MovieChat Forums > South Pacific (1958) Discussion > If not MITZI, then who??

If not MITZI, then who??

posted 18 years ago by robm256
105 replies | jump to latest

Let's assume Doris Day, had been given the role as Nellie Forbush in "South Pacific" which most people of these message boards wanted anyhow. Now let's also assume Doris Day had to pull out of the movie for some reason or another.

Who WOULD have been everyones choice to play Nellie in the movie in those circumstances, at THAT time of filming, during the latter part of 1957. Which other actress's at that time could have filled Doris Days boots, so to speak.

Audrey Hepburn
Elizabeth Taylor
Shirley Jones
Deborah Kerr
Mary Martin
Mitzi Gaynor

The top two mentioned actress's defintely would not have what it takes for the role. They didn't look right for it and also neither had a proper singing voice. Shirley Jones was was ideal for both, in looks and singing ability but she had just come off "Oklahoma" and "Carousel", so she would have been definitely out of the running for a third R&H movie. Deborah Kerr starred in
the King and I but she was dubbed in that, and she did not look like a Nellie Forbush to me. Now Mary Martin was a fine "stage" actress and a very good singer, who if the movie had been made a few years earlier would have been ideal for the role. But by the end of 1957 she was too old for the part.

So which other actress at that moment in time could have filled the role of Nellie Forbush, instead of the "abscent" Doris Day. For me, the only solution could have been MITZI GAYNOR, who had talent in abundance. She looked very pretty, sang beautifully and was a more than average actress. She had gained a lot of experience in other movies including "Anything Goes" and "Les Girls", so Mitzi was now primed for a major movie role. That is my opinion of course, so let us hear YOUR choices for the role in 1957, in the abscence of Doris Day.

"Darling ELLIE was the apple of my eye - Now she's in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] milliedil 16 years ago

She'd have been sensational.

Shirley MacLaine, too, though she was more of a dancer than singer and the role calls for more of a singer than a dancer. (Mitzi was in the Shirley MacLaine vein.)

"Thank you, thank you--you're most kind. In fact you're every kind."

[–] patabarca 16 years ago

I have been watching the 2001 version of South Pacific, and felt that Glenn Close looked too old. She was 54! In reading through this board it was good to pick up the information of how young Nellie was supposed to be. Mitzi Gaynor was a superb Nellie, but Mary Martin would have been good too. She sure wasn't as old as Glenn Close playing Nellie!

[–] blondee661 16 years ago

I don't understand why a lot of people didn't like Mitzi's performance. I thought she was superb! I thought the role fit her like a glove. I mean her performance of Honey Bun I think explains it all! If she suffers from anything I think its from direction.

But if Mitzi could not have done it I would say Doris Day, Shirley Jones or Jane Powell. If Doris and Howard Keel starred together again that would have been cool. I always thought Keel was misused in the studio days. Shirley Jones already appeared in Oklahoma! and Carousel so I would rather had Powell and Day before here but Jones would have done a good job. Betty Hutton maybe could have done it as well. I think at the time though many people didn't like working with her. I also think Judy Holliday would have done a good job. She isn't the best singer in the world but she can carry a tune. (See Bells are Ringing if you don't believe me)

Some other possablities I thought of were Ginger Rogers, Betty Grable, and June Allyson but they were kinda old for the role of Nellie at the time. Rogers was 47, Grable was 42 and Allyson was 40.

However Mitzi still did a fine job!

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[–] Drewboy-2 16 years ago

What about Mary Tyler Moore - she could dance and sing, and was 20-21 years old in 1957. What was she doing at that time, pre Dick Van Dyke Show? The perkiness she showed in her TV series later makes me think of her as Nellie Forbush.

Hope Lange? She was filming "Peyton Place" around this time but she might've been a good choice as well.

