MovieChat Forums > Little (2019) Discussion > "That’s for white people, because black ...

"That’s for white people, because black people don’t have the time"


And yet it appears that white people don't have the time to obsess about race...

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And too busy working to pay taxes to support “EBT”.

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Most EBTers are white.

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When we swap racism for class hatred, we're not making much progress.

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Correcting a misinformed poster is a public service.

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Sure, but there should be no shame for benefit claimants whether they're black or white.

This 'benefits war' demeans all poor people.

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That's the ideal.

An ignorant statement should never go unchallenged. Perhaps you should directly address poster kellycallie who is spreading ignorance and racism on the board which is definitely against moviechat's user policy.

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I expect racists to hate benefit claimants.

I expect better from liberals and progressives.

You've heard of cognitive dissonance, right?

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You're assuming it's "cognitive dissonance" because I don't fit your definition aka: stereotype of a "liberal" or "progressive". Surprise! I never defined myself as such. Thanks for labeling me... not.

Once again, I don't allow bigoted comments to go.

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You're missing my point.

Whether you're a progressive or not, I don't expect class prejudice and snobbery from someone who, rightly, abhors racism.

It would be like seeing a staunch feminist talk demeaningly about homosexuals.

I expect bigotry from bigots. But I hope that anyone who, quite rightly, abhors racism also abhors sexism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and classism. It disappoints me when someone who I wholeheartedly agree with on one social issue turns out to be a reactionary on another social issue.

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Kellyanne may not be a racist as you assume but someone who legitimately believes most people on food stamps are black because she heard this misinformation her whole life. Silence just continues the ignorance. Now, she can question her belief system if she isn't a racist. Correcting someone who stereotypes isn't reactionary. It's educating them. BTW, I never criticized or judged anyone on it. Just stated a stat.

"And yet it appears that white people don't have the time to obsess about race... "
Talk about ignorant statements.

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You think I'm the bad guy here?

Fine, you were correcting a statement, but I can tell an implicitly racist statement when I see it, and kellycallie was being condescending towards black people.

My thing is 'don't condescend black or white people'. There's no need for it.

But sure, I stand by what I say about some, not all, black people being obsessed by race. How else to explain the "that's for white people, because black people don't have the time"?

I'm sorry if my response to racism is zero tolerance as opposed to 'you fight racism with racism.'

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""that's for white people, because black people don't have the time"?"
That sounds like a joke and you're too sensitive. Do you cry about "cultural appropriation" too?

White people were obsessed with race first by enslaving people based on color, stealing land based on color, instituting Jim Crow laws based on color, lynchings and Sundown towns based on color, the rise of white supremacist groups and an elected racist/supremacist in the White House who incites violence and institutes a racist agenda..., but you consider blacks to be the ones obsessed? Amazing!

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White people were obsessed with race first by enslaving people based on color, stealing land based on color, instituting Jim Crow laws based on color, lynchings and Sundown towns based on color, the rise of white supremacist groups and an elected racist/supremacist in the White House who incites violence and institutes a racist agenda
Yep, you're 100% right. That was all down to me.

Wow! You're really smart! How did you work it out?

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Just an observation. Whenever marginalized people don't complain about their maltreatment, it either continues or becomes much worst.

I don't believe a racist line would be in a present day movie trailer, but I plan to see "Little" within the next two weeks so I'll hear the line in context. A wild guess is the line refers to a black person having to work twice as hard to get half as far.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/why-black-workers-really-do-need-to-be-twice-as-good/409276/

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This is a gross generalisation, and for every useless white man I've encountered in a position far beyond his capabilities, I've genuinely met people of colour in positions far beyond their capabilities, and the truth is that it has often been other people of colour who first warned me about their incapabilities (I tend to treat every one with an open-mind when I first meet them).

Also, one can complain about racial injustice without demonising other groups.

People who demonise other groups aren't truly interest in change (you push people, guess what? They'll simply push back). They just want to grouse.

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You're missing my point completely. Unfortunately racism does exist. And sexism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, ageism, etc.

The reality is if you're discriminated against, then your capabilities may not mean crap if employers don't want to hire you because they don't like your "group". That's not generalization - but reality.

There have been people who have been very successful but because they belonged to the "wrong group", they ended up having everything taken from them including in some cases their lives because of bigotry. What do you know about sundown towns?

