So Cringe worthy!!!! how did they know not to do this black face? Wasn't it common practice in the 50's to still do mock minstrel shows in black face. I've seen Joan crawford in a dance number in black face. How did the director predict that to give his movie any longevity he had to lose the black face.
shareActually, this film would still have longevity even if "Mandy" had been done in blackface. "Holiday Inn" has a blackface segment, and it is still a popular film. But that's a digression from what I really wanted to say. After WWII, social consciousness began to change in America. People were beginning to realize that all people are the same regardless of skin color. Of course, this was a very slow process, and prejudice still isn't completely gone. by 1953-54, when this film was in production, a black-face ministrel show would have been deemed by many people as an insult. Doing "Mandy" without the blackface was most likely seen as a compromise. Take it for what it was intended to be -- a very cautious step away from racism.
share"Mandy" as it is is fairly entertaining. If it were in blackface, I would be highly insulted as I am by most blackface numbers in films. I cringe at the stuff in BABES IN ARMS, HOLIDAY INN, any Jolson movie, etc. All that exaggerated eye-rolling and lip-smacking, trying to be "cullud." I know what the contexts were, but that doesn't mean I have to like it in 2010.
"We're fighting for this woman's honor, which is more than she ever did."
I agree with you about the blackface numbers. They are insulting, which I think by 1954 people were beginning to see. Doing "Mandy" without that was an attempt to still pay homage to the minstrel show without being insulting, and my point was that it should be seen as an advance over previous films which did use blackface and the exaggerated gestures. Just look at the "Abraham" number in "Holiday Inn". That always makes me uncomfortable, and even more so when Louise Beavers and the two children join right in on it with big pasty smiles. One has to wonder what Louise felt about doing that (I assume the children were too young to really take it in). Anyway, I was not by any means making allowances for blackface, but I think those in charge of the production of "White Christmas" should be given at least a little credit for trying to be less insulting.
shareI always get a kick out of responses like this...you feel guilty and therefore think you must emphasize with someone else and how they MUST have felt...
You know what the great thing about our freedom of speech is...you have the right to say you were 'insulted' by something just as much as I have a right to tell you to suck it up. Ignoring it as being apart of our history is just as bad as claiming it never happened, i.e. revisionist history. Such as those out there that claim the Holocaust never happened.
Bad things happen...thats the true...but you cannot ever shy away from them...or claim past instances of what you are insulted by have been done in ignorance because they didn't predict idiots such as yourself from wanting others to cater to you and you 'needs'.
Some people just get way too serious around here
I find nothing (whatsoever) about it to be "cringeworthy" -- far from it. It's a very entertaining number, IMO. Now, had it been done in blackface, I'd have issues with it (and wouldn't be able to claim it among my favorite Christmas movies).
What always amuses me is how the General, the housekeeper and his granddaughter (??) can merely sit there and tepidly applaud at the conclusion of the minstrel show sequence. That's a fairly rousing conclusion, and I'd have been tempted to be on my feet -- even were I merely viewing a dress rehearsal. But, in any case, I would be applauding enthusiastically.
^^ That always makes me laugh, too. Lukewarm little *clap-clap-clap* followed by a calm, "wonderful..."
Save a life...adopt a homeless pet.
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Hilarious! I'd never noticed that but you're absolutely right, their reaction is a little...subdued considering how INSANELY good the number is!
shareIsn't it time we got past having this same discussion over and over again? Really, it's been talked to death. It's an OLD movie. Things were different then. None of us like the racist elements, but the entertainment value is still there--it's a great number otherwise. The same can be said of many blackface numbers in countless other films. It's historically significant and interesting, too. Let's either look through this window into the past, or close our eyes and push FF, and move on.
shareWhy don't *you* move on if you don't like the discussion? This is a message board with many purposes--intelligent discourse about potentially uncomfortable matters is certainly one of them. If you're not interested, don't join in but don't try to stop other people from talking about it. That is not your place. ESPECIALLY with racial matters, more discussion, more attempts at understanding, at establishing a context is always preferable to less--especially since new people are always joining the conversation.
sharePersonally, I really don't like the blackface numbers when I see them, in spite of being an old movie buff and considering myself to be more able to appreciate the historical context than, say, most contemporary movie goers. The blackface numbers DO make me cringe, in spite of whatever their intent was, whether they were considered appropriate, funny, clever or whatever. From what I have seen, they are never intrinsic to the plot, they are never "needed" in any way to further the story, they are just inserted for their own entertainment value, such as it is.
