MovieChat Forums > How Green Was My Valley (1942) Discussion > Why 'Green' won over 'Citizen Kane'??? ...

Why 'Green' won over 'Citizen Kane'??? A theory

posted 16 years ago by movie-viking
60 replies | jump to latest

My opinion is that in the late 1930's to early 1940's, some of the winning films like "How Green Was My Valley" won because (in part) they caught the mood, and the fears of Americans who could see the tentacles of war (World War II) coming closer and cloer to ENSNARE them and their family (notably - their young SONS).

Brilliant as "Citizen Kane" was, I suspect the tie breaker for some Oscar votors was - that "How Green Was My Valley" showed outside forces pulling apart a family. And despite some physical separations - the family seemed to stil be one.

Dad, Mom, the kids - especially the young males - even before Pearl Harbor - could strongly suspect that they, too, would soon be drawn in.

(Polls taken by the US Gov't - as seen in some Frank Capra Why We Fight series - show the US change in attitude...)

This is my "historical context" theory.

[–] jackboot 14 years ago

I'd cast my ballot with How Green Was My Valley. Citizen Kane doesn't come close to being a Best Picture.

Yes, Citizen Kane had some very interesting and wonderful camera work. It also had some pretty bad acting throughout.

[–] nephihaha 14 years ago

My gripe with the acting in Valley comes down to the atrocious accents in it! They are truly bad in almost all cases.

Just out of interest, which actors in Kane did you think did the worst acting?

[–] jackboot 14 years ago

I hate to say it, but I thought that Joseph Cotten, one of my favorite actors, went way over the top. Especially in the scenes set in the present, where he's in the hospital. He was downright cartoony.

Actually, there were many performances that were a bit too broad in Citizen Kane. Welles, himself, went a bit far in a few places.

Not knowing a good Welsh accent from a bad one, I have to say, with all the other elements in How Green Was My Valley coming together so nicely and effectively, that this was a wonderful and very powerful picture in my experience.

There aren't many films from any era that get accents right, especially not across an entire cast. The best seems to be when they are suggested enough to enhance one's portrayal of a character without laying it on too thick to call attention to the accent itself, which, when it happens, is a distraction and a complete failure of attempting an accent in the first place.

[–] gerald-flynn 14 years ago

It seems to me that many films, and performances, take on a new mystique years after their release, that was not there the first time. "Kane" is one such example. Another is Brando's performance in "Streetcar." Despite constant carping (on this site and in other places, especially critics analysis) about how could Bogie have won an Oscar over Brando, the fact remains that no critics circle awards were given to him either. Not that anyone really cares, but I don't think he was even nominated for the Golden Globe. HGWMV was a great movie and it resonated with the voters. I don't believe Hearst could have that much influence, but maybe I'm wrong about that. It's not like HGWMV was a worthless piece of crap like "American Beuaty" or "The English Patient", both of which won for reasons that totally escape me!

[–] IronBallsM 14 years ago

I'd cast my ballot with How Green Was My Valley. Citizen Kane doesn't come close to being a Best Picture.

Yes, Citizen Kane had some very interesting and wonderful camera work. It also had some pretty bad acting throughout.

Exactly how I feel.

[–] hachmom-1 14 years ago

Me too...hit the nail on the head....

It is not our abilities that show who we truly are...it is our choices

[–] nateba 14 years ago

I think it comes down to whether you believe the job of a movie is to dazzle or to move you. If the former, you're going to go with "Kane" (especially in 1941). If the latter, you're going to go with HGWMV.

cinefreak

[–] john-s-2 11 years ago

This film, in addition to be a Great one, was because Great Britain, including the Welsh Valley's, were being bombarded by Nazi Bombs and it was a Given the US was close to entering the War on Britain's side by 1941 (Pearl Harbor was just a very good Catalyst to unify the Country and bring us in).

[–] Trax-3 8 years ago

Yes, Citizen Kane had some very interesting and wonderful camera work. It also had some pretty bad acting throughout.

Yes, acting. There are some good performances in Kane but there is also a lot of wooden and hammy nonsense in there. Valley has some hammy minor characters but the leads are far stronger. Nothing comparable to Donald Crisp's performance in Kane.

[–] jameschurchill33 14 years ago

I haven't read all the posts, so maybe this has already been discussed...

But i think that Green was a film of its time and is somewhat conventional. I mean this in no way as an insult, I loved Green. Plus it was made by John Ford, a name members of the academy would be aware of as a great filmmaker. Citizen Kane was completely revolutionary and broke all kinds of new technical ground. I think that part of the reason Green won was because, of course, it wasn't a dangerous film. And art that is ahead of its time is rarely fully appreciated in its own time. Both great films, but one wanted to appeal to certain genre conventions while the other did not.

"Gee I wish we had one of them doomsday machines, Stainesy"

[–] IronBallsM 13 years ago

John Ford Rulz... that's why.

[–] druss44121-1 13 years ago

It's not a theory - it DID have to do with His Holiness Heir Hearst.

Also, film isn't REALLY a competition. A lot of years a bunch of great movies come out. Good! Doesn't matter which one wins best picture or not, chances are whoever you are, you agree with some wins and disagree with others.

I personally liken this film's win over Citizen Kane to Dances with Wolves over Goodfellas. The "loser" technically is a better film, but the winner wasn't awful but any stretch and was also a good film from the year. But yeah, if you like a film, good. And usually when people whine that such and such didn't win best picture, it's an extremely popular film, so it's not like the movie didn't get its due credit or didn't get people to see it.

