MovieChat Forums > Psycho (1960) Discussion > Psycho's Antecedents [spoilers ahead]

Psycho's Antecedents [spoilers ahead]


Many movies directly or indirectly influenced Psycho. These include at least Sunset Boulevard (1950), Les Diaboliques (1955), Touch of Evil (1958), House on Haunted Hill (1959), Hitchcock's own previous psychotic killer thrillers, Shadow of Doubt (1943) and Strangers on a Train (1951), and the Ealing Studios anthology film Dead of Night (1945) (the ventriloquist dummy segment). This is a thread devoted to identifying the debts and teasing out the lines of influence. I'll be back in a few days to say something about Dead of Night (1945) connections.

[Note that posts on moviechat.org are currently limited to ~ 750 words/4000 characters. Longer essays will have to be spread over multiple posts. No quote indentations, italics, bolds etc. are also more obviously a pain in long posts.]

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1a. Dead of Night (1945)
Dead of Night (1945) is a brilliant horror anthology movie whose tone (macabre but humorous) and specifics anticipate both Alfred Hitchcock Presents and Rod Serling's The Twilight Zone. The film's final, monstrous, circular dream-within-a-dream twist is so brilliant conceived and worked that it's directly inspired several episodes of current Netflix 'it"-show, Black Mirror (especially the Jon Hamm-starring movie-length episode, 'White Christmas').

Setting aside the final twist segment involving the framing narrative that's undoubtedly DON's crowning achievement, the most distinguished and famous individual segment within DON is 'The Ventriloquist's Dummy' starring Michael Redgrave and directed by Alberto Cavalcanti. (This segment was restaged as a Twilight Zone ep. 'The Dummy' starring Cliff Robertson.) The connection of this tale with Psycho is made immediately afterwards in a Psychologist's debrief back in the framing story. Here's that dialogue:

Dr Van Sratten: One of the most complete examples of dual identity in the history of medical science.
Someone else: You mean that half the time Frere was Frere and the other half he was his dummy?
Dr Van Sratten: Exactly. And in the end, the dummy got the upper hand entirely.
Someone else: But how did the dummy get from one room to another? Under its own steam?
Dr Van Sratten: Without knowing what he was doing, Frere took it himself. Impelled by the dominating Hugo half of his mind. That is the scientific explanation. But, no doubt, you people would prefer a more colourful one. That Hugo had become endowed with an existence of his own.

DON's "the dummy got the upper hand entirely" is very like Psycho (1960)'s "in Norman's case, the dominant personality has won".

Note that the Ventriloquist story, which ends right before the Psychologist debrief, ends with the Ventriloquist (Redgrave) in a largely white cell speaking with his own mouth in the dummy's voice. This is essentially the same image with the same import as Norman in a lonely white cell with Mother's voice over the image of Norman's face. The paradox of the ventriloquized ventriloquist (the ventriloquist who's become his dummy's dummy) is essentially the same as the paradox of the matricidal son who's been overtaken and betrayed by his mother. It helps that, especially in 1945, Redgrave had the slightly stiff but boyish look that Perkins, Lawrence Harvey, Michael Rennie, and a bunch of others all had (acting perhaps as anti-Mitchums, anti-Lancasters, anti-Waynes) in the '50s and '60s. Or put the other way around (at ecarle's suggestion): had Psycho been made by Hitchcock in England in the '40s, Redgrave would have been his Norman Bate (except Psycho wouldn't have been made in England or anywhere else in the '40s).

Ecarle has usefully observed the following parallels earlier in the story:
1. The dummy tells ANOTHER ventriloquist that he wants to "ditch" Redgrave because he feels that Redgrave is a loser and the dummy wants to "trade up" to a better partner. The dummy relentlessly berates Redgrave as a loser type -- and that's Mother's yelling at Norman, isn't it?("I'm sorry, boy, but you do manage to look ludicrous when you try to give me orders" or "Or do I have to, because you haven't got the guts?") Of course, in both cases, the "live" person is having the fake person tear himself down. (The sadist and the masochist in the same body.)
2. Near the story's end, Redgrave tries to blame the dummy for almost killing the other ventriloquist, but the dummy's having none of it: "Not so fast, buster -- don't try to pin this on ME!"(or something funny like that.) This matches how at the end of Psycho, Mother is switching back the evil on Norman: "Its hard for a mother to condemn her own son, but he was always BAD. He tried to tell them that I killed those girls, and that man. He'll be locked away now.")
3. Hugo the Dummy insults the TWO ladies out with a guy who turns out to be more of a bruiser than he looks. He offers Redgrave the chance to apologize for his dummy's insults to the ladies, then punches Redgrave out when the latter is too drunk(or spellbound in madness) to respond. That the dummy proves a "nasty character" compared to the harmless, ineffectual Redgrave foreshadows Psycho's ferocious mother lurking behind essentially sweet Norman.