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by demonising other groups.

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Do Sundown Towns still exist? Do you think they affect the characters in this film? I know the main character goes back in time, so to speak, but I don't think she goes as far back as the 1960s.

Besides, I'm not even denying that racism and sexism, and other 'isms' affect people today. Of course they, sadly, do. I fully acknowledge the unfortunate and unjust existence of white privilege and male privilege, among other sorts of privilege, but when you also cite homophobia, anti-Semitism, ageism, and so on, you, quite rightly, hit on the fact that no one form of bigotry occurs in isolation. It's intersectional, and also depends on context and circumstance, and the existence of homophobia, anti-Semitism, ageism, classism, ableism and so on, may also entail situations where a white man faces bigotry on account of his identity.

Admittedly, I'm probably making too much of what I suspect is a throwaway line, but I've laughed at jokes making digs at white people before. The reason why I criticise this one is that I don't feel it lands.

Maybe from some black perspectives white people have 'more time' than they do, but is that really a trope or common wisdom? Like I say, I've heard just as many, racist, tropes that stereotype black people as lazy and feckless. For what it's worth, I think both assumptions are not merely wrong and offensive, but entirely baseless and absurd even as intentionally offensive stereotypes. It would be like saying "why are all gay people so short?", or "why are red-headed people such bad drivers?" It's a complete non-sequitur.

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I would like to see those numbers K. You have one week.

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6 days left, you better get to researching.

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A sws circlejerk is brewing

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There's nothing I hate more than white supremacy, but tell me why it's okay to write lines like "That's for white people, because black people don't have the time"?

Sure, because white people are spending time supping Martinis on their loungers all day, right?

Toxic stereotypes about laziness and idleness exist on all sides, many regarding black people. I don't utilise or excuse such hatred towards black people, so I'm not sure why it's so acceptable for a mainstream film to push such sentiments towards white people. White privilege, whether it exists or not, shouldn't justify such rudeness and racial bigotry.

We're now getting to stage where some people feel emboldened to say hateful things because of the mainstream media narrative telling them how awful certain groups of people are, and how their victimisations justifies rudeness.

Instead we should be pushing a narrative that says all forms of racial and gender-based bigotry are unacceptable.

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I just saw the moive, as a white guy, and the theatre was packed and mixed.

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How did they respond to the 'white people have more time than us' joke?

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OMG. Yet here you are obsessing about race. Are you a whiner? I haven’t seen the movie but it seems to mean that they don’t have time because they have to work more to make ends meet.

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Uh-huh.

I know plenty of white people who work all hours to make ends meet. I know black people who sit on their backsides all day. So this contention is a complete fallacy, and before you say I'm 'overreacting', imagine if the line had been '"That’s for black people, because white people don’t have the time."

And don't give me the whole 'it's okay because of white privilege/punching up' excuse. That type of dialogue is not going to heal racial divisions. It's just going to piss people off. And life is already hard enough for everyone without creating more unnecessary divisions.

We should be aiming for equality. Not exceptionalism and/or supremacy, which is what that line is about. If you tout such exceptionalism then don't be surprised if others, sadly, start doing the same. And yeah, I know the latter already happens, and has been happening for centuries, but fortunately we no longer put it in the movies (Gone with the Wind was eighty years ago). If we did, there would be, rightful, outrage.

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Got it. You’re a whiner.

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Cool.

I guess anyone else who complains about race must be a 'whiner' too.

Or maybe you're just one of these small-minded Kool Aid drinking people who aren't able to think for themselves and simply accept whatever narrative they're sold, or believe they're supposed to lap up.

Sorry, I can't do that. I abhor racism, but I also have a brain and possess critical faculties, which means that I also possess a sense of what is right and what is wrong, whatever narrative it supposedly serves.

Yes, racism towards black people is manifestly far worse than anything white people endure, but that still doesn't make lines like the one I have highlighted remotely right. Anyone who actually had a brain, and used it, would understand that, rather than shrugging their shoulders and thinking 'yeah, but racism...' It may sound glib, but it's true: two wrongs do not make a right. And by calling me a 'whiner' you're simply exposing your utter inability to reason. You're just exposing yourself to be a brainless yes-person who avoids awkward questions.

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By the way, by implying that white people should suck up and take such lines, you're actually exposing yourself as a racist, towards black people.

