Guess the ratings 12.19 - UPDATED - with finals - Supernatural (2005) Discussion

My guess 1.45 / Demo: 0.4

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Congratulations, aduty! 👏

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Good call! Who would've thought it'd be lower than 1.45? Since ratings tend to fall after an episode that's poor, I'm wondering what next week will look like.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Since ratings tend to fall after an episode that's poor, I'm wondering what next week will look like.

Me too!

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[–] aduty1 (160) 7 years ago

I was working a theory that episodes where Dean is the hero or at least competent the ratings go up. Episodes where Dean looks like an idiot or others get the kill that should have been his, they go down. I figured the bait in switch with Moloch, particularly without dean using the colt, would cause a rating drop.

Considering last weeks episode has wound everyone up even worse and they destroyed the colt, I think they will be even lower this week.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

In support of your argument of Dean being Dean or Dean being present being important to the ratings, look at what happened the week after Regarding Dean. The ratings went from 1.73 and a demo of .58 to 1.811 and a demo of .68. Then the week after that, they were back down to 1.65 and 0.57 and haven't been that high again.

I've been seeing Cas fans complaining for weeks that he's not been on the show. After The Memory Remains, I saw many Dean fans online who were angry and saying they weren't going to watch again until they heard he was back on the show. This is anecdotal, as we all know that the online fandom only represents a small percentage of viewers, however, even with the return of Cas, as shown in the promo at the end of The Memory Remains (the only real promotion done for the show for general audiences), The Future could only pull 1.38 and *0.465. I'm guessing the numbers weren't lower because the loss of Dean fans was off set by the return of Cas fans. This week, I have seen bi-bros saying that they are angry, because they're unhappy that Cas is once again going against the Winchesters and because Dean and Sam really had no purpose other than to act as a distraction for Dagon at the sandbox.

This is a very complex fandom. Are there fans who are happy with the show? Yes, and I have seen plenty of them, but are they enough to keep the show afloat? Not for very long if the show is making Dean Fans, Cas Fans, and plenty of Bi-bro fans angry enough not to watch. And I fully expect to hit a 0.4 next week given that the demo was only 0.465 this week - that's only a difference of .016 keeping it from being rounded down to 0.4. Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe enough people hate Mary to bring the numbers up if they think Ketch is going to turn on her, but then if they hate Mary because of what the show has done to her, then why would they care enough to watch when she's the focus?

*unrounded - source: http://www.spottedratings.com/2017/04/spotted-ratings-thursday-42717.html#more

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

As a brother fan and a Dean fan, I hate this season.
However I don't mind that Castiel turned on the brothers because I never cared about the Team Free Will concept and I rather Castiel have his own motivations and not be the Winchesters' "purse dog". My anger comes from the fact that the brothers have been demoted in their own show, that their unique relationship which the show has used as a selling point since Day 1 has been neglected in the most egregious of ways and that Dean has pretty much been erased from the narrative.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

My anger comes from the fact that the brothers have been demoted from their own show, that their unique relationship which the show has used as a selling point since Day 1 has been neglected in the most egregious of ways and that Dean has pretty much been erased from the narrative.

Same here. The narrative has completely changed and characterization has gone out the window.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

I'll add that Dean is my primary reason for watching, which is why I can't let go of there having to be something more to his neglect, but the nods to it are few and far between. I guess we'll find out next week and the week after as the betrayal of him by everyone in his inner circle has now been completed with Cas.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Based on that TV Line tidbit, there won't be any pay off for Dean being right about the BMOL all along. Dabb made sure to downplay Dean's reaction to his family dragging him into the BMOL death trap.

I guess outside of the Colt being stolen, I don't see Castiel's decision as this big betrayal. I'm bothered by this assumption that he's doing something wrong if he doesn't jump when the Winchesters say how high. It's like he's not allowed to have his own ideas and I say this as someone who's never been invested in the character. I appreciate that he's following his own path. Whether it blows up in his face or not, Castiel usually doesn't operate from a place of malice, and he's only doing what he believes is right. I love Dean but he annoyed me to no end with all this anger at Castiel. I liked when Rachel reminded Dean that Castiel is an angel and not his personal assistant. Like Dean, sit the fudge down lol.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

I guess outside of the Colt being stolen, I don't see Castiel's decision as this big betrayal. I'm bothered by this assumption that he's doing something wrong if he doesn't jump when the Winchesters say how high. It's like he's not allowed to have his own ideas and I say this as someone who's never been invested in the character.

I think that Cas playing Dean to get the Colt, so he could go with the angels to kill Dagon and Kelly was as big of a betrayal as Mary playing her sons to get the Colt from Ramiel to give it to the BMoL. If we're harsh on Mary for that, we should be harsh on Cas for this. He did it for the Winchesters' own good and to keep them safe whether they wanted him to or not, which are the same reasons she joined the BMoL. The re-introduction of the Colt with Mary, and its demise in this episode were framed this way intentionally to make a complete circle. Was there a difference in the results of what Cas did to what Mary did? No other hunters got killed. Cas still almost died. Dean and Sam were still roughed up a bit, and Dean had to be healed . . . and now Cas is a true believer who knocked Dean out even though Dean essentially begged for him not to do it. Was that necessary? Or could he have tried to explain what he saw and get the Winchesters on side? Is this part a betrayal, because Cas is a true believer, or was Cas simply mind controlled into doing that? I guess it depends on how this plays out, but we won't see Cas again until the finale.