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1b. Dead of Night (1945)
There are two main pathways for DON to have influenced Psycho (i) though Hitch himself and (ii) through Robert Bloch,the author of the novella, Psycho on which the film was based.

The argument for the second pathway is straightforward. Here is how Bloch has Sam Loomis recount Dr Steiner's diagnosis of Norman to Lila:

"It isn't quite that simple. According to Steiner, Bates was now a multiple personality with at least three facets. There was _Norman_, the little boy who needed his mother and hated anything or anyone who came between him and her. Then, _Norma_, the mother, who could not be allowed to die. The third aspect might be called _Normal_--the adult Norman Bates, who had to go through the daily routine of living, and conceal the existence of the other personalities from the world. Of course, the three weren't entirely distinct entities, and each contained elements of the other. Dr. Steiner called it an 'unholy trinity.'
"But the adult Norman Bates kept control well enough so that he was discharged from the hospital. He went back to run the motel, and it was then that he felt the strain. What weighed on him most, as an adult personality, was the guilty knowledge of his mother's death. Preserving her room was not enough. He wanted to preserve her, too; preserve her physically, so that the illusion of her living presence would suppress the guilt feelings.
"So he brought her back, actually brought her back from the grave and gave her a new life. He put her to bed at night, dressed her and took her down into the house by day. Naturally, he concealed all this from outsiders and he did it well. Arbogast must have seen the figure placed in the upstairs window, but there's no proof that anyone else did, in all those years."
"Then the horror wasn't in the house," Lila murmured. "It was in his head."
"Steiner says the relationship was like that of a ventriloquist and his dummy. Mother and _little_ Norman must have carried on regular conversations. And the adult Norman Bates probably rationalized the situation. He was able to pretend sanity, but who knows how much he really knew?

And the scenes in the novella between Norman and Mother are more extensive than in the movie, and her first belittling him and then at the end distancing herself from him (1 and 2 above) is even more pronounced. Thus the parallels between Bloch's Psycho and DON's Ventriloquist Dummy tale feel extensive.

The argument for the first pathway, for Hitch having seen and been impressed by DON, is more circumstantial. First, DON is from Ealing Studios which was run by Michael Balcon who'd given Hitchcock his start as a director at Gainsborough Pictures in the '20s, and produced for Hitchcock in the '30s, esp. The 39 Steps. We know for sure that Hitch kept a pretty close eye on Ealing's output probably in part because of that personal connection with Balcon, but consider too that Hitchcock loved Ealing's greatest film Kind Hearts and Coronets (1949) enough to restage it in 1957 for The Salt Lake Times! This link contains a sub-link to the whole Salt Lake Times photo-article. That photo-article contains the famous shots of Hitch dressed as a woman (catnip to Cultural Studies programs everywhere!), since in the article he plays versions of all eight roles that Alec Guinness played in KH&C, i.e., including suffragette Aunt Agatha.
Second, one of the writers on DON was Angus MacPhail. Immediately before DON, Macphail wrote the screenplays for two wartime propaganda shorts that Hitch directed, Bon Voyage and Aventure malgache, and immediately after DON, MacPhail did some writing for Hitchcock on Spellbound. Later MacPhail would have a hand in the Man Who Knew Too Much (1956) screenplay, and he'd co-write The Wrong Man (1956) with Maxwell Anderson. It's hard to believe that DON wouldn't have come up on one of those occasions. (Note that MacPhail also seems to have originated the term for and concept of the MacGuffin.)
Third, the star of the Ventriloquist Dummy segment, Michael Redgrave, had had a major role for Hitch in The Lady Vanishes (he's the musicologist, Gilbert).
To summarize: really, how likely is it that Hitch, a guy who in the early '40s was already a publisher of mystery anthologies in the UK, wouldn't check out the acclaimed first mystery-horror anthology picture made not just by his friends but also by his own personal 'if I hadn't gone to Hollywood', 'road-not-taken' studio? Not very, I'd say. (I'd guess that some Library or Archive in LA probably has definitive proof of Hitch catching DON and other Ealing Studios films in 1945 and 1946, but until then our circumstantial will have to do. )

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1c. Dead Of Night (1945)
In my view, then, there's every reason to believe that Dead Of Night's DNA found its way into Psycho (1960)'s DNA probably via both Bloch and Hitch.

