foiled the escape attempt in the first place.

My point is, if the exit hole of the tunnel would have reached the woods....they could have gotten EVERYONE out of the camp, and probably half would have never been recaptured.

Am I wrong?

Curious to know what others think.....

[–] Hotrodder 11 years ago

It was discussed a while back but I think the thread must have been deleted. But think how hard it was to estimate the distance from the fence to the woods then do it underground. They couldn't exactly run a tape measure across the ground after all, nor make it obvious that they were trying to work out the distance. Not easy just to do it by eye, but that was the only way. I would agree with you regarding the roots- if they'd actually come out under the trees the chances are they wouldn't have been able to dig upwards without hitting roots or tree trunks. They cdould have cut their way through to some extent but that would have been near impossible IMO. I personally think they wanted to be near the treeline but not under the trees myself.

"Oh dear. How sad. Never mind!"

[–] Speranza9 11 years ago

I think the intention was always to come up behind the tree line, although I, too, have wondered how they planned to contend with tree roots, not to mention tree trunks.

I've previously written about my visit to the site of Stalag Luft III, near modern-day Zagan in Poland. Truly one of the most memorable experiences of the my life. One of the things which struck me is that the trees are very narrow and there was a lot of space in between them. It would be well nigh impossible to hide amongst them during day time, because the tree trunk would hide (at best) almost half your body. Thanks to the canopy well above you - and the darkness it produces - I assume hiding amongst the trees at night would be effective.

The other thing which which struck me when visiting the site is that the tree line is not straight. It would look straight if viewed from 90 degrees, whilst inside the camp. However, when standing amongst the trees, it's more like a wave.

If the monument marking the exit of Harry is accurate - which I doubt - then the escapers were unlucky because they came up in a concave section of the tree line. That is, there were trees to the left and right which were closer to the fence line but the trees directly ahead were further away. I hope that makes sense.

Anyway, perhaps they should have dug another 10 metres to be absolutely sure. If the tunnel survived discover until the next moonless night in April, all the better weather-wise.

I know it's easy to make these suggestions with hindsight.

There was not enough time during a single night for the entire camp to escape. However, had they come up amongst the trees, they would have had a fair shot at getting the 220 out, as they planned.

Having said that, if the tunnel was opened at 10pm and was `in operation' until 5am, that still means getting over 30 out per hour or one every two minutes. It was pretty ambitious!

[–] mikekrit62 11 years ago

The method they most likely used to calculate the distance was triangulation, since it would have been impossible to take a direct measurement of the distance, even if Hilts was outside the wire. It would take too long to explain the technique here, you can look it up if you are interested.

It can be done with a high degree of accuracy using simple tools they could have made themselves. If you do it right, there is no need to directly measure. Ships use it all the time to determine distances from their location.

Cavendish screwed up, or didn't allow for enough of a cushion in the calculations to account for inherent sources of error.

Also, most tree roots tend to spread outward more than downward, so if they were say 10-15 feet down, they'd very likely not see very many roots until they started digging upward. Bear in mind also that the no-man's-land between the fence and the woods may very well have had trees on it that were clear cut back when the camp was built. So they might have been encountering random tree roots as they dug all the way out.

[–] Altho73 11 years ago

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I am startled that there is no mention of this oversight by the escapees...considering that this miscalculation is what foiled the escape attempt in the first place.
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There was no mention of it because it happened and there was nothing that could be done about it once it had happened. Considering the distance that they had to tunnel and remember the fact that the longer it took to complete the tunnel the greater the chance of it being discovered either by diligent German probing or purely by chance it was inevitable that there would be some margin of error.

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My point is, if the exit hole of the tunnel would have reached the woods....they could have gotten EVERYONE out of the camp
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You have got to be joking!!! There were around 2,500 RAF and around 7,500 USAAF POW's held in Stalag Luft 3 at the time. Do you seriously think that they could have got EVERYONE out of the camp on one night??

Only taking the 2,500 RAF into account they would have been very lucky to have got one tenth of those out in one night even if everything went exactly to plan without any snags.

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and probably half would have never been recaptured.
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If 250 had escaped even more stringent and extreme measures would have been taken to find them, borders closed, rail travel held up, hundreds of men arrested and detained etc

Also Hitler had a big enough tantrum when he was told that 76 had escaped and ordered 50 to be shot. What would his reaction have been if 250 had escaped, a massive reprisal with hundreds being shot.

