At the end, was Thymiane a countess because she married Osdorff or Osdorff's uncle?
On the box for the copy I just watched, it says that Pabst had wanted the movie to end one way but was forced to end it another. Why was the ending changed and how was it supposed to end originally?
"let the heathen drown! let the heathen drown!"
i don't know...
though i remember on the box of the copy i watched it said the movie was a cash in after pandora's box.... maybe there was no big plan for this film...
the reason i'm giving this very lame reply is that i'm trying to find out a bit about an actrss called Annemarie Korff. The old man Osdorff was played by Arnold Korff.... Annnemarie was a bit part actor and dancer, maybe his daughter. But the person i'm most interested in isnt an actor at all, but danced in cabaret in the 20's with Annemarie... a long story..... <i>this</i> dancer, called Thea von Uyy, lived near me , and i had a look at her scrapbooks after she died: very vivid. Any-way : if you know any corners of the web where obscure information about this period lurks, or where you can get access to videos of long forgotten silent films, i'd be very happy to know.
i made a web page for Thea's story, featuring her in a louise brooks haircut, as it happens: http://www.geocities.com/grintches/thea.html
I got the impression that Thymiane married the (gay?) nephew to get the Countess name when she went straight after getting out of the reform school and whore house. After the nephew committed suicide when Thymiane gave away her inheritance (and his dreams), the uncle took care of her as a way to try to make it up to his son for disinheriting him. Since the uncle didn't want to tell the whole story to the Osdorff relatives when they ran into him and Thymiane at the beach , the uncle introduced her as his neice. She was legitimately Countess Orsdorff, anyway.
I thought the younger Count Osdorff nephew was gay since the prostitutes let him hang around the brothel and he never hit on or was in love with any of them. Even though they were always hugging and kissing him. He was sort of like a eunuch.
Remember this movie took place in the 1920s, well before the women's rights movement. Less than 10 years after women gained the right to vote in the United States. Society was very paternalistic. It was up to the senior male of the family to take care of any unmarried females until they got married. Pretty much only widows and divorcees had the priviledge to be independent free agents in respectable society. So it made sense that Thymiane would glom onto the older Count Osdorff when his son died.
I thought the younger Count Osdorff nephew was gay since the prostitutes let him hang around the brothel and he never hit on or was in love with any of them. Even though they were always hugging and kissing him. He was sort of like a eunuch.What? You have to assume the younger Count Osdorff is gay b/c he doesn't hit on the other women? I thought the whole reason he didn't hit on them is b/c he's in love with Thymiane . . .and I didn't think they got married at all. . .they were going to get married, but Thymiane gave the money away. . .so Osdorff's dreams of a financially stable life with Thymiane are ruined: hence, his suicide. If he's in love with Thymiane, then he wouldn't hit on the other girls. (B/c, after all, not all men are pigs and behave like Thymiane's father. . .right? Or am I too naive in thinking this?)
Angel2121, if we were talking real life or a modern movie, I'd agree with you about the younger Count Osdorff nephew, but we are talking silent movies. If you watch a lot of silent movies, you'll see that everything is exaggerated, especially things like movements and relationships between characters. The expression "hamming it up" really applies to silent movies. For instance, if a character wants to check the time, they don't just subtlely glance at their watch. They may extend their arm out to full length, make a big show that they are looking at a watch then have a big reaction shot about what the time means to them and the story.
In the movie, it wasn't enough to show the friendly relationship between Thymiane and the senior Count Osdorff uncle by having them stand next to each other. Instead they have Louise Brooks practically maul the guy to get the point across that they like each other. In my opinion, if the movie wanted to show that the younger Count Osdorff and Thymiane were more than buddies, they would have included scenes where he is pining over her picture or a possession when she wasn't in the room. Or have him looking at her with a "I'm in Love" face with his hands over his heart. Unless they showed that when I wasn't looking, that scene wasn't in the movie.
Part of the reason silent movies are so exaggerated is because the movies had to cater to immigrants who may not speak english and people who couldn't read the title cards. So there couldn't be any room for subtlety.
That is true for a lot of silent movies. . .but there can be exceptions to the rule. I thought that perhaps the reason they didn't show Osdorff doing all those things was that he was a little shy and bashful. . .and he was extremely excited when he drew Thymiane's name during that party. Besides, all the other men, whom the viewer was supposed to dislike, were the ones openly slobbering over women. . . if they showed Osdorff doing such things, he'd be just like those other men. And, since Osdorff is supposed to be a better man than they are, he doesn't do those things. . .I think there are subtleties within the film that show Osdorff loves Thymiane. Also, in the beginning, he does give her that necklace with a locket shaped like a heart. . .I thought that was symbolic of him giving her his heart literally. And though this is only an opinion, I believe that Osdorff wouldn't kill himself unless it was for some very strong emotional reasons (like the fact that he was in love).
"Art is not a handicraft, it is the transmission of feeling the artist has experienced."---Tolstoy
Angel2121 makes a couple good points: the gift of the heart-shaped locket and the excitement over winning Thymian in the lottery both point to the younger Osdorff's heterosexual attraction to her. And if anyone needs any further proof that he's straight, recall that Erika led him off to bed in the scene where Thymian drank champagne after arriving at the brothel and donning the party dress. That was an unmistakeably aroused look on his face before he disappeared into the bedroom.
But I disagree that Osdorff killed himself over love. Why would he? Even if she had given away her inheritance, he still had Thymian for his wife. In fact, I don't even believe he truly loved her, I think it was just a bumbling attraction. After all, he did go off with Erika while Thymian was standing right there, and he didn't seem emotionally excited over the idea of marrying Thymian.
