MovieChat Forums > JokerĀ (2019) Discussion > No disrespect for Heath Ledger

No disrespect for Heath Ledger


But Phoenix's Joker is better than Ledger's.

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they're both equally great.

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But is it really?

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It is really.

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Have yiu seen the movie ?

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Yes, last night. It's already playing here in Asia.

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Phoenix killed it, but you can't compare the two. Heath didn't have a 2 hour character picture to dive into, he got just like 20 min in Dark Knight.

Both were crazy good, no need to name who was better.

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Phoenix also didn't become the Joker until like 20 minutes before the movie ends.

Both were exceptionally good yes, but Phoenix's version is better.

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.... There point was Ledger didn't get an entire origin movie.

I think Heath would have been great in this and you can clearly see the inspiration taken from his joker in this.

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Hard to believe.

I mean, Ledger's Joker plays in the same league than Silence of the Lambs or Night of the Hunter. I could believe Phoenix reaches that level (after all, he's the best actor right now)... but better? no way, there's nothing above. That's the top level.

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Well, that was just... like my opinion, man.

And not necessarily that Phoenix acting was better or anything. I have no comment on that. It's just that his version of the Joker is better.

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Mo pretentious but not better

Wat makez a grate Joker is mystery which meanz no origin.

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I disagree. Phoenix had a lot of time and plot turns to work with in portraying different facets of his character. Ledger's Joker was already a fully-formed character.

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Not a high bar IMO, Ledger was way overrated. It's easy to act bizarre because there is nothing to be compared against but acting like a regular Joe while being unique and interesting, that requires real acting chops.

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Ledger was bad. Grabbing a champagne glass, throwing the liquid over your shoulder, and putting the glass back doesn't make you look crazy or dangerous. It makes you look like someone trying too hard to act strange. And "you remind me of my father. I hated my father" isn't clever at all. It's actually pretty corny.

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Ditto

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I don't think he was bad, just overrated, like Nolan's Batman films generally.

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Completely agree. Where is the great acting there? I'm still waiting for someone to tell me which bits merited some of the hysterical acclaim.

Pheonix's Joker wasn't just better but miles better.

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He tasted the champagne though it it tasted like piss then throw it out and placed the glass back. He was showing that only the glass had value while the liquid needed to be disgarded. Lederts joker was more sadistic which is what made him creepy not the set up for him to give a fake origin story about how he got his scares before he killed some one.

I actually though phoenix's involuntary laughter was corny and took me out of the moment. Phoenix's ledger just kind of stumbled into his villian role which feels pretty indifferent to the disturbed master mind we saw in dark knight.

Ledgers joker was trying to show us that we can't/shouldn't try to reason with a disturbed mind that is nihilistic and has no value human life including his own if we are truley trying to protect the public as our goal. It showed us yo u can't reason with a terrorist and that attempts to avoid killing the joker only leads to more innocent people dying for nothing. This joker is evil rational but has different goals then that of an ordinary person would. The film tries to show us that evil (if you can at least view it as anti altruistic behavior) does exist and that rational evil minds do exist in a world where people still believe you can talk your way out of any situation. This film tries to show that attempts reasoning with an evil actor will not change their minds.

Phoenix's joker is the tragic story of a disabled man who wants nothing more then to fit into society and make people laugh. He is bullied beaten and broken by the evils of society and that some how our society is what created the joker. Phoenix's joker is not an organic evil but was created by us and that its our fault that our society turned a generally harmless disabled man into the joker that plagued Gotham and Batman. If only the department of social services kept giving joker his medication we wouldn't have had this problem. If only our society didn't have such a percieved gap between the wealthy.

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No its not. Ledgers joker was very disturbing and had a more frightining impact on the audience. Phoenix jocker was good as well which is why I don't like these types of threads that usually turn into fanboy posts that trash one but praise the other. Both Jokers were good. Ledgers joker was more disturbing while phoenix joker just felt like a disabled man that got propped up to a movement (anti 1%ers etc) that would have just turned on him eventually when they realized he was a bit of a halfwit who just happened to be on a subway with a gun when he was assaulted by the 3 "rich" guys. Ledgers joker was disturbing because he thought life was a joke and valued human life as such while Phoenix's joker didn't even know what a joke was. Also the involentary laughter from phoenix kept breaking the tention for me. I know it was supposed to be forshadowing a dark event about to happen and I guess indicating how irrational phoenix's joker was as his emotional state is detached from his darker state. I just found ledgers joker more disturbing as he exhibiting a wider range of darker emotions yet was rational and calculating in all his decisions. Ledgers joker was evil you can see it as he interrigates the batman imposter on the video. "But but but if your not the batman why do you dress like him(sinister patronizing giggle).... LOOK AT ME!!!(rage)". The only thing close to being creepy that phoenix did was dance silently a few times which was creepy but not master mind of a movement creepy. I kind of feel this silent mime dance was a reference to that one guy duing the BLM riots acting like an orchatra cunductor while the city in the background was in glames.

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Ledger was trying to be evil and scary. Phoenix wasn't trying to be evil or scary, that was the point, he was a Frankenstein's monster created by society and circumstance. In the end he was scary because you realize this could be anybody and you might be partly responsible. My point about Ledger is that he didn't have to act like anyone familiar. His joker was an entirely new take on the character. I'm not saying he was bad, I'm saying he gets too much credit because what he did wasn't hard.

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Agreed. Ledger represents your fear of dealing with monsters hurting society where as phoenix represents dealing with as monster created by society. Your appreciation on the films depends on your outlook on society.

I think ledgers joker was more realistic in terms of a super villian to be afraid of. Phoenix joker is a tragedy where you feel more empathy for the joker. Both are good stories.

I kinda don't like these kind of threads as to me they feel like Star wars vs Star Trek. They are both good stories but so differen't your own personal vales shape which story you like more.

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It's like comparing two different musicians with two different styles, you can love them equally

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agree

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