What is it about Irving Berlin? because he has had more than his share of musical numbers based on his compositions done as blackface numbers in films. In the movie, This Is The Army (1943) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036430/, guess what is featured? the song, "Mandy", done in blackface! Another I saw recently, was Everybody Sing (938) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0030108/combined, which had a lovely young Judy Garland going way over the top in a shameful blackface number.
Say what you like about Holiday Inn, but that number, "Abraham" done in exaggerated blackface, was usually cut from any print shown on TV or on a lot of movie screens. Many people familiar with the movie have not seen that number. I would like to know when was the last time that someone "successfully" used blackface in a movie. I'm thinking that by 1954 it was already passé.
It's really an oddity and an extremely awkward one, this history of blackface minstrel shows from around 70 to 150 years ago. In the "Mr. Bones" part leading up to Mandy, the trio of Bob, Betty and Phil sing about Georgie Primrose and if you're at all interested, take a look at this article about George Primorse and his minstrel shows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Primrose. What I find particularly interesting is that Primrose had already phased out blackface from his minstrel shows by 1881! Some of the hardcore, "traditionalist" practitioners of minstrelsy didn't like it, but after that time blackface minstrel shows were not representational of the "state of the art" but were instead more used as a device by the minor minstrel troupes and in vaudeville. It's interesting that Hollywood would keep the phenomenon alive and that Irving Berlin's music would be used for these things more than anyone else's whom I can think of.
But, Mandy in White Christmas has everything BUT the blackface. The references to the old blackface minstrel shows may not be so obvious to all, but they're definitely there.
Thanks for the information about Primrose, jackboot. I had a sense that the song contained now-obscure references and last week, when I watched WHITE CHRISTMAS again, I was once more curious, but not enough to search for myself.
What I find really embarrassing about the "Abraham" number from HOLIDAY INN would be the part where the "colored" housemaid joins in, singing to her two kids about how Lincoln came to the rescue when the "darkies" were in trouble. Yes, she actually says/sings "darkies." I'm cognizant of cultural differences between Then and Now, and sometimes can find them more amusing than embarrassing (the "Who Dat Man?" number in A DAY AT THE RACES, for example), but I'm glad WHITE CHRISTMAS left out the blackface stuff or it really would be cringe-inducing today.
When watching WHITE CHRISTMAS I always have to wonder, during the Minstrel Show number, "Really? Would you REALLY like to see a minstrel show more than any other show you know? Easily pleased, aren't you?"
By the way, I'm probably one of the few Caucasians around who actually appeared in a minstrel show. Yes, in blackface, too. Circa 1960 I was in the Cub Scouts when the local Cub Scout Powers That Were decided that at the next "Pack" Meeting (all the local "dens" of Cub Scouts constituting a "pack"), we would put on a show, and that show would be a minstrel show. We even had a "Mr. Bones." The kid "minstrels" had to wear, in addition to blackface, lipstick to emphasize the lips. (I'm not making this up, unfortunately.) I hated the lipstick part the most. They gave us hot dogs to eat between acts, and I hated getting lipstrick on food I was supposed to eat. My mother told me that it was okay; ladies do it all the time. Yuck.
Forgot to add: whatever prejudices or blind-spots of the time he may have picked up from the general culture, I've heard that when Irving Berlin toured with the USO during World War II, travelling with an interracial troupe, he insisted there be no segregation of facilities. This at a time when the Army itself was segregated.
shareNo difference between blacking up and putting on a false beard. Harmless fun.
shareBesides the wonderful music and dancing..I couldnt keep from watching George Chakiris in one of his first dancing roles...did he ever think he would end up in a very very famous movie...WEst Side Story...and get an Oscar!!! I had such a crush on him when I was a young girl many meany years ago!!
shareYes nova, even the first time I saw George Chakiris in Rosemary's "Love You Didn't Do Right By Me" number, he just seemed so impossibly handsome, as "30 Rock"s Liz Lemon would say, "He looks like a cartoon pilot!" It was easy to see he was destined for bigger things.
I dont see anything wrong with the minstrel show number. Whats wrong with singing about it? The dont have the blackface. Actually , when AMC shows HOliday Inn, they cut the black face scene totally out, which I dont know if I agree with or not. Its something that was done, right or wrong.
share
Oh shut up about the black face.
That was then.
This is now.
GET OVER IT.
Your race card is maxed out.
Why don't *you* shut up? If you don't want to discuss it, fine, but why do you have to desperately try to stop other people discussing it? Enh, enh, stop talking about things that make me uncomfortable waahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Aren't you people always screaming about censorship? What's wrong with an honest discussion about blackface and its historical manifestations? Are you......afraid??????