[–] robm256 16 years ago

Mary Tyler Moore would not have been a big enough "name" to be considered at all for the role of Nellie.
"Darling ELLIE and FRANCES were the apples of my eye - Now they are in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] 16 years ago

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[–] schappe1 15 years ago

...that it was Josh Logan who was at the party and Doris refused to sing anything, (not just something from the play as a sort of audition), and Logan didn't like her attitude so he was against her doing it. It also says that ther somewhat sleazy husband was a consideration.

Day is my favortie female singer. People have always said that she sang as if she was singing only to you and i get that feeling as well. But I found her a rather stiff and formal actress and I much prefer Mitzi Gaynor's more natural, sensitive performance. The songs for Nellie don't require a powerful voice or a great range and she'd just fine doing them. I really don't have any desire to iagine anyone else in the role. it isn't necessary.

I will say that the idea that Shirley Jones was in Oklahoma and Carousel hardly disqualifies her for being South Pacific and I'm surprized she wasn't considered for the role. And, even though they wouldn't have been lover in this one, why not Gordon McRae as Lt. Cable? It seems strange nobody thought of that.

[–] shandy8 16 years ago

If I can't have Doris Day, I'll take an unknown. Mitzi Gaynor was not bad at all; Josh Logan was the problem. Debbie Reynolds would have been perfect, though.

"I love corn!"

[–] mattsmith89 15 years ago

I actaully thought Mitzi was a good casting choice-- she completely emobodies the "immature and inccurably green" Nellie Forbush. However, I think Shirley Jones would have made a sensaiontional Nellie, definately my first choice. Florence Henderson would have been another good Nellie.
Also, to through out a another choice, Julie Andrews. I know, I know-- she's British, and was then completely unknown-- but she's Julie "Freankin" Andrews! They could change hNellie from an American to a Enlish girl, sorta of like a vice-versa they did for Liza Minnelli when she was cast as Sally Bowles in the film version of Cabaret...though that would mean tampering w/ the lyrics...so it was for the best that Mitzi was cast.

[–] gaelicguy 15 years ago

I don't understand those of you here who are so over the moon about Mitzi Gaynor in this role. She's about as exciting to watch as dry wall, she gives a terrible performance (someone earlier in the thread talks about Susan Hayward chewing up the scenery had she been cast) -- does Gaynor not do the same thing? There's a reason she never acheived 'box office status' - she's a second string, if not third, performer.

The same goes for John Kerr as Cable - how dull is he?? -- uninspired, seems to have just phoned it in. He's terrible. Maybe I'm crazy, but I was thinking that Russ Tamblyn would have been much more suitbale in the role.

The only redeeming feature to this tedious, laborious film is Juanita Hall, who is perfect as Bloody Mary. I can't imagine her not ever being anything but absolutely wonderful, whatever the material.

For what it's worth, as I was watching Gaynor, I couldn't help but catch glimpses, in my mind's eye, of Doris Day, who would have been just fine in this thankless role (for in my view, that is what Nellie is). Despite the opportunity for her to showcase some beautiful R&H music and lyrics, she is, in my view, a thorougly unappealing character. I never believe that she feels inferior to De Becque. She is truly her mother's daughter. That final scene strains the credulity of even the most ardent of musical theater enthusiasts.

I've never really connected with this show, so I suppose I have a particular axe to grind here. However, after watching this film, from start to finish, for the first time in my life, it left me drained and utterly exhausted. Bleah!

A tree is best measured when it's down.

[–] robm256 15 years ago

Can I ask you a question.......do you like any musicals full stop ?? !! as you certainly have a severe dislike for the wonderful South Pacific, and an ever more dislike for...........Mitzi Gaynor in particular.

Mitzi was an up and coming support actress in the early/mid fifties, she was given her starring chance in SP, and for me and most of her worldwide fans, she took the chance with flying colours. I couldn't see SP with any other actress in the lead role of Nellie........Mitzi was/is that good in the movie !!

Mitzi didn't have the chance to continue her acting career in musicals after South Pacific, because as most people know, musicals were becoming a dying genre at that time........apart from the odd famous musical made after the end of the fifties, ie The Sound of Music and Mary Poppins, to name two of not very many muscials made at that point in time.

