MovieChat Forums > Psycho (1960) Discussion > Margo Epper (Mrs Bates in the window and...

Margo Epper (Mrs Bates in the window and with blackened face behind the shower curtain)

posted a month ago by swanstep (2640)
11 replies | jump to latest

is, as far as I know, still alive at 89. Her 6 years younger sister Jeannie (who doubled for Lynda Carter in the '70s, did a lot of stunting for Spielberg, and later mentored QT's stunt-gal-pal Zoe Bell) just died, however, and, with the increasing awareness and acknowledgement of stunt-performers, she has been given a rousing Obit. in the NYTimes. This hackalicious (don't ask) link:
https://tinyurl.com/39du4jwu
will probably work to view that if you give it enough time, say 20 secs, to load. The article doesn't mention Margo but she appears, albeit wrongly identified (bad NYTimes!), at the far right of the amazing, big, B&W family photo half way down the page. The Eppers were quite the stunting family (Spielberg makes a joke about this in the article).

[–] swanstep (2640) a month ago

Another tasty Obit in the NYTimes this weekend, Mary Wells Lawrence, one of the protoypes for
Mad Men's Peggy Olson. After recounting her glittering career in advertizing the obit says:

Ms. Wells Lawrence had homes in New York and the south of France, but spent most months in later years aboard her yacht in the Mediterranean.

'Atta girl!

[–] DoctorThirteen (10935) a month ago

I knew that Jeannie Epper had died (posted it on her and WW's pages) but I had no idea she was related to the woman behind the shower curtain!

[–] swanstep (2640) a month ago

@Doc13. I checked out your post on Jeannie Epper and enjoyed the link to Lynda Carter's appreciation of her. Thanks.

[–] roger1 (2543) 25 days ago

The article doesn't mention Margo but she appears, albeit wrongly identified (bad NYTimes!), at the far right of the amazing, big, B&W family photo half way down the page.

--

In the fall of 1968, Esquire magazine ran a two-page article with some "landmark scenes of violence in movies" -- as I recall, both Hollywood and foreign films were featured, with big "screen frame" moments from these movies and short captions beneath them.

One of the photos was from Bonnie and Clyde(released the year before in 1967 but I saw it in early 1968.) It was a screen frame of the close-up of the elderly bank clerks face being shot through the car window of the getaway car as he tried to hold on.

I had seen Bonnie and Clyde, that WAS the most disturbing moment in that movie for me (though I was too-young very tense in the scenes where the gang held both Sherriff Denver Pyle and later, Gene Wilder and Evans Evans(wife of director John Frankenheimer) hostage.

But in any event, I had SEEN Bonnie and Clyde.

I had not yet seen Psycho, so the TWO photos illstrating THAT movie were disturbing in a separate way:

The side by side photos (left to right) were from the shower scene, thus:

ONE: "Mrs. Bates," close-up in shadow with the bright bathroom bulb to her side(creating the dark face) and a view behind her of the rather ornate "wallpaper pattern of flowers" in the outer cabin beyond the bathroom. Mrs. Bates arm held her huge butcher knife aloft ready to stab again.

TWO: "Marion Crane." The screaming victim in some screen shot from the shower scene, Janet Leigh in all her historic glory.

I had still not been allowed to see Psycho when I looked at those photos. I had seen simliar shots in Hitchcock/Truffaut in the summer of 1968 but we did not buy the book so -- this was my first chance to "look and linger" over the shots of the monstrous Mrs. Bates and her poor screaming victim.

CONT

[–] roger1 (2543) 25 days ago

I daresay that that photo of Mrs. Bates -- with her rounded-oval face totally in shadow, the white hair bun of an old lady atop that face(one critic says the wig "gives Mrs. Bates head the shape of a mushroom" and that big, big knife raised high -- WAS terrifying to me. Even in a still capture, one could feel the monstrous RAGE of Mrs. Bates in her pose.