You're implying that white people have broad enough shoulders or are sophisticated enough to take such insults, in contrast to black people. In other words, you're elevating white people and infantilising black people, instead of saying, as I do, that beneath our skin, we're all essentially the same, and that none of us like to be insulted, and thus all of us are within our rights to complain.

Then again, with all due respect, I don't get the impression you're very intelligent and that you've properly thought this through. You just drink the Kool Aid that tells you 'white people/men/straight people have been powerful for so long, and so they deserve to be sources of mockery', rather than using your brain, as I do, and thinking that if we give a pass for attacks on 'people of privilege', we're (wrongly IMHO) implying that those 'people of privilege' are thicker-skinned or more sophisticated than historically oppressed groups.

Anyway, I'm sincerely sorry if my capacity for intellectualism, rational thought and complexity, is too much for your simplistic mind.

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Blah blah blah. I can’t even get through your whining.
Why don’t you get a life?

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Says the person needlessly responding to and whining about my posts...

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Yeahg..I loved it, as I mentioned in last night's post. Pretty good. I thought it would end like that one FLINTSTONES one, where Pebbles and Bamm Bamm sing, or Disney's cartoon of ALICE IN WONDERLAND, that [spoiler]it's just a dream[/spoiler]


Isn't a dream she was having()?) though..Veyr great flick all the same,

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The most annoying part about this is, it doesn't make sense.

I do enjoy the odd dig at white people and men and other privileged groups as much as anyone, when they make sense and are actually targeting real traits, but is this a real grievance?

I've heard of 'n-word time', or 'Jamaican time', which strike me as extremely offensive, by the way, but do go to show that there is a (misguided) perception that black people have more time than whites. I disagree with that contention too, but since that, admittedly offensive, trope already exists, this line make zero sense. It just sounds like another lazy 'insert white people here - guaranteed laugh' line as opposed to something that is genuinely witty.

If you're going to excoriate white people, make sure the joke lands. 'This is white people shit' style lines, of the type Chris Tucker used to lazily trot out, back when he was a thing for a brief period in the late 90s, is poor screenwriting.

So, really my issue with the line isn't so much that it lampoons white people (there are plenty of good reasons to lampoon white people); it's that it does it in a lazy, meaningless way that arguably dilutes genuinely smart and witty asides about white privilege.

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Malko, you may be interested in the following. Not my “cup of tea” due to every other word is the f-bomb, but the context is understandable whether you agree with it or not.

https://genius.com/Chris-rock-niggas-vs-black-people-annotated

Bigotry from people of color occurs more often than we think, not only against whites, but also against other people of color. Another case in point:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2019/04/10/candace-owens-fumes-after-ted-lieu-plays-clip-her-remarks-hitler/3420977002/

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The 'n' word is vile, whoever is using it. Clearly it's infinitely worse when it comes out of the mouths of the descendants of the former 'masters', the whites, but it's still an ugly, hateful word even when Chris Rock uses it.

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I’m from the South and the “n” word makes me cringe. But, the North didn’t treat the Freemen much better after Emancipation. In fact in some instances Blacks were treated worse. Why does Chris Rock, et al, demean themselves by the use of it?

I don’t understand how a perfectly innocent word, Negro (Negroid) can be twisted into such a vile slur. Afterwords the legitimate word cannot be used out of fear. The word nationalist has also been corrupted.

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Some black people started using the N-word to remove the sting out of it, but realistically that failed and therefore needs to stop being used by everyone including blacks. Blacks were treated worst in the South, but the North is racist too.

You're confusing being patriotic with nationalist. A patriotic person is positive and just means you're proud of your country. Nationalist involves hatred and looking down upon foreign countries and governments, xenophobia, hating, attacking and scapegoating immigrants, etc. Not the same at all.

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I beg to differ. Patriotism and Nationalism are one and the same; “loyalty and devotion to a nation”. Love of country, believing that country is sovereign is being a nationalist to which I subscribe. This is what I was referring to...taking an innocuous word and twisting it into something evil. It does not have to involve “hatred and looking down upon foreign countries and governments, xenophobia, hating, attacking and scapegoating immigrants, etc.”