I don't need Cas to bow down to what the Winchesters want, and in no way do I see him not doing what they want him to do as a betrayal . . . the lies, using them to get something he wants, and doing things behind their back for their own good are the betrayals to me.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

I think that Cas playing Dean to get the Colt, so he could go with the angels to kill Dagon and Kelly was as big of a betrayal as Mary playing her sons to get the Colt from Ramiel to give it to the BMoL. If we're harsh on Mary for that, we should be harsh on Cas for this. He did it for the Winchesters' own good and to keep them safe whether they wanted him to or not, which are the same reasons she joined the BMoL. The re-introduction of the Colt with Mary and its demise in this episode were framed this way intentionally to make a complete circle. Was there a difference in the results of what Cas did to what Mary did? No other hunters got killed. Cas still almost died. Dean and Sam were roughed up a bit, and Dean had to be healed . . . and now Cas is a true believer who knocked Dean out even though Dean essentially begged for him not to do it.

I understand where you're coming from and I see what you mean by circle. I just don't see Castiel stealing the Colt as comparable on the betrayal scale to Mary gambling her flesh and blood for it. I don't place best friends and mothers on the same emotional plane and I don't judge their faults the same. I will judge a mother more harshly for almost getting her children killed compared to a best friend merely jeopardizing a friendship.

That's also why I'm harshest on Sam when he messes up because his history with Dean doesn't give him ANY leeway to mess up where his brother's concerned. Others will always get a lighter sentence than Sam for the same offenses because Dean didn't raise them, he doesn't love them the same, he didn't give them as much, he didn't sacrifice as much, he doesn't expect as much from them, he didn't go to Hell for them. I basically expect a perfection out of Sam I don't expect from anybody else. Mary's status as a mother is why her failures are unforgivable to me while I will give Castiel a pass for following his own heart.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Mary's status as a mother is why her failures are unforgivable to me while I will give Castiel a pass for following his own heart.

See, this is interesting to me. For me, Mary doesn't know her sons as well as Cas does, and Sam and Dean don't know Mary as well as they know Cas. Their trust in Mary is an automatic given, simply because of who she is, whereas their trust in Cas has been earned and tested and lost and strengthened over time, so it means more when it's betrayed.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

I guess it comes down to a personal philosophy. I expect more of a mother than I do a best friend. Whether she knows them or not, it's Mary's job (whether she accepts it or not, is good at it or not) not to put Sam and Dean in harm's way by simple virtue of being the one who birthed them.

Castiel was his own man/angel for centuries before the Winchesters came along and his relationship with them will never change the fact that he's still his own person/angel and can disagree with them whenever he sees fit. I simply do not believe a mother has the right to disagree with her children to the extent that she risks their lives, no matter what the circumstances are.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

I guess it comes down to a personal philosophy.

Yeah, I have a lot of adopted people in my life, and maybe that's part of the reason I see it the way I do. Biological vs. adopted.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

I understand :)

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Also, I'm annoyed that they've done nothing with Sam this season regarding his feelings about much of anything. Almost anything we've gotten from him about Mary has been entirely because of Jared's acting it's been so subtle. I mean, at the end of episode 2, Sam's hope at having Mary there in the scene he had with her was great. I think we were supposed to see in episode 3 how devastated he was that Mary left, and his little flinch when she walked out was great. In episode 4, I think that even though Sam was the one trying to get Dean to open up about Mary leaving, we were supposed to see that Sam was the one who was the most angry about it given how he treated Magda's Mom before he even knew Magda's Mom was the baddie and given that the case was a psy kid case, something that the audience associates with Sam, his connection to Azazel, and Mary who made the deal with Azazel. That was never followed up.

I guess he backed Dean up when Dean kicked Mary out of the bunker, but he was also the first to say they'd been freezing her out long enough and then went running when she sent an S.O.S., which is understandable, but he then stayed even though he knew she'd lied/exaggerated to get him there and used them to steal the Colt, which got Wally killed/Cas almost killed - then the BMoL compound was overrun, and he had to stay, which is again understandable, but his issues with his Mom were never spoken of or brought up again other than the odd 'Have you heard from Mom?' that he asks Dean.

Then you have how subtle his storyline leading up to joining the BMoL was. It has to have started when his hero Vince Vicente became Lucifer's vessel and then died, because Sam thought it was a loss even though they saved a room full of people. Then he called and hung up on Mick in the next episode, because he wanted help with Lucifer (presumably after the loss of Vince and his being upset about that), but stopped himself because Dean hated the BMoL. Then I guess Mary saying it was okay to work with the BMoL made it easier for him to do at the end of The Raid. I can only guess that it had nothing to do with keeping an eye on Mary, because he and Dean haven't done a single hunt with her since they started working with the BMoL. It was an incredibly subtle storyline - so subtle that I saw many people saying that Sam joining the BMoL came out of nowhere.

His relationship with Dean? Well, I have no idea where he is there other than he keeps playing the peace maker for some reason and in doing so goes against Dean every single time there is a conflict. He chose a side. So far it hasn't been Dean's.

To reinforce this, they even had Sam backtrack from all the growth he had last year by having him lie to Dean about working with the BMoL. It was actually a pretty big betrayal in my book, because he may have told Dean by the end of the next episode, but in terms of their lives off-screen, he had Dean working for them for weeks . . . weeks are a long time to be doing something dubious like that. Again, this reinforces to me that he chose a side, and it is anyone else's, but Dean's. Why? It makes no sense to me at this point in the show that he would be doing this, because again, there hasn't been any follow through on the Sam and Mary interactions that might explain it.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

In episode 4, I think that even though Sam was the one trying to get Dean to open up about Mary leaving, we were supposed to see that Sam was the one who was the most angry about it given how he treated Magda's Mom before he even knew Magda's Mom [/quote]
I honestly didn't see it like that. I always saw Dean as being angrier. I never sensed much anger from Sam, just hurt, while I always felt Dean was hurt AND angry. I looked at it as them giving Sam the peacemaker role with Mary because Dean already played that role with John.

[quote]Mary who made the deal with Azazel. That was never followed up. [/quote]
I always felt that there was a change in the way Mary was presented. She started off decent, that's when she was worried about facing Sam because of her deal with Azazel, and then she turned into this character I despise, and never mentioned Azazel again, which is in line with how soulless they started writing her after 'The Foundry".