But hey-ho, so Mitzi Gaynor never had the chance to shine again in a major musical, but what the heck........she WAS a shining star in South Pacific, and we, her fans are just so pleased Mitzi was given that chance to star in the greatest musical ever made for cinema audiences.............SOUTH PACIFIC. (So put that in your pipe and smoke it.........as you obviously have no taste for the musical genre whatsoever) !!!!

"Darling ELLIE and FRANCES were the apples of my eye - Now they are in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] DryToast 15 years ago

What is about being a fan of a particular actor or actress that makes someone rude and delusional? Do you people trade your brains and manners for autographed glossies?

There is nothing in gaelicguy's post that indicates he dislikes musicals. In fact, he says the Rodgers & Hammerstein songs in South Pacific are beautiful, and he praises Juanita Hall, and where else do we see Ms. Hall except in musicals?

Believe it or not, it is possible to love musicals (as I do) and still to dislike the movie of South Pacific (as I do) or even to prefer other Rodgers & Hammerstein stage musicals over South Pacific (as I do).

Mitzi Gaynor was nobody's first choice for the movie Nellie. Rodgers favored Doris Day and Joshua Logan wanted Elizabeth Taylor. The fact that they ended up with Gaynor is a testament to the power of the Rodgers & Hammerstein franchise in the late 1950s: it was believed, quite rightly, that you could put a low-wattage name in something as famous as South Pacific and still make money.

Musical movies continued to be made well into the 1960s. There were 27 English-language musicals released in 1958. In 1968, there were -- 27! What virtually disappeared in the 1960s were the kind of B-level musicals that Mitzi Gaynor used to do in the 1950s, which is why she never made another movie after 1963. They were replaced with the low-budget, teen-oriented musicals like the Beach Party movies, Elvis Presley movies and other movies featuring pop stars. Gaynor wasn't a big enough box office attraction in the 1960s to put her in a big-budget musical (of which there were many), and she wasn't a good enough actress to migrate successfully into non-musicals like Shirley Jones and Doris Day did.

We understand that you love Mitzi Gaynor, but when you go ballistic when someone disagrees with you or when you try to rewrite history just to excuse Mitzi Gaynor's brief and unremarkable career in the movies, you make yourself sound like an idiot and a lunatic. Why not be satisfied that in the 1970s Ms. Gaynor became the queen of the tacky and overproduced TV spectacular?

"I don't seem able to strike the congenial note."

[–] theduchess86 8 years ago

Calm down Deary, its nearly 60 years ago, and Doris was not in anything tacky? are you kidding, who was it that did a Colonel Parker (Elvis's Manager) on her and sold her out, (her dodgy husband) and put her in one load of crap after the other, Doris migrated alright to all the forgetable rubbish that was churned out, Mitzi went on to have a very successful career, a very talented triple threat entertainer, Doris should have retired 1963.

[–] DryToast 15 years ago

The same goes for John Kerr as Cable - how dull is he?? -- uninspired, seems to have just phoned it in. He's terrible. Maybe I'm crazy, but I was thinking that Russ Tamblyn would have been much more suitbale in the role.

I am a great fan of Russ Tamblyn, but I think that in 1958 he was still considered a juvenile even though he was already 24. He could be seen that year playing tom thumb and continued playing boyish teen roles into the early 1960s. It seems that they were going after something part-boy, part-man, and even though John Kerr is not who comes to mind when I hear the word "manly," the 1950s did like that stolid, bland quality in their men. I would have wanted Anthony Perkins in the role, 26, capable of singing his own songs, boyish but already seen on screen as cowboy, baseball player and lover of Sophia Loren--though not in the same movie! (Perkins had succeeded Kerr on stage in Tea and Sympathy.)

I am among those who wonder why Debbie Reynolds didn't come to anyone's mind at the time. At 36, Doris Day was already too womanly to pass as the idiot-girl Nellie, whose inanities can only begin to be forgivable in a fresh and innocent girl (which is why 54-year-old Glenn Close was so ludicrous in the role in 2001).