I think Osdorff killed himself because he was a pathetic failure and he knew it. It's why his uncle disowned him, and when he saw his one chance for wealth fly out the window, he did, too. He was too much a loser even to see what a good thing he had in Thymian, rich or poor.
I agree. Remember also, he did not try to prevent her from becoming a prostitute. In fact he got paid to keep her there.
- This comment is most likely authentic and fairly close to what I intended to say -
When Thymiane goes to the reading of the will the notary greets her as Countess Osdorff, which at least strongly implies that she and the (younger) Count had actually married.
Osdorff certainly wasn't gay; as zwot notes he went to bed with Erika at one point and I think we are entitled to assume that as a fixture in the brothel he would get to sleep with most of the girls if they were bored or feeling generous. Pabst was a little more upfront about homosexuality - eg the Countess in "Pandora's Box". And Osdorff clearly kills himself over the loss of the money.
In fact this film was pretty subtle for a silent melodrama, there wasn't much ham in evidence, and critics at the time routinely complained about Brooks' inexpressivity (precisely what makes her performances feel so modern now).
Regarding the OP's other question, Kenneth Tynan's seminal piece on Louise Brooks says this:-
"Pabst seemed to lose interest," Brooks told an interviewer some years afterward. "He more or less said, 'I'm tired of this picture,' and he gave it a soft ending." His first, and much tougher, intention had been to demonstrate that humanitarianism alone could never solve society's problems. He wanted Thymiane to show her contempt for her husband's (he means the Count's) liberal platitudes by setting herself up as the madam of a whorehouse. The German distributors, however, refused to countenance such a radical denouement, and Pabst was forced to capitulate. The result is a flawed masterpiece, with a shining central performance that even the closing, compromised sequences cannot dim.
Whole (wonderful) article is here:-
http://www.geocities.com/debstj/tynan.html
I used to want to change the world. Now I just want to leave the room with a little dignity.
Hmm, that's interesting. I was expecting a tough ending, especially given the title's reference a "Lost Girl", and was surprised not to find one. So thanks for letting us know what happened.
shareI think good points have been made for opposing arguments about the young count, but I am inclined to agree with this:
In fact, I don't even believe he truly loved her, I think it was just a bumbling attraction.
I don't think he was in love with Thymiane at all. He was fond of her, certainly, but look how hesitant he was to agree to marry her. It was the prospect of money that pushed him into the idea. True, he was sexually attracted to her, but he was hitting on several girls in that brothel (right from when Thymiane first entered the brothel - he copped with Erika, not caring that Thymiane was pretty much being forced into prostitution).
When Thymiane had that awful encounter with her father and Osdorff went over to her, it became painfully clear had little interest in supporting or comfoting her like someone in love would; he just wanted his prize from the lottery (ie her body). I thought the physical close proximity of the two really laid bare how distant they were emotionally - she was completely ignoring him, and he just wanted her like the rest of the men wanted the girls on that dance floor.
I so wanted Osdorff to be a kindly, protective figure in Thymiane's life but, quite aptly i suppose, he turned out to be just another let down. He was weak - but that made him likably vulnerable in a way.
Oh, and i'm pretty sure they definately got married. How else would she have become a countess?? She needed the title TO get that money. If she could have the money regardless, I don't think she would have married Osdorff, especially seen as she knew he was only doing it for wealth. And especially as he offered her a way out but then led her into prostitution.
"Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others."
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The ending could have been much stronger. Why didn't she expose the evil ones, and shut them down, rather than saving only one girl?
shareThymian wore black to the Count's funeral as well. My take on this is she married the Count, who was a useless loser who didn't have the capacity to love anyone. (Well, he seemed to be quite taken with himself, so maybe I'm wrong.)
I just saw the movie. When she got the letter about her dad dying and was left some money. She had mentioned she was going to claim it and start a new life. The madame said to do that you have to have a new identity. So why don't you marry the Count. They shook hands and agreed to get married for the new id.
Next scene we see her go to her fathers house. It is obvious she is already married because of the deference she is treated with. The lawyer basically bows down to her. She gets back to the brothel where her husband is already planning out how to spend the money. He looks like he is planning on building a house. In any case he drops dead, IMO the most bizarre scene in the movie. When she goes to the funeral, the old man who was his uncle and he felt bad that he disowned him and since she was married to her he asked if he could make up for how he treated his nephew. She agreed.
I am sure the uncle has a huge estate and I am sure she goes and lives with him. They seem to get along just fine and even introduces her as his niece and calls her Countess. So of course his nephew, the young Count, and her were married. So even though she just married the young Count for a new identity, she was fortunate to have him drop dead. Because that is when she runs into the old Count and her new life starts. I am sure if the young Count lived she would of been back in that brothel as soon as the money was gone. And I am sure that would of taken around 20 minutes. The best thing that happened to her was her hubby dropping dead.
Actually her husband jumped out of the window, so not so bizarre. It's a little difficult to see clearly though.
The narration also says she is miserable with her uncle.
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I don't think he was in love with Thymiane at all. He was fond of her, certainly, but look how hesitant he was to agree to marry her. It was the prospect of money that pushed him into the idea. True, he was sexually attracted to her, but he was hitting on several girls in that brothel (right from when Thymiane first entered the brothel - he copped with Erika, not caring that Thymiane was pretty much being forced into prostitution).