Illusion vs. Citizen Kane


I saw Grand Illusion about a month ago, and I was startled at it. It is a masterpiece. Then I saw Citizen Kane this week, and I felt that it fell short of Illusion's stature. After all these years, I can now see the difference between the two movies. I think Citizen Kane is a classic American movie, but Illusion is a timeless masterpiece. Citizen Kane does not have the length and depth of screenwriting that Illusion has. And Illusion has a varied cast of characters moving in and out, from locale to locale, demonstrating Renoir's genius at storytelling. Orson Welles' direction is diminished when you compare it to what Renoir accomplished in Illusion. And the acting in Illusion! The whole movie is a feast to enjoy, while Citizen Kane is more like . . . brunch.

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Apples are better than oranges, Beethoven is better than Mozart, and Citizen Kane is better than Grand Illusion. There, problem solved everybody!

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What a great discussion...I can't really put in my 2 cents on Illusion vs. Kane since I haven't seen Renoir's films for years and I would probably now look at it with different eyes.

But I would like to note that this discussion of Kane's merits has been going on for sometime, despite it's relatively secure status as the greatest film ever made. Pauline Kael, in her analysis of the movie (which, incidentally, shifted a great deal of credit from Welles to screenwriter Herman Mankiewicz) called it "a shallow masterpiece," and meant that as praise.

I think the key to understanding Kane lies in appreciating the way in which it does and does not fit into the classical Hollywood style. On the one hand, it seems to break all the rules; on the other hand, it still maintains a place within the mainstream of both American and narrative cinema. It breaks all the small rules in order to obey the larger ones more brilliantly, if that makes any sense. Yes, it looks and acts different than any Hollywood film up to that time but in terms of its storytelling, its overall feel, and its "depth" of characterization and theme (I put the word in quotes because I want to use it carefully) it is very much of a piece with prewar (and much of postwar) American cinema.

That said, it is arguably extremely conscious of its own Hollywood style, and indeed the breaking of all the little rules are almost like subtle winks at the audience; Welles saying to us, "I know I'm using a popular art to tell a story of great depth and complexity, and yes in the process perhaps making it a bit more shallow, but all the same there's more here than meets the eye." At least that's how I read it. I think it invites us to look beyond its surface, both the stylistically innovative surface that Welles provides, and the charmingly artificial surface that Hollywood invariably supplies (and to a certain extent, all of narrative cinema does). There's certainly much to discover if we do.

Grand Illusion enacts much less of a barrier between its message, story, and characters, and the audience, if I remember correctly. In other words Renoir is not using irony, subterfuge, and trickery as much as Welles, which is why his film is considered more humanist and more beloved by certain film enthusiastes. Personally, I am probably drawn more towards Welles' vision, simply because I am thoroughly enamored of the tricks he plays with form as well as content, and intrigued by his love for popular art as a vehicle for what fine art is supposed to deliver (remember, Shakespeare in his time was a popular artist as well).

OK, sorry for prattling on, but that's my excited take on the matter. Anyone agree/disagree? I know this board's been up for a while but the longer we can keep this argument going and the further we can extend its perameters, the better, in my opinion.

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I see that Kane worked better for you on a personal level -- but do you have any thoughts as to why? Just to take it out of the subjective realm, I mean. Personally, I prefer Kane to Illusion as well (at least at the moment - I haven't seen Illusion for years). But Renoir is growing on me as I just saw The River and I think I can see why some people would find his work more engaging than Welles'. To me it's just different, not necessarily better or worse, but as for preference it's just a matter of taste.

When you saw Kane is deeper & more profound, could you provide an example, perhaps a contrast between the two films which reveals the depth of Kane as compared to Illusion? And what about Kane made him more realistic than Marechal? Sorry if I sound anal, but you did ask "any questions" and sometimes we must be careful what we wish for, ha ha...

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"Grand Illusion definitely explores interesting themes, but the themes in Citizen Kane of childhood innocence, the loss of it, and the worthlessness of material gain are themes that I could closer identify with than those in Grand Illusion of class and war."

Yeah, me too.

"By the way, I thought that The River was mediocre."
Interesting -- was it the performances? That was the only aspect that bothered me at first and while I could see why Renoir saw value in leaving the actors' awkwardness in the open, it still made for some cringeworthy moments. But overall I found the movie very warm and enjoyable -- I loved the color, grew to love the characters (yes, the awkward acting did ultimately add to the charm), and LOVED the sequence when the main character tells her story and we see the dance. I think I'm growing to appreciate playful, childlike aspects of filmmaking more -- like in silent cinema, and some aspects of the French New Wave -- where severity is dropped and a sense of naive excitement about the medium's possiblities is allowed to come to the forefront. Maybe that's why I liked The River.

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I would say Citizen Kane is "said to be such a masterpiece" due more to form than content (though I for one disagree with you and find both the content and the character highly compelling).

"Rarely do you see a critic in France or Italy claim CK as a masterpiece" Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with this one. If I'm not mistaken, it was European critics who played a large role in reviving the film's reputation and landing it atop the Sight & Sound poll of '62 at #1, where it's remained every since. I've always been under the impression that Citizen Kane has a fairly international reputation as the "best."

Out of curiosity, what's your pick for "best film ever", that is, if someone held a gun to your head of course.