A final thought. Everyone knows that part of Psycho's importance is that it brought together Hitch's star-driven film side and his more disreputable, lucrative, teen-courting TV side. Keeping DON in mind as influence on Psycho deepens that basic perception by reminding us that Hitch's decision to come to Hollywood in 1939 had its price. It forced Hitchcock towards more elevated materials suitable for big stars like Ingrid Bergman, Gregory Peck, and Cary Grant, and away from his roots in exciting thrillers and mystery-publishing. Ealing Studios meanwhile would take up this banner. Hitchcock would get back to his UK roots in disreputable genres first with his TV shows, and then finally, triumphantly would merge all his horizons with Psycho.

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A final thought. Everyone knows that part of Psycho's importance is that it brought together Hitch's star-driven film side and his more disreputable, lucrative, teen-courting TV side. Keeping DON in mind as influence on Psycho deepens that basic perception by reminding us that Hitch's decision to come to Hollywood in 1939 had its price. It forced Hitchcock towards more elevated materials suitable for big stars like Ingrid Bergman, Gregory Peck, and Cary Grant, and away from his roots in exciting thrillers and mystery-publishing.

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Very gratifying, swanstep, to get to read a "long post" over several posts...and allowed. This is the kind of "in-depth" writing on film(without being article-length) that I very much value reading...and occasionally indulge in myself, if only because some ideas can use some airing out.

No one HAS to read a long post(or "multi-post post,") but for me, the reading experience of such can be very gratifying, educational and entertaining.

Thanks for this post, which may end up making the case for "Dead of Night" as the MOST influential film on Psycho the movie, and certainly on Psycho the novel by Bloch.

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Eaaling Studios meanwhile would take up this banner. Hitchcock would get back to his UK roots in disreputable genres first with his TV shows, and then finally, triumphantly would merge all his horizons with Psycho.

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I think from the time he first set foot in America, Hitchcock would occasionally get the freedom to "break free" from the constraints of studios, major stars, and "prestige."

You can see it, I think , in the Hitchocck films where the stars were NOT the biggest, and the casting was along the lines of "an ensemble rather than a star":

Foreign Correspondent
Shadow of a Doubt
Lifeboat
Strangers on a Train
The Trouble With Harry
Psycho(Hitchcock wrote to someone that he didn't cast "big stars" in this film.)
The Birds
Topaz(after the mega-stardom of Newman and Andrews in Torn Curtain demoralized Hitch in certain ways)
Frenzy(probably the LEAST starry film Hitchcock ever made; NOBODY was a "name")
Family Plot(Dern, Black, and Harris were names, but not very big ones.)

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With his "less starry" casts, Hitchcock could get more violent(Psycho, The Birds, Frenzy-- though I must admit Torn Curtain has a major violent scene); could get more experimental (Psycho, The Birds, Marnie, Topaz, Frenzy, Family Plot) and in general not have to tailor the story to the stars.

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OT: Manchester By the Sea (SPOILERS)

Well, swanstep, any ideas on how and where an OT post might be placed? I will place this one here. Perhaps it will be deleted by an administrator; perhaps I can/should move it to somewhere more appropriate. But here goes.

My watching's of 2016's Oscar films remains paltry. For all my protestations that "these are films that nobody sees," I AM seeing them, now, so I guess no movie is unseen once I see it!

I ordered Manchester by the Sea off of Pay-Per-View and watched it on TV, which, frankly, is how I've seen a few Oscar films these past years (I saw The Hurt Locker that way the day before it won Best Picture.) It doesn't really feel right -- begging the question of our time: what is a movie and what is TV? Should the Oscars and the Emmy's merge?

Meanwhle: on Manchester by the Sea: in a word: No.

I found the film almost parodistic in how it piled on the misery, giving us TWO "ultimate family loss" stories and presenting them in a manner where they sort of cancelled each other out. It was just too much pain, too much angst, too much anger.

There is a theme, there, to be sure: families are fragile units, and the loss of any family members "too soon"(children, breadwinners) can wreak devestation on everyone. I suppose only the deaths of elderly people who have no parents and no longer support children are the only deaths that CAN be handled without economic and social devastation, come to think of it. Committing to a marriage, a family, children, creates a unit that becomes harrowingly reliant upon its members -- lose the parents, lose the children...everything falls apart.

I'm very sympathetic to this harrowing theme, but I didn't think "Manchester by the Sea" played out very engagingly. Or maybe I just don't want this in my movies anymore. Perhaps the closest Hitchcock came to this kind of real bleakness was The Wrong Man, but that one pulled out at the end and was dynamite cinema getting there.

