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arflexit's Replies
Okay, I can fully agree that Begins approaches surrealism more than TDK and Rises (I would say) is the actual 'spiritual' successor of Begins. I think I get your meaning better now; but in my analysis and understanding of realism vs surrealism Rises takes it to a whole new level of stretching acceptable realism that even Begins did not 'sink' to. some small elements of Begins can be defined as surreal; but not entire plot points that move the story forward like Rises has. Bruce traveling from the pit to Gotham with no money, no id, no resource, and no assistance (that we know of) in less than 23 days is impossible and begs to have an explanation for what makes it possible. The hallucinogenic compound of Begins, despite being somewhat surreal, got an explanation of its existence (it comes from a plant that grows in that area only); Rises didn't bother with doing any explanation of the impossible things that happened.
Oh yeah there is a history with this guy; he is a lunatic on this subject and he mass replies and bullies people that disagree with him. I have had PM's with 7 users that have informed me that he does this crap routinely. 7 different users; that is a sign this person is toxic.
With Leia in Rogue One I did not so much feel that she was 'sidelined' it was more shoehorned in and totally unnecessary. But IMO Leia was already so damaged by her being a failed incompetent Resistance General in TFA. In Rogue one it was a shoe horned cameo that basically neglected to explore anything else she was doing. Rogue One might have been better served if they would have just recast her and had more scenes of her actively doing things besides just standing and weirdly smiling while saying "HOPE!". I don't see it as 'damaging' to the character; just a badly done shoehorned in cameo.
I could be convinced otherwise though; because I already see a bit of what you mean about Leia not being more of an active element sort of makes it seem like her role in the Rebellion was insignificant going into ANH so I think I get what you mean.
Exactly; the scene on its own is freaking awesome but it was edited in terribly. and it needed to be cut a certain way that Vader doesn't specifically SEE the Tantive IV undocking and flying away. That is just a disaster of editing.
" It’s not like he teleported thousands of miles across an entire continent in a matter of hours with an invisible car that sprouted out of the ground."
He is complaining about Indy and Henry in Indiana Jones and the last crusade getting from Berlin to HAtay in a day; which they were not in Berlin and there is no proof that it was the next day. Also this nonsense about 'invisible car'. The last scene just showed Indy steal a car and in Europe in the 1930 there was 300 cars per 1000 people (and that does not include motorcycles) Indy could have easily acquired another car within 5 mile of their location give or take. The hypocrisy of moviechatuser497 claiming it is a plot hole in the last crusade but not in Dark Knight rises is the result of deluded fanaticism. I wouldn't start agreeing with such insanity.
I disagree with your claim that Begins is surreal to the same degree. To convince me you have to make a compelling argument. YOu have not; the hallucinagenic substance is not enough to qualify Begins as surreal; not in the same way that Bruce getting back to gotham in such a short time with no resources is at least. And you have not made a compelling argument to counter my claim either.
As for moviechatuser497 'counter argument' there is no indication that the village near the pit was populated. It looks deserted. Even if it wasn't, there is no guarantee anyone would help him let alone him be able to speak the language to ask for a ride to an embassy. and even if he did; he has no identification on him and no passport and no money to bypass the system and get documentation quickly. He would be at the embassy waiting for weeks to get a passport.
"knowing what has been established about his character that is within his abilities. "
one of the biggest enablers of his abilities was his unlimited wealth and reasources. HE NO LONGER HAD THOSE because stupidly Rises decided to 'up the stakes' by taking that all away from him. When before did Bruce get across the planet in less than a month with no resources. He was traveling for years in Begins; that leaves plenty of time for him to get from place to place without those resources. In Rises the time limit just makes it beyond acceptable realism. Hence why I call it an example of surreal.
Hypocrite! you bitched about me bringing Dark Knight rises into your B.S. Last Crusade post and now you do the same for my Dark Knight post. Get bent loser.
Yes; the only Star WArs that is really worth investing in is the OT; I will just pass on everything else. Which is why despite how much praise it is getting; I just have no interest in seeing the rest of the Mandalorian.
I have heard the EFAP and many other scene by scene analysis of Rise of Skywalker so I am pretty well aware of the obvious retconning it was doing. Such a disaster of a franchise. For each act of the 3 act structure to undermine then retcon what came before it is just an astounding epitome of writing failure.
