Why at the end did his voice suddenly change to a more effeminate one and his mannerisms flamboyant?
Seemed completely out of left field. I get he had a personality change on stage, but why did it go to this?
Did anyone feel the same way that it felt out of place or did it not stick out to you?
I thought he was always just a little bit effeminate the entire time. Very noticable in the imagined scene where he was in the audience of the Murray's show, long before he transformed into the Joker character.
shareYOU READ INTO WHAT YOU WANT TO READ INTO IT.
shareNeither. Most likely PTSD from abuse due to a BDP mother. No father, no life direction...just abuse. Fucked up people produce fucked up children. Then pile on more abuse.
It's obvious his intention was to kill himself live on TV. Then he changed his mind while flipping through his notebook. He became the Joker right there.
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I don't know how you got that vibe. It was evident that Arthur was straight from what was already shown, just very childlike. He just got more psychotic in the third act, like Phoenix was paying tribute to Hamill's Joker who's renown for being overly flamboyant and theatrical.
sharehttps://moviechat.org/tt7286456/Joker/5d9d7838569dc74a33fa3a25/An-out-there-theory-that-actually-has-supporting-evidence-Arthur-and-his-mother-Penny-are-the-same-person
Part of his old self coming out. Remember, early in the film he says "I felt better when I was at the hospital, i.e before his gender transition."
There's literally no evidence whatsoever for him being his own mother, or having been born female and having surgery to become male. Arthur and his mother are seen together by many people when he comes home and finds her being put into an ambulance. He is even asked to ride in the ambulance with her, and does. Alfred remembers her, and speaks to Arthur about his mother. If Arthur were Penny, Alfred would realize this. All of what you list as your reasons for believing this to be the case are arbitrary theories on your part. There's nothing in the film to support the idea.
shareThe ambulance is the only anomaly I've noticed. As I've mentioned already in the thread.
Yes, Alfred remembers Penny but he/she looked much different from how he/she looks now. We see a photo of Penny pre-Arkham, which Arthur crumbles up. When he's doing this, he's sitting at Penny's/his own dressing table while by Penny's/his own bed.
I expressed all the evidence already. You can choose to believe it or not. I didn't catch many of the details I expressed until my second and third viewing.
You are putting a bit too much stock in your theory, this isn't Psycho.
I hadn't even considered psycho. Also what I'm saying has nothing to do with psycho. Penny became Arthur, a fictional character made real by her as a coping mechanism for losing her child. In psycho, Norman Bates impersonates his supposedly real former mother.
Do you think the confrontation in the theater between Arthur and Thomas Wayne was a dream, or do you think it was real inspite of the obvious allusions?
This was the first domino piece for me. Why would the filmmakers include this dream?
If we assume the confrontation was imagined, which I do think is very likely, I don't see any evidence that the inclusion of the dream in any way suggests that Arthur underwent a sex change. Pretty much every observation you make has no connection to your theory. There is never even the faintest suggestion that Penny isn't real, or that Arthur is Penny, or that Arthur was born female. When Arthur says he hated the name, it was clearly implied he meant Fleck, as it refers to a stain or blemish, and is commonly used in the expression "a fleck of shit."
I appreciate that you've given the film some deep thought, but it seems like you've glommed onto this theory and have no evidence whatsoever to back it up.
The change did throw me off and I thought a lot about it. I have come to a conclusion that he was high...
On killings, on finally being recognized. Feeling in control. Even the way he moved was different: tight and energetic but somehow lethargic at the same time.
In other words, nothing to do with sexuality.