[quote]I guess he backed Dean up when Dean kicked Mary out of the bunker, but he was also the first to say they'd been freezing her out long enough and then went running when she sent an S.O.S., which is understandable, but he then stayed even though he knew she'd lied/exaggerated to get him there and used them to steal the Colt, which got Wally killed/Cas almost killed - then the BMoL compound was overrun, and he had to stay, which is again understandable, but his issues with his Mom were never spoken of or brought up again other than the odd 'Have you heard from Mom?' that he asks Dean.[/quote]
Again, I honestly thought they were writing Sam as desperate for Mary's affection as Dean was desperate for John's approval.

[quote]they even had Sam backtrack from all the growth he had last year by having him lie to Dean about working with the BMoL. It was actually a pretty big betrayal in my book, because he may have told Dean by the end of the next episode, but in terms of their lives off-screen, he had Dean working for them for weeks . . . weeks are a long time to be doing something dubious like that.

I saw it as another proof that the writing doesn't care about showcasing the layers in the relationship because this season can't be bothered to write actual dialogue between Sam and Dean because it doesn't care about Sam and Dean or their interactions. Started in Alpha and Omega where Sam had no reaction to Dean being the bomb. The Sam who was battling for Dean like a madman all through 10 and 11 was put on mute in Dabb's episode and he's been on mute ever since.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

I honestly didn't see it like that. I always saw Dean as being angrier. I never sensed much anger from Sam, just hurt, while I always felt Dean was hurt AND angry.[/quote]

See, the way I saw Sam with Magda's Mom was that he was uncharacteristically harsh with her without any real evidence at first. In that interview he did with the mother, I thought his anger came through pretty loud and clear with the tone of his voice and the look he gave the mother when he told her that she killed her daughter. I felt at the time that it was hinting at anger under the surface that he had for personal reasons. And it was a pretty heavy Sam/Mother of a psy kid episode. She was his real adversary. To him (and he was right) problems came from inside the family . . . Dean thought they came from outside the family . . . or that's the way I saw it.

[quote]She started off decent, that's when she was worried about facing Sam because of her deal with Azazel, and then she turned into this character I despise, and never mentioned Azazel again, which is in line with how soulless they started writing her after 'The Foundry".[/quote]

Yeah, Mary started off okay. She could've been an incredibly interesting character if they'd stuck with showing more of her internal struggles, but we really only got that in 'The Foundry,' and then the show quit on trying to show us what she was going through and decided instead to turn her into a cold, heartless hunter every time we've seen her since.

[quote]Again, I honestly thought they were writing Sam as desperate for Mary's affection as Dean was desperate for Dean's approval.[/quote]

See, that's what I thought until it was never brought up again. Sam hasn't even seen her since he started working for the BMoL, and I don't think either one has talked to her since then. It's another thing that doesn't make sense to me.

[quote]I saw it as another proof that the writing doesn't care about showcasing the layers in the relationship because this season can't be bothered to write actual dialogue between Sam and Dean because it doesn't care about Sam and Dean or their interactions. Started in Alpha and Omega where Sam had no reaction to Dean being the bomb. The Sam who was battling for Dean like a madman all through 10 and 11 was put on mute in Dabb's episode and he's been on mute ever since.

Yeah, I agree.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Considering last weeks episode has wound everyone up even worse and they destroyed the colt, I think they will be even lower this week.

Well bring it on! lol
It might make me a "bad" fan, but I want the ratings to plummet. This show is too good to have a horrible series finale and the chances are high that it WILL have one if Dabb's the one writing it. Dabb being replaced is the only chance the Winchesters have at being given a good sendoff.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Hiya!

I hate to do this to you, but I don't think this one is on until next week. Doesn't mean I still won't play along though. I'm sticking with 1.51.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Thanks, Drifter. I checked on the CW SPN Twitter and you're right. I'll change the OP!

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

No problem. I know what it's like to be expecting an episode, turn it on, and then find out it's not new. I think it's supposed to be the Hellhound one again tonight, but I might be wrong about that. At least it's just a one week break, and then I don't think there are anymore until the end of the season. This year's scheduling has been much better for that, I think, because they started in October.

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[–] Denese121 (135) 7 years ago

1.6

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

Hey Vee, are we going to go with this thread for the episode on Thursday? If we are, I'm sticking with my guess.

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[–] aduty1 (160) 7 years ago

Same with my guess.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Sorry for only replying now. I updated the post :)

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

So, the early ratings look like they're at 1.4 and 0.5 in the demo.

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[–] SammiWin (1112) 7 years ago

Is that good/bad? I don't understand how to "read" ratings
Is 1.4 million? What's demo

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

The demo is the one the networks really care about because of advertising - adults aged 18-49. To give you and idea of the demo in previous years, last year ended with an average demo for the season of 0.7. The average for season 10 was 0.81. Season 9: 0.9. There was a big decrease between 6 and 7 (they got rid of Gamble in 7) and then a big increase in 8 and an increase in 9, but there's been a steady decrease since then of around .1 every year. Currently the season demo average is 0.61, but if the show keeps pulling these 0.5s, it's going to get lower. On the CW (This is happening on all the other major networks too because of changes in watching trends, but the CW seems to be suffering more than the others), the ratings are sliding pretty harshly for all of their shows, so the thinking is that Supernatural is okay, but I personally would like something to be done about the show runners, because I don't think I've disliked a season this much, and I'm thinking that the ratings are reflective of a lot of fans opinions of this season. I think the ratings could rebound if the writing/storyline got better.

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[–] cassiopeia (528) 7 years ago

I think that Dabb is throwing out possible spinoff ideas for Supernatural after Jared and Jensen are gone for good. It looks like he is going Hogwarts (or Superwarts) vs Devil Baby out to annihilate the universe big bad with the Winchesters as "Generals" (and special guest stars) in the background for moral support.

