MovieChat Forums > Watchmen (2019) Discussion > Dr. Manhattan vs No Dr. Manhattan

Dr. Manhattan vs No Dr. Manhattan

posted 4 years ago by NorrinRad (5022)
16 replies | jump to latest

When this HBO series was announced as a (allegedly) distinct 9 episode extension of the graphic novel I wondered if it would include Dr. Manhattan making an appearance. When you introduce a god-like character amongst ordinary humans, even those with superior intellect, it makes problem-solving and conflict quite tricky. Once you introduce him what becomes a 2nd or 3rd act or iteration of stories?

Destroy the god?
Deconstruct the god?
Humanize the god?
Make the god the villain?
Make more gods?

Gods, the cause of and the solution to all of man's problems?

If they introduce Dr. Manhattan in this series there will not be a second season.

or

They tease him in the first season just to kickstart a second season. I kind of feel that is cheating the audience though with a 9 episode series without any true resolution of the series and the story arc for the main character(s) is open-ended?

Dr. Manhattan, "Nothing Ever Ends".

[–] dmac8 (5050) 4 years ago

It's written to be a complete story as though they won't come back for a second season.

But if the viewers are there, they'll come back, of course.

[–] NorrinRad (5022) 4 years ago

Of course it is written to be a complete story but the writers still have to define (maybe not defend) what complete means. A complete story can end on a complete mystery leaving the viewers to attempt to figure out the rest. Thus it becomes open-ended and a setup should there need to be a 2nd or 3rd season, based on ratings. 🤦‍♂️

One of the reasons that Agents of Shield fared so poorly was that the audience was intent on seeing the MCU main stars bopping in and out of the TV series. But if you bring a Thor or even an Iron Man into the TV series exactly what problems are the Agents of SHIELD solving? They truly would have become background players in their own series.

It's just my thought that bringing in Dr. Manhattan could become a ratings gimmick that can only be used one time.

[–] dmac8 (5050) 4 years ago

But it isn't written to be "open ended" with a "tease" for a 2nd season. Using your logic, the audience can always decide that's not the case.

"One of the things that makes the original perfect is those 12 issues are designed with a beginning, middle and end in mind," he said. "They knew exactly what they were doing. We knew we had to do the same. We plotted these nine episodes with every mystery and question being resolved. I sometimes have a different sense of resolution than others, but we wanted it to feel immensely satisfying. We didn't want it to end with [a cliffhanger] for season two."

What else does Lindelof have to say?

[–] NorrinRad (5022) 4 years ago

I sometimes have a different sense of resolution than others, but we wanted it to feel immensely satisfying. We didn't want it to end with [a cliffhanger] for season two."

That is more than enough. His sense of "resolution" and your sense of "resolution" may or will even vary. Nothing he has said precludes a second season. The inclusion of Dr. Manhattan though as a principal character can only be used sparingly regardless of how intriguing or beguiling Dr. Manhattan is. It remains to be seen if audiences in reality (ha-ha, ironic choice of a word for a Watchmen series) are more attached to Dr. Manhattan or to other characters, let alone introduce any new characters.

So far it appears that the current state of the ratings (live viewers for episodes 1-5) wouldn't warrant a second or extended series.

[–] dmac8 (5050) 4 years ago

The only one who specified a story aspect that you think would preclude a 2nd season is you. But if Dr. Manhattan was introduced early on, and ratings were there, the series would still continue. Iow, he can do both. It can be written to stand alone if need be -- and then he can come up with more material if the demand is there. It's a creative endeavor, you know?

And as I said, you can always balk. Always. Anyone can. But you'd be only pretending to know the intent is something other than the claim. If you come to be dissatisfied, that's hardly proof that his intent is to tease or be open-ended. Again, what else could he say? "I've crafted a story that resolves in such a way to satisfy every variance of opinion so as to leave no single viewer with the feeling of being cheated and/or teased."?? There's no such thing. And you never get nearly as definitive a statement like the one he actually made. He could've left himself in the clear by not saying a word.

[–] NorrinRad (5022) 4 years ago

The only one who specified a story aspect that you think would preclude a 2nd season is you. But if Dr. Manhattan was introduced early on, and ratings were there, the series would still continue. Iow, he can do both. It can be written to stand alone if need be -- and then he can come up with more material if the demand is there. It's a creative endeavor, you know?

Isn't that demonstrably rather obvious and exactly what I said?

From your response one would think that I am accusing Lindelöf of some type of nefarious story-writing scheme that I and only I have uncovered. Or even worse, I am criticizing the series or the writers? Too funny.

Just from a story-telling perspective the use of Dr. Manhattan as the ultimate problem-solver could (not will, not shall and there can be no exception) overshadow everything else about the series' characters for upcoming seasons. IMHO of course.