To answer your question posed elsewhere, by the way, Juanita Hall's singing was indeed dubbed. Rodgers felt that, while Hall's voice was fine enough in its rough, exotic way to fill the Majestic Theater on Broadway, he wanted a sweeter (blander?) voice for the enormously amplified 6-track stereophonic Todd-AO soundtrack (and have you ever heard a more overproduced soundtrack for a classic movie musical?), so he hired Muriel Smith, Broadway's original Carmen Jones, who had played both Bloody Mary and Lady Thiang in London. (And I presume you recognize the singing voice of Captain Von Trapp emanating from Cable's throat?)

"I don't seem able to strike the congenial note."

[–] robm256 15 years ago

B movie.......There's No Business Like Showbusiness ? B movie.........Anything Goes ? B movie........Les Girls ? B movie........The Joker is Wild ? .........how anyone can call these movies "B movies" is beyond my comprehension, but when trying to prove a point most people just jump to the wrong conclusions!!

Apart from Elmer Gantry, please tell me what else the muti talented Shirley Jones starred in ?.........I'll tell you, guest appearances on many 60's and 70's TV shows............and yes of course........THE PARTRIDGE FAMILY!! .......very showbusiness like.

"Darling ELLIE and FRANCES were the apples of my eye - Now they are in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] DryToast 15 years ago

how anyone can call these movies "B movies" is beyond my comprehension

As an antidote to your hysteria, let me remind you what my point was. Gaynor did not continue to appear in movies into the 1960s not because there were less musicals being made (a phenomenon that didn't happen until the 1970s), but because they stopped making the kind of movie that required her talents. In the 1950s, Gaynor played the lead in a few forgettable glitzy show-biz musicals, played unremarkable supporting roles in a few more major movies and was inexplicably cast in the female lead in one gigantic property, and her presence in that role is argued about to this very day.

Gaynor was fourth-billed in Anything Goes, behind that beloved household name Zizi Jeanmaire. She was sixth-billed in There's No Business Like Show Business, behind Johnnie Ray, who had never made a movie before. The Joker Is Wild and Les Girls were vehicles for their male stars. And in South Pacific, the title was the star.

When Mitzi Gaynor was the biggest star in the movie, what do you get? Eagerly awaited epics such as Three Young Texans, The I Don't Care Girl, Bloodhounds of Broadway and Golden Girl.

So. Top-billed leads in major films? None. Second-billed leads in major films? Two or three circa 1957-58. This was not a career that was going to carry her into major films in the 1960s, and indeed it didn't.

Since you didn't contradict my assertion that musical movies in the 1960s didn't shrink in output but only shifted in content, I will take it you concede that point. Which leaves a flashy, talented dancer without much acting skill and no staying power at the box office in anything but someone else's starring vehicle looking at Hollywood in the 1960s and seeing the unemployment line. Las Vegas and television were built for people like her, and of course that's where she went, and quite successfully.

No one claimed that Shirley Jones starred in films ever. I merely said that she continued to have a career because unlike Gaynor she could act, and also unlike Gaynor movie audiences continued to like her and even remember who she was. I count eleven theatrical films with Jones in the 1960s (not to mention an Oscar), always as the female lead or in a major supporting role, compared to Gaynor's one. So I don't think there's any question that Jones continued to have a viable (though steadily diminishing) career in Hollywood, while Gaynor did not.

I don't think that I will continue with this conversation, as I feel like I am using a sledgehammer on a walnut.

"I don't seem able to strike the congenial note."

[–] robm256 15 years ago

DITO............you have your point of view, I and a few others have another point of view. You will always think you are right, while we will always think we are right, so end of hostilities.......for now.

"Darling ELLIE and FRANCES were the apples of my eye - Now they are in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] gaelicguy 15 years ago

for a spirited discourse!