Believing one’s country is the greatest country doesn’t equate with “looking down upon foreign countries...”. There’s nothing wrong with preferring our form of government over others. The United States of America was born and through trial and error (lots of errors!) has grown into a nation where so many people wish to be a part of. I don’t see where immigrants are scapegoated. If you are referring to the illegals who are storming our borders over those who have applied legally and waiting patiently, that’s another matter.

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Nevertheless the connotation for the two words have changed. Hitler was a nationalist - not a patriot. Eisenhower was a patriot - not a nationalist.

"It does not have to involve “hatred..."
But nationalism does involve hatred and/and feelings of superiority.

If you are talking about pride in country without hating others or feeling that they should be subjugated then it's just patriotism.

" I don’t see where immigrants are scapegoated."
You're in denial. Scapegoating is calling Mexican immigrants rapists, saying they are stealing American jobs, they are criminals, on welfare, etc. is scapegoating.

A good article about the difference:
https://www.thestreet.com/politics/what-is-nationalism-14642847

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I reiterate being a nationalist does not have to involve hatred. Hitler wasn’t a nationalist...he was a psychopathic maniac. He was an ethno-nationalist and became a raving lunatic with love of self.

“American nationalism or United States nationalism is a form of civic nationalism found in the United States. Essentially, it indicates the aspects that characterize and distinguish the United States as an autonomous political community.”

You heard what you wanted to hear. Not all ‘illegal” Mexicans were called rapists. You omitted the word illegal. They are not immigrants if they are illegals. It doesn’t matter how many times you transpose illegal and immigrant it doesn’t change what is. BTW, they do take jobs and bring down the wage scale. They use to have a Green Card which permitted them to come into our country legally, pick our crops, send their money home, then return home. Now they are the framers, roofers, the plumbers, etc. with a much lower pay grade.

Apparently you don’t realize illegals receive more benefits than our American citizens. All needs are met from food to housing to healthcare to education, etc. More than my grandkids received. I once told my grandson when he was having a difficult time acquiring a college loan to renounce his U.S. citizenship, become a citizen of Mexico or Central America, then cross back over illegally....all needs will be handed to him!

Not all Mexicans are criminals, but many are walking over the border illegally over and over. Human traffickers, gang members...we now have MS-13 gangs in every state, cartel members, etc. When a country permits those who have entered illegally to stay, not able to vet these people, some very bad sorts are walking our streets. Ask the Gold Star families how they feel about illegals after they’ve lost a loved one to murder by an illegal.

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“When tyranny comes to the United States, she will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a bible.”
--Gore Vidal

You act as if Hitler ran Nazi Germany by himself. Hitler had popular support and help from the masses and his government officials who supported and followed his beliefs about nationalism, racial purity, genocide, world domination, etc. You're delusional if you believe that millions of Germans were "psychopathic maniacs." How about Hitler and his supporters were hateful bigots who stereotyped and scapegoated people who they deemed inferior.

Interestingly, Trump is using some of the same techniques that Hitler used. Trump's "Fake news" is Hitler's "Lügenpresse" or lying press. Trump's remarks of deported immigrants, "‘These Aren’t People. These Are Animals." with Hitler's dehumanizing remarks about Jews. Trump's reference to neo-Nazis as being fine people.

Trump quote:
"“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

That quote is about legal Mexican immigrants.

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“Trump's reference to neo-Nazis as being fine people.” Not true! “There are fine people on both sides.” He has talked against neo-nazis. Frankly I’m sick of the NAZI moniker being thrown at Trump and his supporters!

IMO, the new Brown Shirts are the ATIFA thugs. They may not be burning books, but they definitely are shutting down free speech from conservatives.

The Fake News he harps about is another truth; evidence being the Mueller Report. Egg on the faces at CNN, the shameful prevaricators on MSNBC, etc.

The quote is not about “legal Mexican immigrants. From a liberal news source:

https://www.salon.com/2015/12/21/the_media_needs_to_stop_telling_this_lie_about_donald_trump_im_a_sanders_supporter_and_value_honesty/

He has every right to shout Fake News! Words taken out of context, words misconstrued, words demonized, innocuous words twisted to become evil.

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"Jews will not replace us!" chanted by white nationalists and neo-Nazis who Trump described as fine people:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n12sjwk9FBE
Is that what you're defending?

There are no fine neo-Nazis, white nationalists or white supremacists. Period. All the same hateful pieces of filth who were there to promote their bigotry.