I think we may have to face the fact that Supernatural (at least starring Jared and Jensen, judging by this season) is over and it isn't coming back.

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[–] PAForrest (158) 7 years ago

I think we may have to face the fact that Supernatural (at least starring Jared and Jensen, judging by this season) is over and it isn't coming back.

I agree. Their characters won't even get a decent send-off - certainly Dean won't.

Dabb needs to be fired. Unfortunately they'll never fire Singer.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Dabb needs to be fired.

I can't believe how bad a showrunner he is creatively... and then I remember Bloodlines.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

He's writing Supernatural: the Bloodlines Edition.
I love this show but I'm hoping for a 0.4 to send a message.
Dabb is dreadful and he needs to go.

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[–] aduty1 (160) 7 years ago

I think we are going to hit 0.4. I was wrong about this week but I am very surprised it dropped to 1.40 viewers. That's a 750,000 viewer drop from the premiere. Every week seems to be getting viewers madder and madder. Judging from the reaction of last nights episode, I think more will tune out next week.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Not surprised it dropped to 1.40.
Honestly I was praying it would. The episode deserves those numbers and worse.
So pissed right now I can't see straight lol.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

After this week, I'm thinking that we'll see 0.4 next week too. I also hope it hits that to send a message. I'm not sure if the message will get through, but that's what I'm hoping, because I want this fixed before the show is as destroyed as the Colt.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

I want this fixed before the show is as destroyed as the Colt.

I feel like the show I love is going up in flames.

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[–] SammiWin (1112) 7 years ago

I despise the idea of a Supernatural spinoff - they are not for everyone. They seem to only work with the crime drama genre - like Law & Order and CSI.

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[–] SammiWin (1112) 7 years ago

Thanks for that. I envy all who got a chance to watch the show from the beginning.....
It looks like they are in the "danger zone" of ratings - I don't know much about the writings/showrunners but they seem to be sticking around?

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Hey SammiWin :)

There's a ratings thread here that compares SPN to the rest of the CW shows.

https://moviechat.org/movies/tt0460681/posts/58ef6a11926cc70011f609f0

Overall, the show's doing okay. All the CW shows are down significantly in the ratings this season and Supernatural is the number 3 show of the network at 12 years old.

The issue is the rate at which SPN is losing viewers and we've hit a new low in the number of viewers this week.

Again, it's Spring and all the other shows are down but the downward trend in SPN's ratings should be a cause for concern at this point because it comes with fan complaints and negative reviews. When fans complain about a season the way they are complaining about this one, they don't tend to leave en masse DURING the season. They just don't come back AFTER that season ends (ask Arrow).

A scary number would be hitting a 0.4 demo. We're not there yet but we'll see how pissed Nielsen viewers get.

On the other hand, we only have 4 episodes left and the show's renewed for 13 and almost guaranteed a season 14, even if it's a shorter one to hit the 300 episode milestone.

It's up to the CW boss. He wants SPN to go beyond 14 seasons. If I were him, I'd have a talk with Andrew Dabb about that cause...

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[–] aduty1 (160) 7 years ago

I may be projecting but it seems to me from the boards I have been going too that people are getting angrier with each new episode. If the professional reviews are turning negative as well then hopefully there will be enough "what went wrong?" stories that will convince the CW to step in.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

I don't think you're projecting. People have been angry all season and it's getting worse. I pray someone intervenes.

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[–] SammiWin (1112) 7 years ago

Thanks :)
I'm not surprised Supernatural is losing viewers, but it's disappointing...all around.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

1.38? Wow. It adjusted down.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Yep! And I'm okay with that number. * evil snicker *

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[–] aduty1 (160) 7 years ago

I am conflicted about this. I want the ratings to go low enough that someone steps in (like season 7) but not so low that the show can't rebound. I think 1.15 and 0.4 is about as low as it can go before they think about wrapping the show up. It's just weird that after 11 seasons of worrying that the ratings weren't high enough now I worry they aren't low enough.

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 7 years ago

I love this show to bits. But if they're just going to retread old plots and write flat uninspired characters doing stupid things to shock and awe or advance the story then it's time for it to end.

It's a shame because a supernatural show should be able to go on forever. Anything can happen in the world of Sam & Dean. There are no confines. The Walking Dead has confines, so did Vampire Diaries, etc. One show is dying, the other is dead.

But two good looking, street smart, blue collar, intrepid monster hunters with a truckload of emotional baggage - well, their adventures should be able to go on forever.

It's a crime what has happened to this show. I always wanted it to go out with a bang (from Dean's grenade launcher perhaps) but it now seems likely this once great show will fade into a dying sunset with 0.2 or less ratings.

None of the actors or awesome crew need hang their heads. But TPTB and writers should be tarred and feathered!!

Getting off soapbox now and going for a much needed morning coffee. :(

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

I don't know, Supergirl, the number 2 show did a 0.6 recently. The average demo of the CW keeps going down.
I don't know if a 0.4 would cause them to want to wrap up the show but it should at least make them take the complaints more seriously.

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[–] Bella-UK (1282) 7 years ago

I didn't realise how many of you were so depressed about the writing and direction the show is going. As I said earlier, I am middle of the road. It in areas is going on a bit about Lucifer's baby and my suspicions think that Lucifer is gonna be killed off. I think now many fans are disappointed with Andrew Dabb, yet we all felt this way when Carver signed up and dealt us with Season 8. I don't think it's that bad yet. I was so angry with the angst and Sam not looking for Dean that it split me into two pieces. I still have an empty whole within me as regards S8.

What I am trying to say is, that Carver did turn it around, and the show was stable. Perhaps with better writing material Dabb will be the same. We know he is a good writer look back to earlier seasons he wrote some fantastic stuff and was one of the top writers then. All I am saying, is don't give up. Hang in there folks!!

