1. I wish they didn't make it into a race thing. I don't know if I am the only one, but it's getting tiresome (and I say this as someone who just watched and greatly appreciated Them).
2. Elaine from Seinfeld part of Marvel now! Who'd have thunk it... ๐
3. What's in the suitcase from Wakanda?
Everything is woke now.. It is America's dominant religion...
shareYep.I can't turn on a tv show now a days without identity politics being shoehorned into the plot somehow.Tv shows used to be entertaining.Now their just podiums for SJWs.
shareIt's a sad and disgusting trend, no doubt.
shareThe race thing isnโt so bad in FATWS. Racism exists to an extent in any time, and thereโs even room left for an interpretation on the old man that heโs just bitter.
They can touch on racism without being woke (fight racism with more racism), and I think they achieved that here. Considering the main character is black they couldโve crammed it in every minute of every episode, but they didnโt.
It's been like that for 60 years at least. They just used to be more subtle about it.
shareNever fast forwarded an episode of this previously. The first twenty minutes were fine but the all that shit on the boat bored me to tears. Also the Julia Louis-Dreyfuss (her real name is almost as long as her character's) appearance was bad.
share
I wouldn't write off Julia Louis-Dreyfuss.
She's an Emmy winner for a reason. Comedic actors often have awesome dramatic chops (Robin Williams comes to mind), precisely because comedy is generally understood to be harder than straight drama.
I liked the approach they took to the issue of race. Like it or not, it's a real issue, and it would be more than a little bit silly if it wasn't addressed. However, rather than simply make some kind of blanket "racism!" statement, they have given us a number of characters, each with their own nuanced viewpoint. Isaiah expressed a belief that is very common among African-Americans. It would be pretty unrealistic if he didn't have those beliefs. That Sam has his own differing viewpoint is, in my opinion, a refreshing positive.
shareI didn't realize The Snap - or The Blip - only happened to one race. Or that The Flag Smashers - hey remember them, the villains - were fighting racism.
This show is hot garbage. It wants to be anti-American soooo bad, that it just outright ignores the wrongdoings of the actual villains; and heroes, because you know, Sam and Bucky are working with a terrorist in Zemo.
I don't get what your reply has to do with what I wrote, nor do I find any evidence that the show is anti-American. What I do sense is that you have a strong bias in place against it because it comes from Disney, and see everything through that skewed view.
The show is complex, like the real world. It isn't as simple as good guy vs. bad guy. Sam and Bucky are facing a number of problems and villains, and beyond them, there are no clear heroes.
The Flag Smashers are the primary villain. They are radicalized activists turned super-powered terrorists. No one is excusing their actions. They are portrayed realistically, unlike most comic book villains. In the real world, nearly no one views themselves as a villain, or evil. When we see the Flag Smashers, it would be silly if they sat around saying "how can we do some more evil shit? What can we burn for fun!" Watch The Crow if you want to see imbecilic, unrealistic characters like that. The people we call terrorists see themselves as freedom fighters, even if logic tells us otherwise. Look at Antifa, BLM or Al Qaeda, or any other such group. The people in those groups see themselves as the heroes, and even though they are doing awful things, there is always a grain of truth in why they fight.
Sam and Bucky are not "working with" Zemo in so much as they are using him to find the Flag Smashers. They know his fight is against super-powered beings, and he'll help them because their goals align in that regard. That's realistic. The American government routinely does that, as do many individuals. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, right? That doesn't make Bucky and Sam terrorists, it shows they are resourceful enough to get the job done, even when it takes unconventional methods to do it. Given the choice, what would you do? Let the Flag Smashers go unchecked, or recruit Zemo to lead you to them? Zemo gains nothing from this other than the satisfaction of seeing the Flag Smashers taken down, but heโd get that even if you donโt recruit him as long as you take them down. But if you donโt, and the Flag Smashers continue to smash flags, wellโ you and Zemo are both disappointed. I see it as akin to Clarice using Hannibal Lecter to help her find Buffalo Bill, though one could argue she did worse than Sam and Bucky, because she gave him something in return, and helped him be more comfortable in jail.
I'm with FilmBuff on this, 100%
The show is not about "wokeness." It's about the Falcon and the Winter Soldier as complex characters with real world issues. The Red Tails segregation and Tuskegee syphilis experiments were real. It's not a stretch to imagine Isaiah's super soldier testing as another such experiment.
Also, Sam directly confronted Isaiah about his bitterness, which is NOT what a "woke" show would do. A "woke" show would have Sam turn just as bitter, even shedding tears for his failure to be just as bitter.
Isaiah told Sam to reject the shield -- in a "woke" show, Sam would be shown kicking it into a storm drain or sewer pipe. Instead, the show takes the more complicated route of acknowledging Isaiah's very justified bitterness along with Sam's drive to do what he feels is right.