"Heil Trump!" and Nazi salutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o6-bi3jlxk&t=36s
This is what you're defending?

White supremacists "rebranding" themselves by wearing suits instead of robes and calling themselves "nationalists" instead of KKK is still the same hate-mongering garbage.

Do you have a link to the Mueller Report or are you stupid and think a three page biased compilation from Trump's hired lackey is the same thing?

If there is nothing to hide, then Barr would provide the FULL report to Congress. If there is nothing to hide, then Trump would release his taxes like every other politician has done.

You mean shutting down hate speech which incites people to violence like entering religious institutions and killing people. That guy who killed Jews in a temple a few months ago was inspired by Trump's hate speech about immigrants. And the guy who killed people in a Mosque was inspired by Trump also.

Trump thanks you for allowing him to change the tax laws that gave him and other golf course owners a huge tax break. He also thanks you for allowing him to change the estate laws in order for him to transfer millions of dollars untaxed to his children. Don't' worry! While the rich get richer, the middle class and working class can become poorer and pay the difference. I'm going to assume your salary tripled by now under Trump and you're living in the lap of luxury.

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This will be my last reply to someone so filled with hate due to having the malady known as “Trump Derangement Syndrome” Cherry picking words out of context to make a point belies the facts. His father was not a KKK member. As per Snopes the purveyor of sorting facts from fiction.

“What's True
A 1927 New York Times article named Fred Trump among the individuals arrested after a "near-riot" involving the KKK and New York City policemen at a "Memorial parade."

What's False
The article did not document that Fred Trump was a KKK member or supporter, or that he was charged with a crime in connection with the KKK event.”

Again as per the link to Salon’s liberal magazine, Trump did not say “white supremists and neo-nazis have some fine people”. Trump denounced neo-nazis and white supremists. Cherry picking words again in order to spread falsehoods.

“Trump's words on Mexicans have been misconstrued by all sides. This liberal, Puerto Rican professor says enough”

As deplorable the “Jews will not replace us” which was shouted by the lowest forms of human beings, it grieves me to say hate speech in this form is not illegal. No, I’m not defending such speech...I would hang my head in shame if I had been there.

The thugs of ANTIFA aren’t shutting down hate speech; they are quieting conservative speakers invited to speak at universities.

The Mueller report will be released Thursday. By law Barr has to redact certain events. Mueller and team were part of the redaction process. The left (collusion delusion members) will never be satisfied and will turn on Mueller if the report does exonerate Trump.

The piece of crap who murdered innocent people in a synogogue was not a Trump supporter. You don’t know if the Mosque murderer was a Trump fan. You assume without facts every alt-winger is a....here comes that word again....NAZI Trump supporter.

Thanks Pres.Trump for the tax laws which gave everyone tax relief. There shouldn’t be Estate tax burdens




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"...hate ..."
You're the one defending neo-Nazis and white supremacists chanting Nazi slogans. I notice you didn't comment on the "Jews will not replace us" chant from your nationalist pals.

"“Trump Derangement Syndrome” "Fake news"
A demonstration of your full indoctrination by mindlessly repeating your cult's catchphrases.

The article I'm referring to was in the Brooklyn Eagle - not NY Times. Fred Trump was arrested and released on $500 bail. The KKK protest according to their KKK flyer advertised the march which was against Irish immigrants and Catholics. In 1927 NYC, most cops were Irish Catholics. A Long Island newspaper said all the men who were arrested wore robes.

The KKK would've never received permission to march in the Memorial Parade. When the cops told them to leave the parade, they refused including Fred Trump. The other arrested men who were charged had assaulted the police.

Nevertheless, Fred and Donald Trump proved they're racists by refusing to rent apartments to blacks and Hispanics in which the Federal government sued them and they had to pay a fine.

The murderer was repeating Trump's anti-immigrant rhetoric almost word for word and killed the Jews in the Synagogue because there was a group located inside that helped immigrants resettle.

The Mosque killer already said publicly he admired Trump and that filth who killed people in a black church.

In order to pay for the lack of Estate taxes, Trump will diminish Social Security and Medicare. The money needs to come from somewhere. Continue to not support your own best interests.

Continue to support Trump who hires illegal immigrants which you claim to be against which makes the both of you hypocrites.