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[–] PAForrest (158) 7 years ago

As a Sam fan that's really easy for you to say because you're enjoying Sam being given everything to do, including everything that Dean would normally do, or at least share doing. The writing has never been as one-sided and inequitable as it is this year. It's actually embarrassing in how obvious it is that there is a moratorium on writing for Jensen/Dean.

Everything that made Dean Winchester who is he has been literally eliminated. For all intents and purposes, Dean Winchester is not even a character on the show anymore. You could go back and write out the guy who looks like him completely this year and nothing changes. He is wallpaper, or worse, and, I'm sorry, but that's being reflected in the plummeting ratings.

I always wondered how a Dean-less SPN would do - now we see, it sucks, and people who like the character and want to see the character of Dean Winchester have zero reason to tune in, so they're not. Season 12 is a complete wash for most Dean fans, and unless that turns around, unless someone from the CW or WB comes in and fires Dabb or holds his job hostage and forces him to go back and promote Jensen Ackles/Dean Winchester back to a lead character and write for him again, however much or little he is on screen, season 13 will be no different.

And that's all without the fact that he destroyed Mary Winchester, and the storytelling is just stupid and awful. Plus, while JP/Sam Winchester clearly still has a champion BTS who is at least demanding that the character be given "hero" stuff to do, the fact of the matter is that Dabb doesn't actually care about either Winchester, and his goal has clearly been to show they are unnecessary in general to the universe he's trying to create.

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[–] Bella-UK (1282) 7 years ago

As a Sam fan that's really easy for you to say because you're enjoying Sam being given everything to do, including everything that Dean would normally do, or at least share doing.

PA that is a harsh thing to say, as you know I love both brothers with a passion. I think they still have both things to do, and they are working together and one thing people have noticed is that there isn't ANY brother angst that there has been in past seasons. Dean has had stuff to do and people I've spoken to say they don't see this. He might not be centre in the storytelling like s9/10 I grant you, but I still see him doing things. Looking out for Cas for one, playing a role caring for him. It shows us he has a purpose and a side. He's even told Sam to pick a side, and Sam came through. I solely agree with you about Mary and that they've destroyed her and what she believes in. I doubt Dabb will be sacked unless the ratings plummet, so for now, we don't have much choice. Or as others have said in the past stop watching which you already have.

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[–] PAForrest (158) 7 years ago

I don't mean to be harsh, and I do apologize, but frustration is very high this year. And it's no secret that you do lean Sam, and that's great, especially this year. But you have to understand how disappointed Dean fans are this year if you really do love both characters. Plus, a lot of Sam fans do seem to prefer Dean not to play the badass hunter or have the hero moments, and to stand off to the sidelines caring. And Dean's great at caring, but that's very passive and sidelining, and doesn't give Dean a whole lot else to do.

In the meantime Sam is getting all the kills, is doing all the research, interacting with all the guest stars, giving all the speeches. Dean's not even there half the time, and when he is he apparently can't stumble out of the car to get into the scene in time to participate.

No, the guys aren't fighting, which is great, I don't enjoy the fighting either. But what's there to fight about when one of them is barely there? How many times has Dean been sent off into the cornfield - eliminated from the episode completely for no apparent reason? No one around for Sam to fight with, so they're not fighting.

There's no heart or soul to Dean this year - he acts like he has no stake in anything that's happening around him, because no one is writing for him. A cardboard cut-out would work just as well, and I would think bi-bros would actually care about that, care if one of the brothers isn't very present.

So, yes, it's very frustrating for those of us who lean Dean, and a lot of us aren't watching anymore. But we're going to continue to complain loudly because we want Dean Winchester to come back to the show, because we still love the character and the actor who plays him, and think he deserves to be fully part of the show.

I don't actually care if Dean is the center of the storyline - Dean fans have had way too many years of watching Dean not having the mytharc or the storyline centered on him, so we're very used to that. And at this point the storytelling is so bad that I can't be paid enough to care anymore about mytharc or storyline.

But I do still care about characterization, and want and think there is no good reason that one of two leads can't be equitably written for. That's all a lot of us really want, especially at this late stage in the game. Dean is supposed to be a hero, a badass hunter, someone who can walk and chew gum at the same time and knows how to use a weapon. Jensen is usually great with guest stars - now he rarely has any contact with them, so we don't even get to see that.

Whoever this guy is masquerading as Dean Winchester apparently has never used a weapon in his life - it would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. It's now a bad drinking game as to how Dean won't get to kill the bad guy every single week now. And that's not a fun drinking game, because it means the character looks ridiculous.

There's no reason the hero moments can't be shared by both characters, but that's not happening. One-sided inequitable writing has been the primary reason there's a division in the fandom, and there's no reason for it when there are only two leads. There are shows with large ensemble casts that do a superior job of writing fairly for all the characters. This show has it easy, and yet it's always been a problem of their own making and choosing.

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[–] aduty1 (160) 7 years ago

Look at Dabb's first story for Supernatural, Beginnings End. The family goes to New York and finds the island has been warded, protected against demons and has a militia that kills the monsters that come to the city. The militia seems effective at first but is actually run by a psycho that tries to kill them. Sam gets a solo story where Dean vanishes for most of the issue and the mini series is about Sam and John (Dean is a side character). Sound familiar?

Dabb has always been a Sam fan and has always wanted to tell this story. Singer comes from a time where Sam was suppose to be the star and Dean was suppose to be the sidekick. Dabb came in at that time and believes it even though others realized what a benefit Dean/Jensen were. Now that Dabb is show runner it seems like he is trying to make it into the show he signed up for in the beginning. He obviously loves Sam and seems to be hell bent on proving Sam is better than Dean. He also seems to have an 8 year backlog of rejected story ideas that he is desperately trying to prove were good but have proven to be a disaster for the show.