Just like Steve would've done.
To kuraorises's point about Zemo, I don't see why you keep treating it as some kind of team-up. Zemo's a villain. We get to see him do a lot of cool stuff, but that only makes him more dangerous; it doesn't redeem him. It's clear from the get-go that they're only using him to get to Karli. More importantly, we AGAIN see Zemo NOT get what he wants (to die and be done with it already). Bucky, and the Wakandans, didn't give him what he wanted ... because they're NOT "teaming up."
And the flag smashers ARE the villains, period. They're only given a legitimate gripe because it makes them more credibly dangerous (and a bit more interestingly sympathetic). In contrast, the Power Broker is after power and money, and will back off if threatened. The flag smashers will fight to the death (their own and everyone who gets in their way) because they credibly believe their cause is righteous. That just makes them more interesting and more of a threat. It does NOT redeem them. That's CLEARLY not the show's intent.
Bucky helped him break out of an international prison and Bucky and Sam are actively working with him, but sure, they're not "teaming up". Whatever you gotta tell yourself.
shareAnd I maintain what I posted in another thread: Bucky just passed a note.
That does NOT NOT NOT mean Bucky didn't help him break out, before you go there (like you did in the other thread) -- Bucky WAS his accomplice; I'm 100% with you on that.
I point out that detail because, I think, it implies Zemo could've gotten out whenever he wanted to. He stayed there because:
(A) he knew the Wakandans might do worse to him if he didn't remain in German prison, presumably protected by diplomatic concerns (now that Wakanda's trying to play nice with the rest of the planet), and
(B) he didn't have a motive until he learned about Nagel's serum and its recipients.
It's a matter of opinion, but I think it was made clear that they're NOT teammates when Bucky denied Zemo the release (of death) that Zemo so obviously wanted.
Just wish they hadn't tipped that bullets-falling-from-Bucky's-metal-hand shot in the previews. Then again, it wasn't THAT big a surprise.
I did like the little detail about Zemo taking the liberty of crossing his own name off Bucky's list.
"I don't get what your reply has to do with what I wrote, nor do I find any evidence that the show is anti-American. What I do sense is that you have a strong bias in place against it because it comes from Disney, and see everything through that skewed view."
That was actually the point of my post. No. One. Talks. About. The. Villains. All you want to focus on is racism, Walker, big bad government. The show's villains are pointless. They should have just made Walker the villain from the get-go. The Flag Smashers serve no narrative purpose. Every fucking article and review written about this show is about Walker, Bradley, or something the government from 80 years ago did. Nevermind the terrorists, we don't need to talk about that.
I've never said a God damned thing against Disney. I've criticized this show. But nice Strawman.
"The Flag Smashers are the primary villain."
HA! Like HELL they are.
"I see it as akin to Clarice using Hannibal Lecter to help her find Buffalo Bill, though one could argue she did worse than Sam and Bucky, because she gave him something in return, and helped him be more comfortable in jail."
WORSE, LOL?! Are you brain dead?bClarice didn't break Lecter out of prison. Bucky did, ya dingus. Yeah, it's so much worse making Lecter comfortable behind glass than breaking out a terrorist. Not a valid comparison. You didn't think that one through.
You're sitting here trying soooo hard to justify what Sam and Bucky are doing and I can practically guarantee you I know what side of the Civil War you were on. Please, please, tell me you were anti-Accords and trashed Stark for Ultron while you defend breaking a terrorist out of an international prison, so that I can just call you the hypocrite you are.
Come on kuato, the people are trying to help you get the point here buddy. You are free to disagree as well but if you consider even 1% of the alternate comments you might see the nuances of this interesting show.
Bottom line, itโs not woke at all, probably more in the opposite direction of most Marvel shows.
No one talks about the villains from this show, LOL! Just look at this board, if nothing else. Look at any article or review posts on Slash Film, IGN, whoever and all the comments that follow. Here's a handful of them for you:
https://collider.com/falcon-winter-soldier-episode-4-ending-explained-captain-america-shield/
https://www.ign.com/videos/falcon-and-winter-soldier-episode-4-the-real-reason-why-captain-america-is-a-bad-guy-now-mcu-canon-fodder
https://www.ign.com/videos/isaiah-bradley-the-vile-history-behind-marvels-forgotten-captain-america
https://www.ign.com/videos/falcon-and-winter-soldier-episode-2-why-the-mcu-hid-this-dark-secret-about-captain-america-mcu-canon-fodder
https://www.hindustantimes.com/entertainment/web-series/the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-ep-4-marvel-fans-furious-after-john-walker-taints-captain-america-s-legacy-101618041549021.html
https://screenrant.com/john-walker-captain-america-battlestar-death-comic-difference/
The focus about every single one of them is Walker, the U.S. government, or Bradley. And Bradley has barely been int he show. This show is NOT about racism. That aspect is maybe 1% of all the subplots and it DOMINATES the conversation.