And if I am the only person in the entire universe who thinks and or feels that way then I am indeed that unique and singular "Thermodynamic Miracle". 😎

[–] AndyKing1967 (33860) 4 years ago

one would think that I am accusing Lindelöf of some type of nefarious story-writing scheme that I and only I have uncovered.

Maybe you could write a journal and post it to the press (or did someone else do that already?).

[–] NorrinRad (5022) 4 years ago

Maybe you could write a journal and post it to the press (or did someone else do that already?).

Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! Shouldn't I fear the tentacles of the Cyclop, The Illuminati or the Mafia?

[–] AndyKing1967 (33860) 4 years ago

Do you have a liking for sugar cubes?

[–] Goliard (1413) 4 years ago

"And if I am the only person in the entire universe who thinks and or feels that way then I am indeed that unique and singular "Thermodynamic Miracle"."

Good Lord, man. . .you are ALREADY that. Did you not read the bleedin' novel???

Keep up, here, Norrin. . .

[–] NorrinRad (5022) 4 years ago

Good Lord, man. . .you are ALREADY that. Did you not read the bleedin' novel???

Keep up, here, Norrin. . .

Except I don't really exist within the bleedin' "Graphic Novel", nor the written script. 🤣

But...if me, my birth, if that's a thermodynamic miracle... I mean, you could say that about anybody in the world!.

Yes. Anybody in the world. ..But the world is so full of people, so crowded with these miracles that they become commonplace and we forget... I forget. We gaze continually at the world and it grows dull in our perceptions. Yet seen from the another's vantage point. As if new, it may still take our breath away. Come...dry your eyes. For you are life, rarer than a quark and unpredictable beyond the dreams of Heisenberg; the clay in which the forces that shape all things leave their fingerprints most clearly. Dry your eyes... and let's go home.”

― Alan Moore, Watchmen

[–] Goliard (1413) 4 years ago

Afraid you do, after all:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Watchmen/comments/2jl0yc/is_silver_surfer_dr_manhattan/

[–] NorrinRad (5022) 4 years ago

Not so fast there Oatu.

Norrin Rad should be equated with or to Jon Osterman but the two could not have been any more different but in a few ways very much the same.

Norrin Rad sacrificed himself to save his planet and then saved the lives of many more sentient beings by becoming the Silver Surfer.

Jon Osterman became Dr. Manhattan via a second Thermodynamic Miracle and then began his long journey into, well, contemplating, "Why if man is made in God's image do I not have a belly button but need a penis"? 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️

Why does God have either?

[–] NorrinRad (5022) 4 years ago

Now that the Season finale has aired I can return to my OP and make a case for all of the potential situations that I posited. Except that the writers delved into each within the same series. 🤣

Destroy a god? It would seem that the 7th Calvary's agenda called for the Death of Dr. Manhattan because it was through him that Robert Redford became President and the policies of the Liberal administration caused great harm to White Supremacy?

Deconstruct a god? Both lady Trieu and Cyclops decided they needed to deconstruct Dr. Manhattan and then assimilate his power into a new host. Each felt that Dr. Manhattan was an ill fitting repository for god-hood as he squandered his power and his agency (Which Jon Lacked. They of course were both unaware that Jon created his own Utopia on Europa.) Adrien also felt that Jon was not the right vessel for god-hood and that only he, saddled by his own hubris and arrogance, could decide who should or shouldn't possess that type of power to garner the requisite recognition and adulation.

Humanize a god? Again this happened within this series as Dr. Manhattan was indeed humanized. He himself wanted it and by the stripping of his power he became human but in the form of Calvin. Angela was able to see his re-birth and then subsequent death. If Dr. Manhattan reconstitutes himself what form would he assume? 🤔

Make the god a villain? They achieved that within this same series. To some of the Vietnamese Dr. Manhattan was very much the villain that used his great power for death and destruction. Jon/Dr. Manhattan was doing and being what he thought the government wanted him to do and be. Cyclops and Senator Keene wanted destroy, deconstruct and create their own Dr. Manhattan but given the narrative of this series they too would have created a god-villain.

It seems that Dr. Manhattan was intimating that his power could be transferred. It is never stated that ALL of his vast power would be transferred but it is suggested he could share his power almost infinitely to other hosts as easy as him duplicating himself. They all are one with the force?

So the series explored a lot of threads for Dr. Manhattan which in some way precludes multiple series with the good Dr. as a driving force. There still remains though so many other potential threads of the cause and effect of "Superheroes" in the "Real" world. maybe even the introduction of Demi-godlike Masked heroes?

[–] ace2 (543) 4 years ago

At first that makes sense. However they have portrayed him as being beyond worldly concerns and completely disinterested in humanity. So if he showed up he would have no agenda and therefore hypothetically would have no effect on the story.

[–] Goliard (1413) 4 years ago

Already had this discussion (at length) with someone on another thread, so I'll keep it short: this is a common misconception. He's (demonstrably) NOT "beyond worldly concerns & completely disinterested." Quite the opposite, in fact: his actions drive much of the third act.