Thanks, DT, as ever, for your supreme knowledge and insight and for attempting to disabuse robm256 that I dislike musicals and that all of my taste is in my mouth. Indeed, I love musicals and, admittedly, say in my post that South Pacific was never a particular favorite of mine, so perhaps I do have a bee in my bonnet where the film adaptation is concerned. But there are myriad things wrong with this film, in my view irrespective of my feelings for the material. To my credit, I think, I did give it a chance. I tried, really tried.

As well, DT, thanks for answering my question regarding potential dubbing of Juanita Hall -- yet another misguided choice, IMO. I must confess that I did not recognize 'Captain Von Trapp's' voice as Cable -- I was too stunned at what was unfolding on the screen to take notice. So, a hearty and heartfelt thank you for that, as well.

Robm256, if you are a fan of Mitzi Gaynor, I respect your feelings for her and, indeed, do let's agree to disagree. I can tell you, the first time I saw her in There's No Business Like Show Business, I thought she was lovely and did enjoy her in that very much.

As for South Pacific, funny how The Sound of Music, at three hours, flies by for me and this film, at less than three hours was interminable. Life is too precious, not to mention too short.

Thanks, gentlemen, for a lively discussion.

A tree is best measured when it's down.

[–] theduchess86 8 years ago

You say Mitzi never achieved box office status, South Pacific cost $5.m and took a whopping $37m at the box office, making it the 3rd biggest grossing film of the 1950s. and you must remember Rodgers and Hammerstein were making a big classy musical film, not a Warner Bros B. musical ie like "By the Light of the Silvery Moon, Doris was never offered a part in any Big musical of the 1950s, until Jumbo (1960) and that was a massive flop, all the important film musicals were being offered to Shirley Jones, Kathryn Grayson, Betty Hutton, Jane Powell, Ann Blythe,Deborah Kerr, Mitzi Gaynor, Leslie Caron, etc etc, Mitzi had just come off of making "Les Girls" with Gene Kelly and "The Joker is Wild with Frank Sinatra, and got very good notices in both films, Doris might have been considered but that was all, Doris went on to make those very successful comedies (very outdated now) that did fantastic business, and they made more money than any of her musical roles.Doris was a fantastic Band Singer made good.

[–] mplo (2305) 6 years ago

Russ Tamblyn as Lt. Cable? That would've been a good fit., since he had the look of a sort of a tough, cocky, and arrogant guy. Russ Tamblyn was a good actor. I'm surprised that he wasn't in more movies than he was in. He was excellent as Riff in the film "West Side Story", and as one of the brothers in "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers".

[–] thehair100 14 years ago

Here's the one everyone forgot, and she would have been perfect: Debbie Reynolds, and she would have been the right age. Brazzi is godawful as Emile. It should have been George Sanders, who would have been perfect, plus he could have beautifully sung it, too. Mitzi however, was not that bad. But she had zero chemistry with Boring Brazzi.

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[–] dmnemaine 14 years ago

Reynolds was from Texas (as was Mary Martin), and would have been perfectly cast as the naive, middle America nurse. Reynolds "saccharineness" would have worked for her in the role, hardly against her. Granted, the biggest problem with casting Reynolds would have been her vocal ability, but I think she had enough talent as a singer to get by, and her acting would have made up for the rest. Reynolds could easily have carried the central female role in a film as she proved brilliantly in the 1964 film "The Unsinkable Molly Brown". I don't think Fox would have considered her though because at this time Debbie Reynolds was still thought of as good enough for lightweight roles like Cathy Seldon or Tammy, but not someone who could handle real leading lady parts like Nellie Forbush. It really wasn't until "Molly Brown" that she proved herself. I'm not sure if she was still under contract to MGM at the time or not. By the late 1950s, nearly all of the big MGM stars' contracts with the studio had run out and the studio system was on its way out. All in all, I think Reynolds would have been a very good choice for the role, but in all probability wasn't even in the running.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] thehair100 14 years ago

Well Said. OHMYGOD, these idiots actually wanted to cast ELIZABETH TAYLOR as Nellie, who could not sing a note. What a disaster THAT would have been.