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Edit: After further research I located the true statements made by Trump after the horrific deed done by a piece of caca. Egg on my face! When he said in so many words “There are fine people on both sides.”, he wasn’t referring to white nationalists. My error! He denigrated both....white nationalist and neo-nazis as per the following:

Here’s what Trump actually said:

“You had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people—on both sides—you had people in that group—excuse me. Excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue, and the re-naming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”

Amazingly, everyone rushing to denounce Trump for his remarks they didn’t read or hear missed the whole part where Trump said, “the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists…should be condemned totally.”

“You’re changing history. You’re changing culture, and you had people—and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, OK? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly.”




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I know what his racist quote was and who it was directed. I repeat, there are no fine neo-Nazis, white supremacists aka white nationalists. Period. And it's racist to equate these hate groups with people who are trying to stand against hate. Why don't you know this?

Of course, Trump would support slavery and its symbols. Typical behavior of a white supremacist like him. He learned from his father who was in the KKK and was arrested for brawling during a demonstration with three other members during the 20s. Both of them were also sued for housing discrimination.

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'Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel' - Samuel Johnson

It's just another form of supremacy, and the flip-side of nationalism.

If nationalism goes hand-in-hand with open, blatant, far right racism, then patriotism goes hand-in-hand with the more insidious 'sorority' (to use a Chris Rock term) centrist racism.

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Three different terms: true patriotism, false patriotism; nationalism

Samuel Johnson actually supported Patriotism which he defined as helping the common interest or greater good.

"A patriot is he whose publick conduct is regulated by one single motive, the love of his country; who, as an agent in parliament, has, for himself, neither hope nor fear, neither kindness nor resentment, but refers every thing to the common interest."

He defined the difference between true and false Patriotism. The latter hurts the country.

" A man sometimes starts up a patriot, only by disseminating discontent, and propagating reports of secret influence, of dangerous counsels, of violated rights, and encroaching usurpation.

This practice is no certain note of patriotism. To instigate the populace with rage beyond the provocation, is to suspend publick happiness, if not to destroy it. He is no lover of his country, that unnecessarily disturbs its peace. Few errours and few faults of government, can justify an appeal to the rabble; who ought not to judge of what they cannot understand, and whose opinions are not propagated by reason, but caught by contagion"

His full address entitled "The Patriot":
http://www.samueljohnson.com/thepatriot.html

Nationalism and patriotism may have had the same meaning at one point, but that recently changed. I like the following definitions:

"Nationalism is the belief that your own country is better than all others. Patriotism is a healthy pride in your country that brings about feelings of loyalty and a desire to help other citizens."

Hitler keeps popping into my head when I hear nationalism.

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The only patriotism I have any time for is the patriotism that inspires people to make their country better so that it can one day, theoretically, be a place one takes a healthy pride in.

But if one is already taking pride in their country and its achievements, that strikes me as saying something akin to 'job done'.

We should be neither ashamed nor proud of the country we call home, especially if we were born there. It's akin to being ashamed or proud of your race or your gender (i.e. a quirk of fate you had no input towards). And we shouldn't be proud of national achievements we played no part in.

But what we can be, potentially, proud of, is our personal efforts to make our country better.

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Bingo! Nothing wrong with waving a flag on July 4th or doing volunteer work to help others in need.

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I'm glad we've come to an agreement, of sorts.

Still, I don't get the whole July 4th thing. Then again, I am a Brit, and even though I am not patriotic about my country, and I am no fan of the monarchy, I still think there is something fundamentally daft about celebrating an act of supposed liberation that took place 243 years ago, not least because, to quote the film 'Dazed and Confused', it amounts to the celebration of the fact "that a bunch of slave-owning, aristocratic, white males didn't want to pay their taxes" (and this is one of those occasions where I think 'playing the race card' is entirely appropriate).

But where I will endorse 'patriotism' is if it pushes those of an altruistic and decent mindset to say "I want to make my country a place to be truly proud of, and so I am going to work hard to make it a beacon of human rights, progressive values, STEM advancement and artistic expression that can benefit everyone, and compassion." If patriotism has that effect, then sure, it can be a good thing (just as religion can be a good thing if it pushes people to involve themselves in good causes).

That said, I still find the concept of celebrating an identity one was born or bestowed with, through no effort of one's own, rather stupid. That's why I also find supremacy, whether it is racial, gender-based, nationalistic, or ethnic, to be moronic.