And now to the point: look at that great family photo of "the Epper family of stunt persons" and indeed, Margo Epper IS sitting the right corner of the photo and "look closer": You can SEE the face of Mrs. Bates! The "rounded oval"(here with a prominent chin) . Not to mention: the overall "strong and muscular body" of Margo Epper herself at that age -- MRS. BATES was abnormally strong too.

Hopefully someday someone somewhere will carve out that photo of Margo Epper's face and run it side by side with Mrs. Bates close-up in the shower!

---
CONT

[–] roger1 (2543) 25 days ago

Janet Leigh was famously a recognizable face in the shower murder scene. It took a few years for some folks to offer questions about that OTHER person of EQUAL prominence in the shower murder close-ups.

Francois Truffaut wrote an article in the 70's in which he said he called Hitchcock to ask "who played Mrs. Bates in the shower? Anthony Perkins? A dancer?(Truffaut evidently found grace in Mrs. Bates' knife blows.) Truffaut wrote a bit anti-climactically "Hitchocck said it was a body double, a woman with her face blackened."

Meanwhile YouTube used to have an incredible clip -- from the 70's -- of Alfred Hitchcock on the Mike Douglas afternoon talk show. Whereas Dick Cavett on his prestigious late night show had given Hitchocck a reverential "90 minutes all to himself" interview in 1972 to promote Frenzy --here Hitchcock was rather unceremoniously dumped on a couch with three other celebs: Jamss Brown, Steve Lawrence and Joan Rivers(I may be wrong on Rivers, I'm right on everybody else.)

The talk reached this point:

James Brown: Mr. Hitchcock, I have a question about your movie "Homicidal." (Hitch raises an eyebrow.)
Steve Lawrence: I think he means Psycho, Mr. Hitchcock.
James Brown: Who was that person playing the mother in the shower?
Hitchcock: (Pauses then talks to James Brown.) I COULD tell you, but then I would have to kill you.

Ha, ha, ha. Hitchcock had no interest in revealing Margo Epper on the Mike Douglas show.

CONT

[–] roger1 (2543) 25 days ago

In 1979, to a live audience of movie stars, directors and execs -- and as recorded for millions of CBS viewers for later broadcast, Anthony Perkins spoke to the crowd after the shower murder scene was shown and said:

"I've been taking the wrap for that scene for decades now, but that' not me on screen. I was in New York rehearsing a play. That was my stand-in, Bert(Burt?) -- and HE can take the blame from now on!"

A funny line -- and the great truth that Perkins WAS in NYC rehearsing Greenwillow the week the shower scene was shot -- but, Anthony Perkins HIMSELF didn't really knew who played Mrs. Bates. He ASSUMED it was his usual stand-in, Bert(Burt?)

This brings up a couple of points: (1) Movie stars OFTEN don't know the real details about the making of their movies, even classics. Perkins just assumed that Bert(Burt?) did the shower scene. Related: (2) Its the filming of perhaps the most Famous Scene in Motion Picture history -- and Tony Perkins had no interest in being there to watch history being made. He flew to NYC to rehearse a play instead. That's WHY Perkins assumed Bert(Burt?) did it. And of course, no one REALLY know how famous that shower scene was going to be.

Except one film editor on the team who worked on cutting the shower scene. Asked years later what he thought when he worked on that famous shocking scene , he remembered: "What I thought was...this is going to make more money than North by Northwest." Ha. He KNEW.

(Note in passing: other than Janet Leigh , the only Psycho actor who said he watched the shower scene being filmed was John Gavin, on a day off. Meanwhile, Anthony Perkins WAS in Hollywood to watch the Arbogast murder being filmed. He revealed that a "little person" named Mitzi played Mother attacking Arbogast at the top of the stairs -- but i'm guessing that big strapping Margo Epper finished him off at the bottom. These secrets died with Martin Balsam, Hitchocck, and Tony Perkins. )

CONT

[–] roger1 (2543) 25 days ago

Margo Epper is, as far as I know, still alive at 89.