[–] dmnemaine 14 years ago

I think one of the big problems with Mitzi Gaynor was that she was miscast as a naive "cock-eyed optimist" from Arkansas. There was too much big city sophistication in Gaynor. In her screen roles, she always comes across as the witty, knowing city girl. Completely unsuitable for Nellie Forbush. There were other far more suitable actresses who would have been much more believable. Doris Day, Jane Powell, Shirley MacClaine, Debbie Reynolds, or Shirley Jones, just to name five. Any one of those five actresses would have sung and acted rings around Gaynor. It also seems incredible to me that they cast a performer who was primarily a dancer in a role that is unequivocally a singing/acting role. The only "dancing" required is the short bit in "A Wonderful Guy" and hammy "dancing" in "Honey Bun". Kind of silly to cast a dancer, no? Of the five I mentioned, I would say that Debbie Reynolds was probably the weakest choice for the role because of her limited vocal ability (still better than Gaynor though). I don't agree with the OP's opnion that Shirley Jones would not have been considered because of having appeared in two previous R&H films. I think what was probably more likely, and the same goes for Jane Powell, is that they were both lyric sopranos, and Nellie is seen by most as more of a "belting" singing role. That leaves us with either Shirley MacClaine or Doris Day -- either of which would have been ideal for the role.

But, as I stated in an earlier post, I think the directing is what does the film in. Everything is too languid and dreamy. Perhaps Logan was trying to capture some kind of "tropical paradise" atmosphere, who knows? I have seen stage versions of "South Pacific", and when done well, it is a vibrant, lively, fast-paced show.

[–] robm256 14 years ago

In the liner notes for the re-mastered CD of South Pacific it does say that 20th Century Fox had a definite spending budget on the production of the movie. Fox considered Doris Day by far the #1 choice for the role of Nellie Forbush in the film, but her "fee" demands meant she had to be ruled out, as they just could not afford her.

"Darling ELLIE and FRANCES were the apples of my eye - Now they are in heaven I want to CRY"

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[–] mikwalen 14 years ago

In the book THE SOUTH PACIFIC COMPANION, the author stated that Josh Logan wasn't thrileld with the idea of Doris to begin with. Then, he was present at a party at Roz Russell's house where Doris was also a guest. When asked to sing at the party, she refused, and the book states that this proved to Logan that he would not have gotten along with her.

Personally, I think she would have been terrific.

"Everytime I want to have a little fun-SHE turns out!" (Baron Bomburst)

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[–] RashomonLaStrada 13 years ago

I read the first page of this thread earlier today and then started thinking about young actresses in the late 50s. I've always been a proponent of Doris Day as Nellie Forbush, but the original poster asked us to assume Day was unavailable and come up with other alternatives for Mitzi Gaynor.

SHIRLEY MACLAINE would have been perfect! Nellie is cheery and all-American, youthful and optimistic. Shirley was enough of a star to carry a big movie and enough of an actress for all the subtleties (even tho Hollywood hadn't yet given her a chance to prove that).

"The good end happily, the bad unhappily, that is why it is called Fiction."

[–] solesister 13 years ago

Debbie Reynolds

[–] robm256 13 years ago

Can we have your reasons why, please........

Jeanne, Gloria, Toby, Mitzi, Eleanor, Frances, Deborah - are adorable - I love them all.

[–] DryToast 13 years ago

We can forgive Debbie for being naive and narrow-minded as Nellie is, because she is clearly sweet, young and good-hearted. Anyone with more mileage on them we would hold more accountable for their attitudes.

"There are only two perversions: hockey on grass and ballet on ice."

[–] solesister 13 years ago

Yeah, DryToast explains Debbie for me - she is young enough to be naive, but also youngenough that I could believe that she'd learn something and become a little more openminded by the end. Plus she's cute and perky enough to pull off the adorable knucklehead routine.

[–] lynx0139 11 years ago

I second that....strongly !