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"I am a Brit"

OK, that explains everything! Maybe the misunderstanding about the movie line is cultural.

"white males didn't want to pay their taxes"

It had more to do with being taxed without representation.
Actually, I stopped celebrating July 4th a longtime ago when I found out that the British would've ended slavery if they had won.

Reading a British school book about the American Revolution must be interesting since the viewpoints are opposite.

Right now, many countries are run by autocrats and nationalists - not patriots. Brexit was a nationalistic reaction to immigration. And everyone knows what's going on in the U.S. with Trump who once again is inciting violence this time against a Congresswoman because she's Muslim.

"celebrating an identity one was born or bestowed with, through no effort of one's own, rather stupid."

Not really. I read an interesting world history book (Sapiens) that says large scale social cooperation depends on creating group identity through mythology like religion, country, ideology, etc. In other words, it has its purpose.

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Well, the abolition of slavery is an argument one can only make in retrospect, but I do agree that on that basis at the very least, it would have been better had the US continued to be a British colony.

And don't get me started on Brexit. I think it's a travesty.

That said, as much as I think Brexit is, in practical terms, a terrible decision for us to be making, it is nevertheless a choice we are entitled to make. We are not bound by blood to the EU, and in theory we can still cooperate with the EU, secure workers' rights, human rights, and environmental protections, outside the EU, although I'm under no allusion about how much harder those things will be, especially bearing in mind the type of right-wing con-artists who are effectively leading Brexit.

Like I say, I am 100% against Brexit on practical grounds. It's a dumb decision, and if we Brits get a sniff of an opportunity to have another referendum I'll be wholeheartedly campaigning against it, as I did in 2016. However, in principle, I maintain that it's still a dumb decision we're entitled to make.

I also don't entirely agree that Brexit was wholly about immigration. A lot of it was motivated by erroneous immigration myths, but, to be fair, as stupid as Brexit is, and as racist and xenophobic as some of its cheerleaders are, not everyone who supported Brexit did so for racist and xenophobic reasons.

As for your last point, I think community is important. I also think devolution, direct democracy and localised power is a good thing. But taking pride for an identity one was born with is just dumb IMHO. Identity can be helpful for practical reasons, but ideologically national pride is basically another form of supremacy, and supremacy is hateful in all its forms.

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“it amounts to the celebration of the fact "that a bunch of slave-owning, aristocratic, white males didn't want to pay their taxes" (and this is one of those occasions where I think 'playing the race card' is entirely appropriate).”

This is where the quote “Ignorance Is Bliss” is so fitting!

Surprise!! It wasn’t just “whites” who owned slaves. See the following:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/facts-about-slavery/

“The first legal slave owner in American history was a black tobacco farmer named Anthony Johnson.”

Jolly old England wasn’t innocent as there were deep ties to slavery. Our colonies were first British colonies so what country shipped slaves here? Hmm?🤔

https://atlantablackstar.com/2013/10/01/nations-that-benefited-the-most-from-enslaving-african-people/

And who in the hell pulled England’s ass out of the fire during WW2? It was the Patriots carrying the American flag! The same patriots who celebrated the founding of the greatest nation on earth! England’s history in conquering other nations and demeaning the peoples isn’t something to be proud of! England was just as bad as the Roman Empire!



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Not all slave-owners were white, but practically all of the slaves were black, and the vast majority of those who ran and benefited from the trans-Atlantic slave trade were white.

And as for England, I've made my feelings about patriotism quite clear. I'm not a fan. So, I shall not be pushed into defending England's record of colonialism and imperialism, because I am neither inclined to defend England nor the evil practices it has been involved in.

That said, it took over two years for the US to finally involve itself in World War II, and that was only after Pearl Harbour (i.e. a direct threat to US soil).

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You're clearly illiterate. Snope clearly says that he was NOT the first slave owner. And you don't know history. There is a difference between slavery and indentured servitude. In the 1600s, most people (black and white) were indentured servants who worked for a number of years and were then freed. There were instances in which some people ended up indentured servants for life and it eventually became slavery based on skin color.

WW2 was a team effort. U.S., England and U.S.S.R. Why do you care, anyway? You defend and support neo-Nazis.

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You're white you dont fight!

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What?

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What is this referring to?

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