---

Good. Another Psycho survivor. Only the long unseen Vera Miles remains from the entire small cast.

And evidently Janet Leigh's nude body double, Marli Renfro is still with us. Though Leigh's "regular stand in," Myra Davis was murdered years later.

All these people!

Its interesting to think that in this great historic shower scene, THREE people were physically in that showr: Janet Leigh(for facial close-ups): Marl Renfro(for nude shots of Marion) and Margo Epper(as Mrs. B slamming that knife.)

When the miracle of the VCR arrived in the 80s, I taped Psycho and joined others in looking at that showre murder "shot by shot." Marli Renfro's nudity is cleverly disguised. We see her nude body through the translucent shower curtain when Marion first enters the shower. She's the nude Marion in those super-scary shots of Mother "leaning in" to the shower and onto Marion to stab her(butMarli keeps her face away from the camera and her arm covering her nipples.) And, most notoriously, We get to see Marli Renfro's nipples out of focus as Marion reaches the curtain in death. Take that, censors!

Moreover: in those super scary shots of Mrs. Bates leaning into Marion to stab her(with Marion actually FIGHTING off the first attempts)..Janet Leigh wasn't even there, either. That's Margo Epper leaning into Marli Renfro! Janet Leigh may have been at home. So neither Tony Perkins(killer) nor Janet Leigh(killed) was on set for those shower moments. "The magic of Hollywood."

CONT

[–] roger1 (2543) 25 days ago

(Margo Epper's) years younger sister Jeannie (who doubled for Lynda Carter in the '70s, did a lot of stunting for Spielberg, and later mentored QT's stunt-gal-pal Zoe Bell) just died, however, and, with the increasing awareness and acknowledgement of stunt-performers, she has been given a rousing Obit. in the NYTimes.

--

I do recall that, once I had read of Margo Epper as "the shadowy Mrs. Bates" I indeed kept seeing that Epper name all over the stunt credits for decades of shows and movies. It was rather like the Westmore make-up family -a "family business."

The shot of Lynda Carter and Jeannie Epper side by side in their Wonder Woman outfits mimics shots of MALE stars next to THEIR stunt doubles -- Tom Cruise next to his, Arnold Schwarzenegger next to his, etc
And if in costume, well, as the Hollywood interviewer of Rick Dalton(Leo DiCaprio) and Cliff Booth(Brad Pitt) dressed the same at the beginning of "Once Upon a Time in Hollywood":

"If you think you're seeing double well...in some ways, you ARE."

It is rather fascinating to think about stunt doubles as literally wearing the same clothes and hair of the actors they are doubling. Looking at these folks side by side, you make judgements:

Well, the star is obviously better looking than the stunt double(but NOT always.)
Well, the stunt double ia obviously a better athlete than the star
Well, the stunt double probably can't ACT better than the star.
Well, fate made the star a star, and did not so shine upon the stunt double.

CONT

[–] roger1 (2543) 25 days ago

I did go to the movie theater last week to see "The Fall Guy" -- a movie based on a TV series about stunt men -- and I guess this topic was "in the air." Its not a very "serious" movie -- some good action , good looking stars, that's about it -- but I DID note that the movie rather mirrored OATIH -- there's a movie star(vain), there's his more heroic stunt double(Ryan Gosling OUR star) and our more heroic stunt double EVEN HAS A DOG that attacks people to help fight the bad guys -- just like in OATIH.

So I decided that "The Fall Guy" was rather spoofing OAITH...and showing us how the same basic premise can float a very minor movie as well as a very important one.

Anyway, RIP to Jeannie Epper, and let's keep Margo Epper alive and honored as "the other Mrs. Bates."

[–] DoctorThirteen (10935) 25 days ago

'@Doc13. I checked out your post on Jeannie Epper and enjoyed the link to Lynda Carter's appreciation of her. Thanks.'

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