He may have gotten it out of his system but I fear he knows he is on borrowed time and is going to solely focus on Sam and his "world building" with whatever time he has left.

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[–] Bella-UK (1282) 7 years ago

A thread not so long ago mentioned that J2 were negotiating more time off because of 'family' both have had babies recently so perhaps this is a contributing factor, I don't know. But I hear you and what your voice is saying to me. I do notice the boys are not on screen as much and we watch a semi-regular cast when you think back to the old days, that never happened. J2 were in every single scene, now not so much. Cas and Crowley are taking up screen time too. So if they are negotiating less, hours we necessarily won't know. Except for seeing less of them on screen.

As for one brother having more kills than another, that's never bothered me. But it was nice to see Sam for a chance getting in a few as of in recent years they've been thin on the ground. Dean doesn't interact much with guest stars I get that one too. I do notice. But as far as speeches, that's not hit my radar yet. Again, what fans are saying as the storytelling isn't balanced again like it used to be.

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[–] aduty1 (160) 7 years ago

I understand J2 wants more time with their families and I am fine with what they negotiated. The problem has been what they fill the time up with. Mary and Ketch just make me angry when they are on screen. Kelly and Dagon just bored me. Luci and Crowley were fun at first but now it's just them being snarky with each other.

The thing is, they had a character that people were starting to like with Mick but they killed him. The Crowley/Cas buddy cop thing had potential but that went away real quick. Even splitting them up from time to time in episodes would work if one didn't completely vanish *cough*...Dean.

As for Sam getting all the kills, it depends on the story and balance as well. Moloch was the perfect example. They were selling the Dean/colt thing since he said welcome back sweetheart. The photos all showed Dean with the colt. A lot of people have been waiting for him to use it. Not only did that not happen but Dean will never be able to use it again. I think the ratings would have been a little better if Dean had some of the big kill action. Ramiel, the alpha, super hellhound or Moloch. Just one would have taken some of the edge off and not make it look like it was all about Sam.

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[–] PAForrest (158) 7 years ago

They were selling the Dean/colt thing since he said welcome back sweetheart. The photos all showed Dean with the colt. A lot of people have been waiting for him to use it. Not only did that not happen but Dean will never be able to use it again. I think the ratings would have been a little better if Dean had some of the big kill action. Ramiel, the alpha, super hellhound or Moloch. Just one would have taken some of the edge off and not make it look like it was all about Sam.

The way the colt was handled was quite overtly a middle finger to the character, his fans, and the actor. It was ludicrous they couldn't give Dean even that one, which just ended up being more proof that it's all about Dabb's dislike of Dean or Jensen, and his desire to pretend the show only has one lead.

In fact, Dabb's writers are expending more energy keeping Dean out of their scripts and the storyline than they are trying to tell a good story. And that has nothing to do with amount of screen time negotiated for.

If our current showrunner hates Jensen's character, or even the actor, that much, then FIRE HIM. Please! Just fire Jensen Ackles and then you can have your stupid one-lead show.

Of course, then all the rest of Jensen's fans will stop watching, and golly gee, that's the problem for the network and studio. Anytime Jensen has made noise about being unhappy and maybe not signing a new contract, like in season 6 and again after the backhalf of season 8, Peter Roth from WB comes through with promises and begs him to stay. Which means the network and and studio don't believe the show can stand without Jensen and Dean.

So my advice to Dabb is to grow up and suck it up. If he doesn't like it and he can't fire Jensen, then he needs to resign his position and move on.

Besides, he has zero talent as a storyteller anyway and even the bloggers are starting to notice.

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[–] Bella-UK (1282) 7 years ago

Don't forget Audty Dean killed Hilter and was the proudest moment for him. In the past, he's had many big-bads Azazel, Ruby, Zacharia, Dick Roman, Benny, Cain, Abaddon, Death and Tessa, The Pheonix, Eve, Magnus. There are probably more Dean kills, but my memory is crap.

What I am saying is Dean has had loads of HUGE kills in the past compared to Sam. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter jack squatt who's killed what, just that the bastard monsters are dead. They've both served a purpose in killing monsters no matter how bigger a monster they were. So it doesn't bother me in the least about kills because it's a joint job, there in this fight together.

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[–] aduty1 (160) 7 years ago

I agree that Dean has more of the big kills and I don't mind Sam getting some too. I just don't like how they went about it. All the big kills until 12 were earned. They went over the course of several episodes. The big kills now are written as check boxes and smack of desperation. Dean killed YED so Sam gets one (even though he was a one off). Sam kills the Alpha who is a "prestige" kill so that helps balance the score, the hell hound is the baddest hellhound ever created but it goes out like every other hellhound shown and finally Sam gets to use the colt again to kill Moloch. Instead of creating a monster the viewers are invested in they just say Sam is killing high level monsters. Ironically, Hitler would be a higher prestige kill since he is a real world evil of the highest order.

I agree that Sam had some background time as well in 9 and 10 and I'm sure Sam fans were as upset as Dean fans are but TPTB need to write these episodes for both groups. Alienating any fan group is going to destroy a show that historically had very stable ratings.

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[–] PAForrest (158) 7 years ago

Alienating any fan group is going to destroy a show that historically had very stable ratings.

As is evidence now, and without Dean fans this show would not have stayed on the air as long as it has. Dean is too popular a character to ignore that fact. And alienating Dean fans never makes Sam more popular - it has exactly the opposite effect because of the resentment factor.

As for long past kills, foremost that has nothing whatsoever to do with season 12. Yes, Hitler was one of two - count them, TWO times this season Dean was allowed to behave like the hunter he used to be. Both of them in the first half of the season, both scripts written by the same one writer, and neither enough to make up for Dean spending literally the rest of his time this year either completely off screen in the cornfield or holding up the wallpaper. And sadly now that one lone Dean-fan writer has been brought to heel, and apparently no longer allowed to write Dean as a hero.