Manchester by the Sea also seemed to give us a set of characters who were often yelling and cussing at each other, understandably so in most cases, but not very engagingly(and yet, the story also posits some "good, nice" entirely sympathetic side characters who , ultimately, save the day in their own quiet way.)

Casey Affleck certainly has an arresting quality. He is much more slight and nervy of build and manner than his strapping brother Ben...but equally tough when necessary. I was reminded here of his work in another " Boston movie"(directed by Ben): Gone Baby Gone, in which Affleck played a private eye who seems ridiculuously too small for the fighting part of the work...but isn't.

I understand that it is down to Denzel and Casey for Best Actor. This could be the winner but...I dunno.

I am not a big fan of the score of this movie. The music is "sad" but it seemed pretentiously so, edging towards twee classical tones while undercutting its emotional story.

I feel that where I end up personally with Manchester by the Sea is this: its just not good enough for Oscar. 30 years ago, this film would not have been an Oscar finalist; it is simply one of a handful of 2016 movies that had much seriousness of purpose at all. So it got the nominations.

On the other hand, perhaps I simply shouldn't be participating in the watching of movies like this. I'm a North by Northwest man at heart; these simple realistic dramas are not what I go to the movies to see -- unless they are The Wrong Man.

PS. It does have a great scene: the meeting of Affleck and Michelle Williams near the end. Sometimes one scene is what Oscar wants saved for posterity.





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I feel that where I end up personally with Manchester by the Sea is this: its just not good enough for Oscar. 30 years ago, this film would not have been an Oscar finalist; it is simply one of a handful of 2016 movies that had much seriousness of purpose at all. So it got the nominations.[/quote]
I basically agree. Not a single memorable line or memorable shot made Manchester a non-starter for a high ranking from me. The whole movie then ends up turning on the performances... and they just didn't move me (not even the normally reliably great Michelle Williams). Frankly, seeing Manchester made me *really* appreciate unpretentious, sturdy things like Hell or High Water and Hidden Figures. I disagree just with your claim that only a handful of 2016 had much seriousness of purpose - rather it's just that most of the deeper movies whether it was Love and Friendship or Toni Erdmann or The Handmaiden or The Lobster or Julieta or The Witch or Sing Street never quite broke through to be consensus choices and get many (or even any) top nominations. Manchester was picked out early for some reason for lots of serious attention along with Moonlight and La La Land (and crowdpleasers like HOHW and HF and Lion then just made up the numbers) and all other relatively-little-seen gems then got set aside.
[quote]I am not a big fan of the score of this movie. The music is "sad" but it seemed pretentiously so, edging towards twee classical tones while undercutting its emotional story.

Yeah, the inclusion of the now-beaten-into-the-ground Albinoni Adagio over the top of the 'big reveal scene' especially felt like a film school error. Lonergan needed to get that 'Too On The Nose' note from someone and accept it.

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Thanks for this post, which may end up making the case for "Dead of Night" as the MOST influential film on Psycho the movie, and certainly on Psycho the novel by Bloch.

I'd settle for DON being accepted as a major background influence on Psycho, but thanks!

Vaguely relatedly, I've been continuing my Edgar Wright List-review project (albeit without posting the 'results' anywhere), and came across another good 'un: Raoul Walsh's The Roaring Twenties (1939). It's a fantastically pacy rise-and-fall of a gangster tale with pretensions toward telling the grand arc of history from WW1 to WW2 that the film opens by predicting. What's the connection? Well, I'd put huge money on TRT being what must have got Herman Mankiewicz's creative juices flowing on his script The American, which became Citizen Kane. TRT is full of scenes that feel like first drafts of scenes in CK. And although Welles said that his only film influence was John Ford there are plenty of visual flourishes in TRT that again feel like first drafts of Welles and Toland's work in CK. At one point Cagney even calls Bogart 'Rosebud'! TRT isn't nearly as clever or polished as CK of course but I guess I'm still tempted to say now that without TRT there's no CK. It would take a lot of research to make this case in detail but I feel sure that it could be done.

Note that TRT had the misfortune to come out in one of the greatest movie years ever. And TRT is backward-looking, literally back to the '20s and also back to the previous decade of Warners gangster flicks, which probably made TRT a little unfashionable in a revolutionary year. And then CK comes along two years later, building on and improving all its best ideas, making TRT look redundant and old-fashioned even among those who remembered it.

Anyhow, Scorsese has championed TRT in print - you get flashforwards of Taxi Driver and Godfather and Goodfellas scenes too when you watch it! - and it's a shame I didn't get around to watching it until now.

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