And one of the few discussions around Morgantheau? "Is she a villain?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfiS4yBnuPU What a crock of shit and rubes like you are falling for it.
I wasn't creating any kind of strawman, I was merely guessing at the reason you seem so blind to the truth. If you truly believe what you write, try to explain why.
If the Flag Smashers are not the primary villain, who is? Their crimes have been a part of every episode thus far, as well as the reason Sam and Bucky are working together. There are subplots, as well there should be-- Sam's sister's fishing business, Bucky's nightmares and his quest to make up for his past behavior, Walker's descent from heroism to shame, and so on, but the main story that has propelled the plot, and lead to nearly all the major actions of the major characters, has been the desire to stop the Flag Smashers.
As for Zemo, consider his arc. He started as a prisoner in a German prison, and now he's on the way to the Raft. Best case, he ends up in the same German prison. More than likely, he ends up worse off than he was at the beginning. Lecter, meanwhile, got to learn juicy details about Clarice, was given books and other perks, and eventually used those perks to make his escape. Even if you don't attribute the escape to anything Clarice did, he was inarguably better off for having encountered her.
I don't know that I had a side in the Civil War film. It was told from Captain America's point-of-view, so the audience was meant to root for him, but I understood both sides. If pressed, I'd say that I thought both Steve and Tony had valid ideas, but the accords were too extreme. To me, the real Civil War came later, when Tony learned about his parents. More than anything, that was what made that film the masterpiece it is; the initial "kid's gloves" Civil War seemed to be the war, but the denouement lead to the real battle, when it was suddenly for keeps. That said, I see no hypocrisy. How does me being more pro-Cap than pro-Iron Man, and/or anti-Accords have anything to do with understanding why Bucky and Sam used Zemo to find the terrorists?
I thought the implication is Zemo remains at the raft indefinitely with Trish Walker (from Jessica Jones)
He's proven he can escape from the German prison, so he can't go back there.
The only other option is Wakandan justice (a brand like Klaue's would only be the start - their brand for regicide is probably a whole-body thing)
"I wasn't creating any kind of strawman"
No, that was definitely a Strawman. The epitome of it.
"If the Flag Smashers are not the primary villain, who is? "
The U.S. of course!
"but the accords were too extreme."
"How does me being more pro-Cap than pro-Iron Man, and/or anti-Accords have anything to do with understanding why Bucky and Sam used Zemo to find the terrorists?"
The Accords are "extreme" and you are openly defending Bucky and Sam breaking Zemo out of international prison. HA! My man, come on. This isn't just a crime, it's an act of war. They broke a mass murder out of prison in ANOTHER COUNTRY and not only do you defend it, you think heroes being asked to play by the rules and follow some semblance of law is "extreme", LOL! Get outta here. And I know your seemingly liberal ass wants to hold Walker accountable. That's fine. That's not the problem. He's unhinged and Russell is doing a great job with that. But you let the heroes you like get away with doing whatever they want. That is BLATANT hypocrisy.
You don't understand the concept of a a "strawman" if you think me speculating that your knee-jerk rage at anything Disney is perhaps based on a dislike of Disney itself. Alternate theory-- you're treating our discussion as a debate or argument, when I'm having a friendly back and forth to share our thoughts about the show.
Sam and Bucky represent the U.S., so declaring the U.S. to be the villain makes no sense. Apparently, to you, the U.S. is both hero and villain? If you feel that way, you're onto something, but it isn't a hero-villain dichotomy. This show is VERY good at pointing out nuances of opinion and behavior, and it can be easy to look at only the surface level and declare someone, or something, good or bad. But the villain is not the U.S., and I see zero reason anyone would think that. The Flag Smashers have clearly, definitively, and inarguably been painted as the villains from the get-go.
Your final paragraph doesn't make a lot of sense. My belief is that in a world with superheroes, the heroes do need to be held accountable, but not with anything as extreme as the Sokovia Accords from the Civil War film. That's an entirely different discussion than anything in this show.
Bucky and Sam didn't exactly break Zemo out, but they were instrumental in encouraging him to escape, but even if we dismiss that nuance, I don't see it as anywhere near as big a deal as you do. A very common trope in comic books, or hero stories in general, is one in which the hero uses unconventional, and often illegal, methods in order to do the right thing. Sometimes, the ends justify the means. So temporarily freeing a criminal in order to capture a band of criminals and save thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of lives, before returning that criminal to prison, is, in my mind, a completely justifiable trade-off.
Let's put this in a real world context. Imagine that a week before 9/11 you knew something was coming, but not what. All you knew was that Ramzi Yousef, the guy who bombed the World Trade Center in the โ90s, could lead you to the terrorists who were planning something, and he had some grudge against them, so you knew heโd help you. If you had the means to illegally free him long enough to lead you to Osama bin Laden in time to prevent 9/11, after which youโd deliver him back to his cell, would you do it? Does saving the lives of 2,977 people justify busting him out for a couple days? Iโd do it. Would you?