But what some fans are forgetting about long past kills from years gone by is that at the same time in those years Sam was the "Chosen One", had the supernatural gifts and the mytharc, all for himself. He was the center of storyline attention at all times for years. Plus he was also allowed to play a successful hunter.

Therefore Dean was allowed to be written as a badass and talented at his job, because Jensen was too good at his job to waste doing nothing, and wasn't that only fair?

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[–] aduty1 (160) 7 years ago

Sam and Dean both fulfilled very specific roles in past seasons and they balanced really well. Dean was the street smart, cynical, bad ass hunter, leader trying to keep everything together. Sam was the book smart, optimistic, computer savvy, empathetic hunter going down the John path. Its understandable for the characters to grow and change. So if he is going to start getting the big kills fine but they need to balance it for Dean. Don't have Sam do all the planning, the leading, the one on one talks, the one that figures out how to kill the monster and all the hunting while Dean stands in the woods. Dean should contribute something...anything and I don't think the negative response would be as bad as it is now.

Now that you mention it there were really only two episodes this entire season where Dean did anything. Other then a demon kill in Stuck in the middle everything else has been off screen. The vampire, the ghoul, wraith and siren were all just in dialog.

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[–] moongazer (4) 7 years ago

How many times has Sam been sidelined or wallpapered in the past? How many times has he been useless? How many times only Dean gets to speak to the guest stars? Too many times and I, as a Sam fan, was dammed frustrated. So I can understand to a certain extent the frustration of Dean fans.

But seriously, the writing of S12 has been nothing to shout about. Sam hasn't been more effective than Dean in preventing anything.

I do like Sam being shown to be the effective hunter that he is. He should be able to hunt and kill as he is an experienced hunter. Same goes for Dean of course.

But then I didn't hear people complain when Dean used the colt to kill the YED or when he killed Hitler. So if you don't mind, I'm happy to see Sam stepping up to the plate as far as big kills are concerned.

Quote from Bella - "But it was nice to see Sam for a chance getting in a few as of in recent years they've been thin on the ground."

Agree with Bella here. I think Dean was ahead when it came to the big kills.

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[–] Idahoforspn (61) 7 years ago

Well said. You explained Dean fan frustration very well.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

👏 👍 👌

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[–] Pondlass1 (122) 7 years ago

Someone made the point over at P.TV that the episode would still have unfolded the way it did even if Sam & Dean had slept in and not been part of any of it. I'll have to go back and re-watch to see if this is actually true, but it was my reaction too. Dean was grumpy and fixed the car, Sam figured the baby would be born during May sweeps and came up with some nonsense about sucking out grace. Other than that, what did they do to drive the plot or affect anything that happened?

Let's face it, the show is dying. We may even get an 0.4 before the finale. I think Dabb has been given the task of finding a spin off and he's devoting all his time to that. Giving Sam and Dean something to do is the last thing on his mind.

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[–] cassiopeia (528) 7 years ago

I read that post too. And she was right. The end scene pretty much summed it up. They might as well have stayed in bed for all they contributed to the story.

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[–] PAForrest (158) 7 years ago

I saw that post too, and the episode described, and sounds right on the money. Honestly, though, that could be said about the entire season, really - especially WRT Dean, but even Sam. JP may have the ticky-box check-list that Dabb is going through - and that's not me saying that, Perez even admitted it - but it only looks like exactly that, a check-list. It's all meaningless when that's how it's coming across.

My big fear is that the Winchesters won't get a proper send-off. Certainly Dean won't, and having the character, or characters, just peter out into oblivion is going to leave a bad taste on the entire series.

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[–] aduty1 (160) 7 years ago

"My big fear is that the Winchesters won't get a proper send-off. Certainly Dean won't, and having the character, or characters, just peter out into oblivion is going to leave a bad taste on the entire series."

That is my fear too. If Dabb writes it Sam will die saving the universe while Dean dies tripping over a rake. However it ends, there will probably be enough interest for limited series events or movies on Netflix. If it was something like that then maybe Kripke would be involved or they would give more control to Jensen in the negotiations. No matter how badly Dabb screws it up some one will be able to fix it. Just ask Gamble.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

We know he is a good writer look back to earlier seasons he wrote some fantastic stuff and was one of the top writers then. [/quote]
He also wrote Bloodlines...

[quote]All I am saying, is don't give up. Hang in there folks!!

I appreciate your enthusiasm and encouraging words, Belle :).
I myself said that Dabb is like every new show runner who gets drunk on power and starts destroying everything before fan uproar forces him to course correct. The problem is that with Carver, I knew for a fact that he cared about the brothers at some point and could come back to that with enough fan pressure.

I've been saying since Alpha and Omega that the difference with Dabb is that he doesn't care about the brothers. I've been sharing my worries about it since S11 finale. I don't know if your remember my posts in the Winchesterland thread but EVERY SINGLE THING I feared would happen has materialized.

The tonal shift in Alpha and Omega was drastic and it showed me :
- Dabb doesn't care about Sam and Dean
- Dabb doesn't care about Sam and Dean's unique relationship.

That's the reason I watch this show in addition to Dean whom I didn't know Dabb also didn't care about at the time.

Ratings plummeting to the depths of Hell is the only hope I have that this man is going to start writing this show like he's supposed to: by honoring the freaking top billed stars that made it what it is today. But no, he's in love with all the stupid side characters of the spin off he's writing in his head and Sam and Dean are an afterthought for him.
ETA: Sorry if I come off angry, Belle. I am, but not at you :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh hey! It's my 500th post lol. Pie for me!!!! 🍰 😋 😜

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[–] Bella-UK (1282) 7 years ago

We know he is a good writer look back to earlier seasons he wrote some fantastic stuff and was one of the top writers then.