By the way, I'm white. Whiter than white Christmas. Whiter than you, I guarantee--my ancestors have been in this country for hundreds of years. No race card. Nice try at attempting (badly) to derail the discussion though!
Anyway, bitch fights aside.
I see nothing wrong with this number. The number is taking a nostalgic stance on this type of entertainment which was not entirely a bunch of people in blackface rolling their eyes and eating watermelon. It's actually paying homage to an art form that we're still drawing from today.
Not to mention it being brilliantly staged, beautifully choreographed, and eye-poppingly costumed.
I mean, just because it employs the conventions of minstrel show doesn't mean it's racist or outdated. "Minstrel show" isn't a dirty word.
(And I'll also point out its pioneering the discovery of the obvious benefit that the male back-side gets from green suits.)
Thinking ruins everything.
These posters make me laugh. Fretting over movies that are 55 years plus showing black face when blacks make fun of whites in so many movies and TV shows of today. Yeah...we've come a long way. My eye.
They also have all black casts in many movies and stage shows where white actors are shut out and hardly a peep is heard.
What hypocrisy.
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"These posters make me laugh. Fretting over movies that are 55 years plus showing black face when blacks make fun of whites in so many movies and TV shows of today. Yeah...we've come a long way. My eye.
They also have all black casts in many movies and stage shows where white actors are shut out and hardly a peep is heard.
What hypocrisy."
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Yeah, mike. It's really tough to be white in this country. And blacks have always had it so good.
You're a bigoted idiot.
God, you're a simple minded anti-white racist. The whole idea in this country is to right wrongs, not to create new ones. Then you have to right those new wrongs and it becomes a vicious circle.
The whole ideal is justice, not vengeance, equality, not superiority.
Try stepping out of your angry mental prison, dude. I'm white, so your "anti-white racist" accusation is laughable.
"They also have all black casts in many movies and stage shows where white actors are shut out and hardly a peep is heard." Find out what you're talking about before embarrassing yourself with posts like this that flaunt your ignorance. Check Actors Equity, SAG and AFTRA on the percent of acting jobs for blacks vs. white. You'll find whites have the overwhelming advantage.
"The whole idea in this country is to right wrongs..." Glad you think so. So please tell us how you think the wrong of anti-black racism should be righted.
Melting snowflake alert!
shareThat's the only part of the movie that bothered me........
"Beauty is the means which we use to measure our own vanity."
I don't care. I'd STILL rather see a minstrel show than any other show I know . . . except for the live sex shows they used to have on Times Square. Those were classic.
shareMeh, People never realize the benefit blackface had on African-American culture. It was white entertainers emulating black performances at a time when blacks were prohibited to perform for white audiences. It didn't promote racism, in fact, it helped diminish it by introducing black culture to white audiences. As its popularity grew, eventually black performers were accepted. Essentially, without blackface, Jazz & Blues would not had become mainstream.Al Jolson, used his great popularity as a blackface in promoting many black artists including Louis Armstrong, Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington, Fats Waller who otherwise, would have been unknown today. Blackface, taken as good or bad, nonetheless bridged the gap between cultures that otherwise would have had no other opportunity.
share"Finian's Rainbow," which was made in the late 1960's, had a white character - played by Keenan Wynn - that got turned black based on a wish. Granted, that might not be traditional black face, as the character was actually made up to look like he was African-American. It was also part of the plot, so, not sure it has much baring, but, it shows that something similar to black face was still going on in Hollywood even into the late 1960's.
As to the "Mistrel Number" in this movie, the "Mandy" portion is a very catchy song, which I've always liked. Musically, it could have been separated completely from the banter that came before it. I like the song so much that I was disappointed that it didn't make it into the stage version of this musical, instead being replaced by "I Love A Piano."
Just my $0.02
JOE TYRIA
www.youtube.com/user/CreedWolfProductions
I just recently worked my way through the EXCELLENT British TV series that ran for four seasons, "Jeeves and Wooster" (1990) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098833/combined, starring Hugh Laurie and Stephen Fry and there is an episode (Season 2, Episode 5, "Kidnapped" or "The Mysterious Stranger") featuring members of Bertie's Drones Club who have started a minstrel group and they perform in blackface during the episode. I didn't catch the series when it was broadcast in the USA, but I have heard that this episode, featuring the blackface minstrel troupe, was not shown in the USA.
shareby ellysway (Mon Dec 13 2010 11:38:52)
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So Cringe worthy!!!! how did they know not to do this black face? Wasn't it common practice in the 50's to still do mock minstrel shows in black face. I've seen Joan crawford in a dance number in black face. How did the director predict that to give his movie any longevity he had to lose the black face.