[–] Hotrodder 11 years ago

Wiki's entry on the escape has a schematic showing the tunnel- 20 feet isn't exactly a huge error considering the tunnel was well over 300 feet long! Trying to do an absolutely accurate estimate would have been nigh on impossible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_Luft_III

Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

[–] etabacek 10 years ago

I agree with mikekrit above, Cavendish screwed up!
Having been a surveyor myself, estimating a distance and missing it by that much should have gotten him court-marshalled, or at least sent to the back of the escape line!
He should have at least gotten them to the edge of the tree line.

Keith Moon was the greatest 'Keith Moon Style' drummer ever!!

[–] Altho73 10 years ago

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estimating a distance and missing it by that much should have gotten him court-marshalled
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That is being ridiculous!!!!

[–] Jerrers (47) 3 years ago

Wasn’t it also Cavendish who fell over climbing out of the tunnel and dropped his case, thus making the noise that attracted the searchlights? He was probably still rattled that he had made the miscalculation. After he was captured and interrogated, he joined his fellow detainees. They didn’t condemn him, though there was the slightest hint that they couldn’t quite look him in the eye,

[–] norberte-1 10 years ago

Very possibly they may have felt that the Germans were getting close to discovering the tunnel. And fearing they didn't have enough time to be absolutely sure it was long enough.

[–] jejozi 10 years ago

For one thing, they would have encountered roots all along the way if they encountered roots at all. The camp wasn't built in an open spot in the forest, but in the middle of the forest that had been cleared of trees. And yes, they did miscalculate the distance. They had to eyeball the distance and they were off by about six feet over the 330 foot length of the tunnel. The character of Hilts is a fabrication, nobody ever escaped and allowed themselves to be captured.

This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.

[–] PKLarkins 10 years ago

nobody ever escaped and allowed themselves to be captured.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

[–] jejozi 10 years ago

Steve McQueen's character broke out, reconnoitered the area and allowed himself to be recaptured. That never actually happened.

This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.

[–] PKLarkins 10 years ago

One would think if he had done that they'd have been more accurate about the length of the tunnel.

It's not inconceivable that someone would really do that, even if it never happened then.

[–] Speranza9 10 years ago

Perhaps, but explain to me how any escaped prisoner could pace out the distance from the fence to the woods without being spotted by a guard...

[–] jejozi 10 years ago

He didn't get out to survey the tunnel length, but to find the locations of railway stations and towns.

You see, this is a movie based on an actual event, and the fact that the actual attempt came up short was kind of an important plot point to the movie. Had Hilts surveyed the distance they might have made it to the woods and more men probably would have escaped, but then it wouldn't have been been the story Brickhill recounted. Does that help or are you just troIIing?

This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.

[–] Speranza9 10 years ago

Not sure, Jejozi, whether that trolling accusation was directed at me, but if it was you have targeted the wrong man.

I think you'll see from my other posts on this board that I have a keen interest in the historical event, having been inspired by the book and the movie.

I've even been to Zagan in modern day Poland to survey the area myself.

The post of mine you responded to was intended to point out the flaw in the argument made by the pervious poster.

[–] mtmv 10 years ago

No Message

[–] PKLarkins 10 years ago

They couldn't have gotten EVERYONE out because not everyone had papers. Many of the prisoners (including Paul Brickhill, the author of the book) never intended to try to get out.

The miscalculation also didn't have that much to do with the way the prisoners were recaptured.

[–] Speranza9 10 years ago

Yes, the tunnel length mistake had a lot to do with recapture.

Had the tunnel come up behind the trees, the rate of escapees per hour would have dramatically increased resulting in more escapees getting far away, by train, before the tunnel was discovered. The farther away from Sagan, the more likely of avoiding close inspection of forged travel documents.

[–] RichN36 10 years ago

Just random thoughts on this Post. First off this is my favorite War Time Movie. But Cavendish made a big show of the survey of the Tunnel at one point in the movie using the String. So he was at fault anyway He was kind of a Moron throughout the movie.

But something else I read in this thread about the Roots. Your right they would be hitting Roots all through the digging of the Tunnel. How often do you when digging a Hole in your backyard for your garden or what ever other reason you are digging holes hit roots no matter where you dig?

Ok back to your serious topic.

There is more Gravy about you then the Grave. Scrooge.

[–] mtmv 10 years ago

The tree roots in that area are very shallow. There is a thin layer of topsoil then it's nothing but sand below. Watch this documentary about an excavation of the tunnel named Dick and you'll see what they were actually dealing with when they built the exit shaft:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdCJ3G3A6t8

I believe they did want to emerge 3 - 5 feet from the trees to avoid accidently knocking one over and that could account for the miscalculation.