That was his worst in recent year's Vee look back to S4/5Not typing out his whole list, but a few from his list below have been hits and misses. But the majority have been superb. I think becoming a show-runner has gone to his head and he's let his guard down. He's superb in the past in what he's written which was why I always stood by him, thinking he's got potential, to great strong, powerful, meaningful episodes. That he'd done his homework, that he'd allowed the brothers to play their part in the stories.

But now, maybe it's too much for him, and his imagination has run dry. He clearly appears to be lagging and appears withdrawn in his writing. Maybe he's suffering from writer's block. Either way, his past record shows his history in being a solid writer, one who knew the shows background and developed characters. It' sad to see him drift away. Looks like his bubble has burst, it's a real shame. As I loved his style.
Yellow Fever
After School Special
Jump the Shark
I believe Children are our Future
Sam Interrupted
Dark Side of the Moon
Hammer of the Gods
Weekend at Bobbies
Family Matters
Unforgiven
Frontierland
The Girl Next Door
Season 7 Time for a Wedding
Plucky Pennywhistle's Magical Menagerie
There Will Be Blood
What's up, Tiger Mommy?

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Thanks for the list. I don't find it reassuring but I won't rain on your parade any further ;D

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[–] Bella-UK (1282) 7 years ago

Sorry Vee, xx

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

😘

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

*Inner voice* Should I say that those were all co-written by Loflin?

Probably shouldn't

Can't help myself.

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[–] Bella-UK (1282) 7 years ago

I grant you, back in those days they were a duo. But he did branch out on his own.

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

I don't want to try and convince you of anything negative if you're happy. We'll leave it at that. :)

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[–] CluelessDrifter (884) 7 years ago

As an aside, I found the breakdown of season 12's viewing numbers (M/F/ages). It's interesting to see how the season started and where it is now.

http://www.tvratingsguide.com/1970/10/supernatural-ratings-season-12.html

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[–] cassiopeia (528) 7 years ago

I can see that all viewers no matter what the demographic seem to have lost their patience with Dabb. The long slow burn for uninteresting stories, subpar guest stars and most importantly no Winchesters isn't resonating with any fan.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

Ah yes... Sinking like a stone 🤧

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[–] Beanie (6) 7 years ago

Well,

I'll add my 2 cents.

I am not surprised the ratings have tumbled. I suspect they will continue to do so. (Oh, right, yes.....it's Spring)

I admit it. I no longer watch the show live. In fact, I am 4 (?) episodes behind. I'd have to check my DVR to know the exact number.

I loved Season 2, 1 and 3.
I liked Season 4 and half of 6.
I tolerated Season 5 .
I suffered through Season 7.
I loathed the first half of Season 8.
I liked Season 9, 10 and half of 11.
This season? Blah.

I am bored, uninterested, disengaged and unconnected with the plot, storyline, characters, BMOL's and the overall timing and pacing of the entire season.

I don't have a problem with less screen time for Dean or Sam.
I do have a problem with no consistent, believable storylines for the supporting cast. (so, Cas went to heaven and will be betrayed - again - and Crowley is playing with Lucifer and will be double-crossed - again - and Rowena went where to do what?....oh, and Mary is sleeping with Ketch.)
I don't have a problem with which brother gets more action scenes or kills.
I do have a problem when (and yes, blahblahablah, I've heard and read the for/against this scene) Dean comes home dirty and smelly and is content to go out again in the same condition. I don't need 'that kind of humor' added in some lame attempt to be....what?......funny. To what age group, might I ask?
I don't care about Lucifer or his baby or his baby's momma or her keeper. I don't care about Toni or the BMOL's.
I want to care about Mary, but I don't.
I care about Cas and Crowley and Jodi and *sniff* Bobby and Rufus(sob) and Kevin and Benny.

I want anger and violence and action and suspense........not teenage drama.....sorry Sam, I just can't seem to care about your desire to work for (not with, for) the BMOL. Oh, and Dean, yeah you, hey buddy......yeah, take a memo.....when you swing a meat hook over your shoulder in a meat locker.....chances are it's gonna get stuck in a slab of frozen meat. But hey, in your younger years, you'd have known that..........OH! That was the last episode I saw.

So The CW.....while I've tuned out (and your ratings ('Cause it's Spring, I know) seem to be reflecting that more than just me are doing so) and am waiting for a rainy Sunday to catch up on the missed episodes that I have recorded ('Cause I'm not ready to give up on the brothers just yet completely), know that I'm on another network watching the reboot of Prison Break, all emotional because Lincoln will go to any lengths (bribery, war) to reunite with his brother, Michael, who knows, despite being dead and buried for 7 years, all he has to do is send a coded message from prison in a war-torn country to a convicted frenemy-pedophile and Lincoln will be right by his side.

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[–] Virile Manifestation of the Divine (1020) 7 years ago

I am bored, uninterested, disengaged and unconnected with the plot, storyline, characters, BMOL's and the overall timing and pacing of the entire season.[/quote]
You're definitely not alone on that boat. My tagline for this season (thank you Denese for coming up with it), is "at least the brothers look good" lmao.

[quote]So The CW.....while I've tuned out (and your ratings ('Cause it's Spring, I know) seem to be reflecting that more than just me are doing so) and am waiting for a rainy Sunday to catch up on the missed episodes that I have recorded ('Cause I'm not ready to give up on the brothers just yet completely)

We have a ratings thread about the CW and they're not doing well this season.
https://moviechat.org/movies/tt0460681/posts/58ef6a11926cc70011f609f0
At this point, I only care about "The Flash" and I'm glad it maintained its 1.00 last week. I need for the show not to be fractional on its season finale. That's all I ask. Oh, and for Dabb's dreadful season to get the ratings it deserves so he can be forced to take things seriously.

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