Also another thing you can say of why Rogue one didn't bother me as much is I had already lost emotional investment in the franchise after TFA. In my view TFA was so utterly bad that my expectation where about as low as can be and I almost didn't even care to see Rogue One I reluctantly saw it after people kept praising it; I was like "meh, it was okay; but the franchise is still dead to me". I didn't even see TLJ for almost 2 years before someone finally got me to watch it on streaming. and truth be told I still have not seen solo or Rise of Skywalker. TFA just killed star wars for me. Now I will only watch the OT, and maybe revenge of the sith.
There is some truth to what you say about Rogue one having some internal inconsistencies; I will not deny that, but for me it is MORE important it does not have real deep inconsistencies with lore and mythos of the OT.
The Vader scene at the end of Rogue one is a editing nightmare. They did that so wrong from an editing stand point; Vader should have arrived before the 'heroes' died and the plans should have been "beamed' to the Tantive IV not hand passed. That was just stupid how they did that.
But I don't see that so much as a writing issue but an editing one. But the editing of Rogue one is atrocious; you can clearly see which parts were done after the fact by a different director. So bad on that front.
Fair enough; I am not going to really argue with anything here. I didn't like Rogue one enough to truly want to defend it; it was okay but for me it is more important it didn't actively insult the Themes (lore and mythos), continuity and characters the same way TFA did. So that is why it didn't bother me as much. but it is by no means a great or even good film. I think the writing holds up enough that it is mediocre (at times annoying) but not full out bad like TFA.
Well in my version all those things were removed. Also removed are the over showing of the Wampa in the cave and Vader getting on his shuttle in ESB; both of those things were terrible additions and screw with the pacing of each scene.
I also took out the rocks in front of R2 D2 in ANH and restored the original sound of that scene so you hear the Krate dragon roar instead of the weird techno sound. I also removed as much of the extra CGI background creatures as I could as it was just crap that cluttered up the screen unnecessarily. With the exception of the Mos Eisley arrival scene, the "these aren't the droids you're looking for" scene I was just not able to find a good way to slice it without seriously downgrading the video/color quality.
Also the entirety of the Jampa's Palace and Sarlac scene in ROTJ are restored to the original but with the blu ray quality; for example no showing the rancor pit when the dancer is down there (completely unnecessary) and no stupid CGI beak on the Sarlac.
Oh I also restored the original Anakin Ghost, cut out the montage of showing planets celebrating but kept the special edition victory celebration instead of Yub-Nub song which I don't like.
I am quite pleased with my customized version.
It was not so bad; altogether it took me about 10 hours stretched over a month 30 minutes at a time here or there. I wish I could fix up the Mos Eisley scene (I was able to fix the Han vs Greedo scene and removed the Jabba Scene but kept the blu ray visual quality). It is not 100% where I want it to be but 'good enough'.
"Besides, I like a lot of the changes Lucas made"
Really, that puts you in a very small minority; most people despised the changes. There are a few I am okay with; such as the graphic touch up (like the Falcon taking off the first time or the Death Star battle touched up with CGI) these I am okay with because the theatrical version does look a bit dated so the touched up graphics I think are 'good'. But what changes did Lucas make that you liked?
yeah that is about a fair score a 3/5. Is about right; if I am being really generous I might say 3.5/5. It is definitely overrated and many 'fans' are way too forgiving and complete ignore the flaws; and also argue against criticism with sophistry and insults, which is annoying (much like The Force Awakens defenders).
"In conclusion"
I can see how TFA was more entertaining but it is also more insulting. Jyn might be a bit of a bland bore of a character but she is not spotlight stealing, annoyingly good at everything, the focus of attention, immediately loved/revered by everyone, and most importantly she does not break the continuity and lore of the force (unlike Rey who is not only bland and lacking in personality and development but also guilty of all the above).
Neither is great; but Rey is IMO the worst written character for any big budget film of all time; yes worse than characters like Dominic Torrito from Fast and Furious. There is not one quality of the character I think is redeeming.
I can agree that Rogue one was poor on the characterizations and editing. The action was a bit generic but competent.
I don't agree at all that TFA action was better. It was modern generic action choreography the same as Rogue one was only IMO it had worse cinematography. TFA had better editing but was worse on the pacing.
Princess Leia is an after thought in Rogue one, it neither enhances or distracts her character, certainly not in the same way Han, Leia and Luke are all basically bitch slapped in TFA/TLJ.