Maggie

[–] amikelhenry 9 years ago

I know this post already has a # of replies and I preface mine with saying I am not a surveyor nor have ever had need to build a tunnel nor escape from an type of prison..but given that almost everybody agrees the miscalculation in length of the tunnel was a big error resulting in the failure of many people getting out and those who did were delayed in doing so..why did the tunnel makers..not check on the exit point the night before the escape?..I realize there may have been some risk..but it seems to me to be minimal..to devise a small observation hole to verify the exit..so, the finalization of plans could occur..i realize at that point how a delay may not have worked with the timeline of documents prepared but there would not have been the surprise and disappointment to deal with the night of the escape..they could have planned on what needed to be done as far as signals..they may have decided on fewer people getting out as it was going to take longer..they could have warned all those in line only to come when signaled so maybe that individual would not have chosen to exit when he did and was discovered..there were a number of things that could have been figured on in last minute prearations had they known beforehand and in addition, they would have loosened the exit area..which I read also contributed to the delay in exiting..Has anybody ever questioned this and what would be the downside besides a small risk of discovery..at least in my opinion, a small risk..

[–] Hotrodder 9 years ago

Any hole would have had to be disguised from the outside so one man would have had to leave then. Then the hole entrance would have to be sufficiently reinforced in case by some slight chance a German sentry walked onto it- if he fell in, boy, would he be surprised!

Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

[–] pawtrax67 9 years ago

It would be one thing if it was 10' short. But 20'? I'm not a surveyor. But I do know there is trigonometry and tri-anglation that navigators on planes or ships would know. You'd think with that many prisoners you'd get three guys running the numbers to make sure they jive.

Cavendish was a moron, plain and simple.

[–] Hotrodder 9 years ago

"Harry" was over 300 feet long so 20 feet isn't that big a discrepancy. The surveyor could hardly run a tape measure from the hut to the edge of the woods could he?
They had to take an educated guess from observation only- they were being observed at all times so they couldn't make it obvious that they were trying to do so and nor did they have any instruments optical or otherwise to aid them.
Try standing still and judging where 100 yards from you falls- I bet you'd be a long more inaccurate than 20 feet!

Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

[–] jmaher59 8 years ago

With all the questions here asking "how could they come up short?" the assumption seems to be that the tunnel was constructed perfectly perpendicular to the tree line. A little right-triangle trigonometry shows that a 300' tunnel would be 20' shy of the tree line if the constructors were 21 degrees off in their direction. Not exactly inconceivable. You try going 30 feet underground and then beginning your horizontal dig without making an error like that. I doubt your compass would work very well down there.

[–] Speranza9 8 years ago

That's an outstanding point jmaher59! I totally agree.

In addition to assuming the tunnel was perpendicular to the tree line, the argument also assumes that the tunnel was dead straight. I remember reading in Paul Brickhill's book that one of the diggers had a tendency to veer to the right and another had a tendency to veer to the left, so they ensured they were back to back in the roster.

Mind up, each of these factors reinforce a point I made several years ago in this thread; they should have planned to dig an extra 30 feet to accommodate these variables.

Once again, all of the above is written with the benefit of perfect hindsight and without tunnel vision (excuse the appalling pun!).

[–] Colorado_Kid (211) 2 years ago

One thing to remember is that a tunnel had already been discovered and they were rushing to get the one tunnel dug. I remember reading about an interview were a German guard at Stalag Luft 3 said that they suspected the prisoners were digging a tunnel but didn't exactly know where. I think the the prisoners realized the window of opportunity to escape was closing and they had to make a move.

If you remember what Bartlett said what goal was of the prison escape. It wasn't to get everyone out but to cause such a disturbance that the Germans would have to pull soldiers from the frontlines and to try and recapture them.

[–] BillySlater (4111) 2 years ago

"Germans would have to pull soldiers from the frontlines"
Was that the actual line of dialogue? I can´t remember if it was that exactly but if that´s what was said, it is a rather ridiculous line of dialogue. They were only a few hundred men, sure they would have been a disruption but not enough to "divert men from the frontlines". Pretty sure it would have been a Gestapo problem, indeed I believe Bartlett ended up being caught by the Gestapo.

[–] JimP (1) a year ago

Just watched it again, that must be at least 15 times.
I, too, have always been puzzled by the miscalculation of the exit point. The prisoners were air crew, including pilots and navigators, all of who were expected to be good mathematicians and geometry is basic stuff to them. They didn’t need tape measures as they could easily set any measuring scale on the surface that could be transferred underground.
I also think it was unlikely they relied on a single bloke to do the calculations without it being checked and double checked by other able scrutinisers, so laying the blame on one bloke is, I feel, quite unfair.
The sad fact is that we’ll never know the truth of it - but that doesn’t matter. I was certainly one of the best films of all time - in fact it is timeless.