As for Walkerโ of course he should be held accountable for murdering someone. So should Sam, Bucky, or anyone who oversteps their boundaries like that. If Bucky had shot and killed Zemo, Iโd hope the Wakandans would be delivering him to the raft instead of the Baron.
"You don't understand the concept of a a "strawman" if you think me speculating that your knee-jerk rage at anything Disney is perhaps based on a dislike of Disney itself. "
Are you talking to yourself? Because I said I didn't like one Disney show and your reply was that I have "a strong Disney bias." That's literally a Strawman, bud.
[deleted]
I was going to write an actual reply to this because in terms of the show, I agree with you. But you're a racist. A stone cold racist. I had to look up the meaning of the term "mud shark" because I never heard it, but it's clear in the context you used it that it's a slur, and my looking it up confirmed it. You are an unabashed racist.
shareSo you literally ignored every single thing I wrote to focus on something that offended you, yet you complain that all Left-wing media ignored the villains of the show to focus on the things that you thought they shouldn't be focusing on?
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
No. FUCK YOU. Offended me? No, YOU were WRONG. This isn't about ME, it's about YOU. You called the kid who plays Mogantheau a racial slur. You don't get to turn this around on me. YOU are the one who is wrong here, ya POS.
shareOffense is a choice. You chose to take it.
You chose to be offended on behalf of someone you don't know.
You've clearly lost any semblance of rationality given your explosive attacks above against other posters trying to elucidate and enlighten you on concepts you clearly cannot or refuse to comprehend (though given your outbursts, I'm resigned to believe it's the former).
Regardless, facts aren't wrong. Nothing I said was wrong. Nothing I wrote was wrong.
You chose to interpret something as offensive because A) it either correlates directly with something you've experienced personally and this is why you chose to take offense, or B) because you align with the deliberately destructive worldviews held by Liberal Progressives.
In either case, you're extremely hostile, unnecessarily so.
You can continue to choose to be offended about the truths I wrote, and continue to use invectives, but it doesn't change the facts, nor does it detract from the arguments and explanations I put forward that caused you to behave like a stereotypical Leftist.
Mud shark is a racial slur. That's not a choice, ya dingus. That's a fact.
share2) The major cameo they were promoting turned into a major let down. She is completely wrong for that character.
share
Is she? To play some evil aristocrat?
If anything, I think Julia Louis-Dreyfus is rather perfect for this.
In the comics, Val is a high ranking SHIELD Agent and Nick Furyโs girlfriend. I donโt think she fits that
shareGary Shandling was a high ranking HYDRA operative, a US Senator, and by trade and craft a comedian. ๐
shareSuitcase from Wakanda's gotta be the red/white/blue Falcon outfit that's been leaked online.
Nothing else could explain Sam's reaction - dude almost started crying when he opened it.
Hopefully it's made of vibranium and won't get smashed up so easily.
Plus, Sam left the damaged wings with Joaquin Torres. He was offering to help Sam with repairs earlier in the series and he was the replacement Falcon in the comics when Sam took over as Captain America.
shareAgree with the 2 points. This episode was a major let down.
And if a 30 mins show gives me reasons to press FFWD then something is wrong with the show.
3. A suit, falcon or cpt A.
First, you're an idiot. Let's get that out of the way. Secondly, the show was an hour long today.
shareLook in the mirror buddy. The only idiot you'll see might be you.
The episode without intro and generic was something like 45 minutes long, to be precise. Same point stands: if a show that's this short to give me reasons to FFWD then something is wrong.
Plus: there are so many wrong things, like the flagsmashers are somehow the good guys while killing innocents, Cpt A is the bad guy for killing a guilty guy in a moment of rage. And somehow falcon and ws are justified with all the bullshit that they do, starting with "let's get the shield" from the first second and all the bullshit against the new cpt A. Plus: who gave them jurisdiction to seize and handle the shield?
And yeah, even the last moments of the us were pure anti-usa propaganda and pro-open immigration.
And fuck off.
Ladies first.
shareStick to Watching Chuck Norris movies.
shareYouโre not the only one. The race thing is obnoxious, but it's a massive turn-on for the Left so..... *shrug*
Iโm enjoying this series for the most part, but I suspected it was gonna be woke now that Endgame finished. Marvel Studios no longer cares about who they hire to write their scripts, they can take more risks with Leftist agendas, regardless of loss of viewership and profits.
The show seemed to be going in the right direction with the Flag-Smashers, but they've been portrayed as sympathetic antagonists with even Sam agreeing with their cause, just not their execution. We'll see how the last episode handles it, but otherwise I'm still enjoying it.