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The Story and how it's told is all that matters. Charles Foster Kane might have been a happier man if he had stayed in Colorado his natural intelligence and basic decency might've seen him through to a productive life even an exceptional one if he hadn't been corrupted by his wealth and power. The two aristocratic officers in Le Grande Illusione film would merely have tolerated the prescence of a noveau riche such as Kane as he went through their estates acquiring things to fill the void in his soul,etc. Gabin's working class background would have filled the corrupted Kane with ewnvy and hate,Rosenthal coming from the monied classes even if Jewish,he'd have flattered. The Two films are separate portrayals of the strength and stupidities of humans Renoir's has an epic backdrop of war Citizen Kane was an examination of a larger than life figure who didn't really want to be one. The films are equals not rivals in showing humanity without Ford's wallows in sentimentality or Kubrick's Ice Age gloom about people and the societies they hide from each other in.

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Interesting post, especially given the two disses at the end. Out of curiosity who are your favorite filmmakers and who of the "greats" do you dislike?

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I would have to say Citizen Kane is the technically superior film & Grand Illusion is more enjoyable to watch (especially through multiple viewings).

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The comparison of Grand Illusion to Proust, that the last poster just made is one of the problems with Illusion. Film is not just story telling, filming a novel, or capturing a theatre production. Film is visual, and a great film should be a mix of prose (story telling) and Poetry (Visually stimulating). Grand Illusion is a straight narrative, great prose to be sure, but lacking in poetry. But, Citizen Kane is narrative plus visual poetry. The inserted news footage (Mixed Media), Deep Focus shots, Shots through snow globes, etc, etc.

But, why bicker? They are both masterpieces.

Roman

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You think Grande Illusion lacks poetry? "Desto besser fuer Sie!"
"Citizen Kane" has always bored me stiff; I watched it a few dAYS ago, and it still bores me stiff. Flutes (or are they Piccolos?) anybody?

It's silly to say this; everyone but me thinks Citizen Kane is the greatest movie ever. When i was growing up in Chicago, we had our own "Citizen Kane." Colonel McCormick, who ran The Chicago Tribune. Between him ("Dewy defeats Truman!") and Daley (pere) ("vote early and often!")--it's a wonder we didn't have a Civil War. And Tell Mother I died for my country...

"Thus began our longest journey together." To Kill a Mockingbird

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I liked Illusion more than Citizen Kane but both overrated.

In my opinion the greatest 10 movies are
1-Taxi driver
2-The Godfather
3-The Searchers
4-2001: A Space Odyssey
5-The Rules of the Game
6-M
7-persona
8-12 Angry Men
9-8½
10-zerkalo

Honorable mention:
1-Blade Runner
2-Aguirre: The Wrath of God

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Not taking anything away from "Grand Illusion," which is an excellent film in many respects, but anyone who says that "Citizen Kane" is overrated, displays a profound lack of Cinema Knowledge. While "Grand Illusion" is excellent, it was never considered influential as was "Citizen Kane." By that, I mean that "Citizen Kane" introduced innovative cinematic techniques that have since been used by dozens of film makers that followed. For instance, the use of intensive backlighting to silhouette foreground figures has become a hallmark of Steven Spielberg, but was first introduced in "Citizen Kane." Low camera angles, deep focus photography and overhead camera movements were all introduced in "Citizen Kane," and have influenced the film industry ever since.

Now whether you like one movie over another is a matter of personal taste. But if you were wondering why "Citizen Kane" is so universally revered, it is because it was one of the most influential films ever made.

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Too often cinematography is confused with good film making. Cinematography is just one part of it.
We should not forget that film making is primarily about story telling and all other components serve that one main line.

Also, as far as "never considered influential as was citizen kane", that's only true in the US or N. America. In Europe what is considered influential or important in film history tends to be different from here. Battleship Potemkin is largely considered the best film ever, and Grand Illusion is right up there, among top ten. Often, Citizen Kane is too, but I think it is overrated. Whatever it has in cinematography, it more than looses in largely trivial story.

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Who the *beep* would put that piece of sh*t film 'Blade Runner' in their top 10 list?

Pretentious I say!

I said I never had much use for one....never said I didn't know how to use it.

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go *beep* your self Blade runner now #2 favorite film all times
what did you know about movies or art , You need spoon-feed films as Steven Spielberg movies or some *beep* like that

In my opinion the greatest 10 movies are
1-Taxi driver
2-The Godfather
3-The Searchers
4-2001: A Space Odyssey
5-The Rules of the Game
6-M
7-persona
8-12 Angry Men
9-8½
10-zerkalo

Honorable mention:
1-Blade Runner
2-Aguirre: The Wrath of God


I changed my mind The greatest 10
1-Taxi driver
2-Psycho
3-Blade runner
4-solaris 1972
5-2001: A Space Odyssey
6-persona
7-Ikiru
8-Apocalypse Now
9-Hiroshima mon amour
10-La Dolce Vita

My TOP 200 Movies -http://www.imdb.com/list/iFa7p7uwsr8/

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Citizen Kane, by far - Le Grande Illusion really didn´t leave that much of an impression upon this first viewing at least. Nothing quite that particularly extraordinary or outstanding. It IS, however, much better than that annoyance called La Regle Du Jeu. The best Renoir I´ve seen thus far remains La Chienne.



"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

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Citizen Kane was strong on cinematography, but highly overrated in my view.

Grand Illusion is among top five films ever made, if not the best ever.

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