I agree that the 'point' of Rogue one is unnecessary; there was no need to explain the reason for the port hole, it was never a plot hole. "Exhaust Port" is self explanatory. However their is a story to be told on how the spies got the plans themselves. Which Rogue One does effectively; and ballsy too, to kill all the main characters like that, Star Wars has never done something like that before or since.
I agree on the choreography of TFA's lightsaber battle it is gritty and raw unlike the 'dancing' of the prequels. Despite the outcome of the battle, which was stupid, the fight between Kylo and Rey was well done and they even managed to frame it so you can't tell how awkward Ridley is with choreography and timing (unlike TLJ which put it on full display).
Yeah, it is by no means a great film (and not even really a good film). It is 'passable' but IMO it is not directly insulting to the Originals.
"But you don't know what other options Bruce had. You assume he had none"
No the film specifically goes out of the way to show that Bruce no longer had resources. Were you not watching the same film. He pushed away Alfred, he was broken, he lost all his money, he was removed from Wayne enterprises, Gordon didn't know his real identity, and Fox and Blake were occupied. What options did he have available? If you can't come up with one either, then it is not an assumption.
" It is an ignorant jump in logic"
drop the condescending bullshit non argument. It is pissing me off.
"There's no such thing as a bad trip that is that focused and that guaranteed"
it stretches realism; just like the cape material he uses stretches realism it doesn't break it; at least as far as I am concerned. It is okay to stretch realism but you should cross the line; rises does.
"You're grasping at straws here."
Can you make a single paragraph with a condescending comment; jesus.
"Both films had the same level of limited surrealism."
I disagree; if you only proof of this is Begins had the weaponized hallucinogenic compound; I think you are wrong. It stretches realism; it doesn't cross into surreal. What other elements of Begins do you have to support your claim it is 'as surreal' as Rises?
"What happened is TDK refrained from the surrealism present in Begins"
I agree that TDK holds the line of 'Realism' a bit better, except the visualized Sonar system that he uses at the end; the tech really, really stretches realism and I might concede that it enters into surrealism. But still not as obviously as Rises does.
"have delved so deep in your argument against Rises"
You have not made a convincing argument (mostly just condescension and non-arguments) to contest my argument; that is not me being deep in my argument; that is you not being convincing.
"you stubbornly refuse to accept that the surrealism was present in Begins"
Claiming I am being stubborn is an ad homenim.
"None of that describes surrealism. Those details are left out of films all the time, and none of them become surreal for it."
Surrealism is anything that breaks from the 'effort' at maintaining realism. Begins and Dark Knight maintained this realism; there are no missing details based in realism that can fill in the gap of how he got back in such a short time with no id, no resource, no help and no money; therefor it violated that 'theme' of realism and entered into surrealism. What detail can be filled in to answer how it could have been done in a realistic way? The film just made too many limitations for him to overcome in such a short time realistically.
"You assume he had no help because the movie didn't hand-feed it to you."
Who helped him than? The film specifically shows he alignated all his 'allies' and reasource. The "hand-feed" comment is condescending as hell; and is a fallacy. You can't just say when asked "how was it done" that "the filmmakers didn't spoon feed it to you" that is a cop out not an argument. Answer who it was done realistically or drop the condescending bullshit. Pisses me off when I see crap like that.
"That is an ignorant jump in logic."
well okay, can't answer so you rely on ad hominems. and yet condescendingly you try to suggest I am dumb for 'not getting it' and making "ignorant jumps in logic" all non arguments.
This is bullshit; early voting should not be allowed until the running mate is picked. Based on the man's rapidly decreasing faculties it is very likely this VP could be president before the 4 years is up (assuming Trump loses). When you vote on the Ballot you vote for President and VP (example Trump/Pence). Not fucking: Biden/TBD. This is horseshit. The Democrats and Biden deserve to lose just because of how fucked up their whole system is right now (look at their primaries voting counting if you need anymore proof of that). They can't run on: "orange man bad" alone even though the media is assisting them with that at a million percent.
So I just finished watching my custom cut of this film (in 4k). What I did was edit it so that the beginning up until the "Say that's a nice Bike" scene is the 4K Theatrical then it switches to 4K extended until the scene were Dyson drops the prototype cpu on the bomb trigger which than switches back to 4k Theatrical. This is now my preferred version of this film; it was freaking awesome.