MovieChat Forums > kabukiarmadillo

kabukiarmadillo (832)


Won't bother with it... Is this a prequel to the Saw movies? An okay time waster but nothing extraordinary Ruined the first one for us Quickly loses its way in S2 (spoilers) Enjoyed this as an epilogue to the series but wish... Another meh Stephen King movie Just watched on Netflix... strong start, weak ending Good enough for what it was... only minor quibbles Challenge to budding scriptwriters... View all posts >


In the above model, the Terminator v0.0 retains the memories of his original future v0.0. He's now an orphan in this new timeline v1.0 moving forward to a future he can guess at but never really be sure comes to pass. The Looper model is rather complex, but essentially any changes in the past ripple up and down the timeline so as to keep it all consistent. Simplified version: Skynet in 2029 decides to send a Terminator back into the past with advanced microchips to create itself sooner. Terminator succeeds. There is only one time line. The Terminator now has memories of a different future in which Skynet was created in 1995. The Terminator is now in the present for some other mission created for it by the new Skynet of 1995. No one anywhere is aware that reality has been changed since everyone's memories are instantly overwritten to reflect this new reality. This model is complex because any changes can't be so dramatic as to "break" the internal consistency. I'm not even sure it works... the original Looper ended with some loose strings that weren't explained in the interests of a better story. It's probably the reason, I've never come across such a model in any serious physics articles that I've read. (I'm a physicist, but not an astrophysicist which is what this stuff is about...) Parallel timelines is one of only three time travel models that 'work' so as not to produce paradoxes. The other is based on the concept of the light cone. Another model is the Looper model which AFAIK is unique to Hollywood scriptwriters. Anyway the first move isn't a closed loop. Each feedback produces a new timeline that differs very slightly from the previous one. I don't have the time to break it down but a simplified version: The minute that the T800 from future v0.0 traveled back to 1984, he erased the future he came from and started a new one -- future v1.0. It's just that the new one so closely resembles the previous one that they would be impossible to tell apart... the differences might exist just at the molecular level. For example, in arriving he displaced a certain number of air molecules, raised the temperature of the surrounding air a little bit, etc. (I'm neglecting a discussion of the Butterfly Effect here to keep it simple.) The Kyle Reese that arrives after him, IS NOT the same Kyle Reese v0.0 from the original 2029. He's the Kyle Reese v1.0 from the new future created by the arrival of the T800. Any differences between him and the original Kyle Reese -- the one we never see -- are probably so minute as to make them indistinguishable. Here is where the logic of the first movie breaks down... Skynet v0.0 can't change its own past. It can only create an alternate Skynet v1.0 in another timeline that it will never know of, or experience. As far as Skynet v0.0 is concerned it sent a Terminator into the past that never returned. Nothing changes. Hence, the whole idea behind the mission is flawed. As far as Skynet v1.0 is concerned, the history books show that a mysterious machine showed up one day in 1984, full of strange microchips that were reverse engineered by humans to create a supercomputer that became sentient in 1997. (No understanding of physics required here... you can flowchart this out for yourself on a piece of paper.) Miller's quote: “Sarah changed the past, which changed the future. So that future where John was the leader of humanity no longer happens. He’s just this man who has missed his moment in history. What are you going to do? Is he going to be an accountant? Is he going to be working in a bank? “Any of those is unsatisfying when his real destiny was to be this super soldier who leads humanity. So all those reasons led us to do what we did.” It wasn't destroyed. It never came into existence as that future was successfully erased by the events at the end of T2. So where are the T800s coming from that arrive to kill John Connor? More explanation here... It would have to so since the new Terminator model comes from a different AI that arises in the new timeline they are on. You can't logically have one now deleted timeline intersecting with the actual timeline. I'm not an expert in the Hollywood Rules of Time Travel though. My bad... yes, he physically doesn't appear as an older man til T2. My original point still stands. I've read articles attributing the idea to both Miller and Cameron. Miller has said that he figured Connor's character was done since he was no longer humanity's savior. The events of T2 meant that Skynet never comes into existance. Audiences wouldn't want to see him as (paraphrasing as best I remember) an accountant or something else so mundane. Miller's explanation is illogical. If T2 changed events so that Skynet no longer existed (Miller's explanation, not mine) in the future why were T-800s still arriving? Who was sending them? (I haven't seen the movie, this is the argument put forth by some on line reviews). Plus, who sez Connor has to live out an ordinary life? Considering what he's gone through and where he came from, I don't see that happening at all. He could never be 100% sure that Skynet wouldn't become a fact and would likely become a trained warrior just as his mother did to stay ever on guard. The fact that Miller couldn't envision a way to use Connor says a lot about his lack of imagination and understanding of these characters. There were reports that the two butted heads about the story. My guess is that Connor's death was the result of Miller's insistence for my reasons above, and that Cameron agreed... either begrudgingly, or because the studio over rode him. (If it truly was Cameron's idea then he has completely lost his bona fides as the creative force behind this series...) It's all speculation on my part. Whoever came up with the idea as filmed... it was dumb and likely cost them fans. Ironically, you're own reply contains the answer to what they could have done with the character. As you mentioned, Connor starts off T2 as an annoying teen who really doesn't want to assume responsibility for his eventual fate. In this movie, we should have seen Connor's evolution into the battle-hardened vet that we see in T1 and T: Salvation. I've always thought that The Empire Strikes Back would have been a much better movie if they had killed Luke right away on Hoth in the opening minutes... said no one ever. Yeah, totally disagree with you. John Connor's presence was what made the first two movies work. In the first one we only see a glimpse of him, but Kyle Reese's admiration and loyalty to him was the driving force behind his determination to overcome his opponent. Reese's death was so hard because you understood Connor's sacrifice even if he wasn't present. The heart and soul of T2 was the three way relationship between Sarah, John and the T800. This line from the movie said it all: "Watching John with the machine, it was suddenly so clear. The terminator, would never stop. It would never leave him, and it would never hurt him, never shout at him, or get drunk and hit him, or say it was too busy to spend time with him. It would always be there. And it would die, to protect him. Of all the would-be fathers who came and went over the years, this thing, this machine, was the only one who measured up. In an insane world, it was the sanest choice." If it wasn't for that three way relationship T2 would be only remembered like a Michael Bay movie... you enjoy all the 'sposions' while you're watching it, but forget it within 48 hours. When I read that they killed off Connor within the first few minutes of the movie I lost all interest in seeing it. If they were determined to kill off the character, they should have given his death some meaning. I think fans might have accepted that. Stupid call on Miller's part. My guess is he was a bit full of himself, and decided he was going to do it this way to fully separate himself from Cameron's story. A kind of F U to Cameron... Totally agree. That opening DUM-DUM-DUM-DA-DUM is iconic. I have a full 30 minute playlist of the theme done in various tempos, different instruments and in different styles as one of my workout soundtracks. This guy does an acoustic guitar version that slows it down, giving it a mournful feel. When I heard this version I thought it would make an excellent track for a Western. [url][/url] I didn't pay to see GeneSys theatrically when it came out based strictly on those godawful trailers and the terrible casting choices, and I won't go see Dark Fate except maybe on VOD based on what they did with the character of John Connor. I'm going with hellofaplanet on this one... It had flaws but Salvation had the best chance of ensuring the long term success of the franchise. Thumbs up to this. I hope some producer types are paying attention... A few of their movies are truly suspenseful, but I've never found any of them scary. View all replies >