And also, to the guy hating on Gladiator. Okay, let's say it isn't a great film (which it is, ahem... oh wait, notice how different people can have different opinions.) What should have won? Traffic, which is good but not very re-watchable. Or Crouching Tiger, which to me is extremely overrated and hard to get into, and Hero was a vastly superior Chinese martial arts epic.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Nemesis7293-1 12 years ago

"How Green Was My Valley" won because it's better, period. "Citizen Kane" is a technically brilliant, beautifully acted, ice cold, soulless exercise in style. The primary purpose of film is to entertain and in that regard "Citizen Kane" fails utterly.

[–] jackboot 12 years ago

I think that when singing the praises of Citizen Kane we should be giving a lot more kudos, credit and appreciation to the masterwork of Gregg Toland, directory of photography. Welles was gracious enough to give a lot of credit to Toland. Surely a lot of what is so memorable about Citizen Kane is the look - - the camera work and the lighting.

[–] oldmotem 11 years ago

The first time I watched Citizen Kane I thought it was one of the worst movies I ever saw. This film is more watchable. It's a story of humanity, etc.

I have since seen Citizen Kane many times. Not this one. Kane is great for students of cinema, and students of life. This one's still a great story, but I don't watch it over and over.

At the time, and even today, audiences watch a film for enjoyment, not for the finer points of film making. Citizen Kane would still lose to this film today.

Even more so. Everybody hates Welles now. Only the select majority did then.

And John Ford is the beloved. So that's mainly why this won. He had lots of experience making Welsh films. Like Stagecoach, etc. Maybe that's why this was made in Hollywood with actors of mixed nationality. Not Welsh.

At any rate, Citizen Kane is brilliant and remained so over the years. So it wins the "Aged and Timeless" award over this film. But I like movies and some of the history behind them. So am a flawed moviegoer.

[–] skywatcher888 11 years ago

Having just seen the movie (thank you, TCM!) I can only think that audiences of the 40's would have related to this film more than Kane. There is so much about it that relates to the anguish of loss and the flipping of a chapter of history that would have resonated more strongly in that era.

Citizen Kane is a great movie, though I think a bit its status is often a bit overinflated, but for different reasons than would have propelled it over this movie at that time.

Someday, perhaps, the Oscars will give out "posthumous" awards for those movies that lost out at the time, but deserve recognition nonetheless.

[–] joe-2797 11 years ago

Welles, when asked which directors he most admired said something like "I find myself drawn to the greats like John Ford, John Ford and John Ford."

[–] Torian06 11 years ago

I have just seen How Green... yesterday and I love it, the ensemble acting, the story and oh yes, yes, the photography and the camera shots of the locale.

Thanks for all the comments in this thread about this movie and the comparison to Citizen Kane, great to learn tidbits about these two films that surrounded it during the time it was up for an Oscar. Have been interested to watch the second one but for one reason or another can't get down to it. One of these days, and soon.

Truth inexorably,inscrutably seeks and reveals Itself into the Light.

[–] marbleann 11 years ago

I have seen them both and I love them both in different ways. I can easily see How Green was My Valley beating CK. It was not a big hit, the WRH factor and his pull with critics and some of the Academy voters. But unlike CK I think this movie has a little bit for everybody in it. When CK was a colder more driven movie. It is a movie either you hate or love, no in between.

Off subject another thing why do I get this movie mixed up with Valley of Decision.

[–] BoyWiththeGreenHair 11 years ago

In any other year, How Green Was My Valley would have been black-balled for its dealing in the forbidden subject of "unions," in which case a Best Picture Oscar would have been out of the question on purely political grounds.

But, William Randolph Hearst's personal vendetta against the film, in which even the name, Citizen Kane, was booed by stooge hecklers each time its name was announced as a nominee, generally made the "union" problem of How Green's premise look pretty trite by comparison, and I suspect people paid more attention to it as a result.

That, and for reasons already stated, HGWMV was perfect, in its own way. Leaving CK out of it, its easily the most perfect film made in that year. A direct comparison is futile; of course it loses, as most films from that period would, although its message of family, loyalty, love, and tradition resonates with people, including me, way more than a play on the "King Midas" parable, and during WWII, its no wonder that it received the response it did, just like Mrs. Miniver would the next year. Despite a non-American setting, the message was unmistakably "American" in nature.

[–] BoyWiththeGreenHair 11 years ago

What's ironic is that Welles was heavily influenced by How Green was My Valley for his next project, The Magnificent Ambersons, and he actually began shooting this film on the day it was released.

[–] 11 years ago

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[–] homerj208 11 years ago

I would clarify that audiences and the academy in 1941 felt it was a better movie and I am perfectly fine with that explanation.

Citizen Kane took on legendary status over the years and may win the retroactive Best Picture Oscar of 1941.

[–] hachmom-1 11 years ago

It's actually amazing when looks at the film of the time how mature in its subject matter Valley actually is. Moreover Valley is the more satisfying total film experience. Movies are supposed to make you feel, not just say "Oh Wow what a great tracking shot." And that's not to say I don't like a good tracking shot.

Welles himself said his only prep for Kane was to watch Stagecoach over and over, which is a reminder that more than a few of the techniques that Welles was credited for were picked up from non other than John Ford. Its true of Valley as well, just look at those really low ceilings that they are filming around in nearly every interior shot.

I will add that I have always felt that if anyone in the Kane crew was robbed at the Oscars, it was Gregg Toland. He did as much to make Kane the future legend as anyone. Welles knew it, that's why he shared his credit card with him.

The debate is an important one though. Over the years How Green Was My Valley has been neglected and ignored by many critics especially of the auteur generation, in part because they don't believe any other movie can compare with Kane, so they avoid taking a good look at the movie which beat it out at the Oscars.

It is not our abilities that show who we truly are...it is our choices