MovieChat Forums > Terminator: Dark Fate (2019) Discussion > On a second thought: How a certain chara...

On a second thought: How a certain character's death makes sense after all

posted 4 years ago by MrFilmJunkie (857)
25 replies | jump to latest

spoilers of course..

even though i found john's death and the introduction of a new saviour, dani ramos, highly questionable, it kind of makes sense if you look at it this way: the terminator saga has never been about a "chosen one". it's been about sarah connor all along. so it doesn't matter if the leader of the human resistance is john or dani (or anyone else) - they only could become the leader in their respective timeline because they got trained by sarah. so in the end, the only life that matters is sarah's.
on the other hand, that means skynet wasn't that smart in t2, as they sent a terminator to kill john, instead of making sarah the primary target and john only the secondary one.

[–] B1cKsurN (14707) 4 years ago

It has always been about John Connor the chosen one. You're being brainwashed by woke idiots, snap out of it.

What your brain is doing is the same thing it would need to do if you were forced to eat nothing but shit: Transform your thinking into believing shit is good for the sake of your survival.

The best part about this particular brand of shit is...you don't have to eat it. If you stop paying to eat the shit, it might stop getting served to everyone. Everyone must decide to stop eating the shit.

[–] ozzy100 (101) 4 years ago

I really get confused when I hear people talking about " the story isn't about x its about z" can a story not be about more than one person or thing or something???

or is it now just a way to justify thier sh*tty decisions??

[–] MrFilmJunkie (857) 4 years ago

It has always been about John Connor the chosen one.

so you think if john wasn't trained by his mother, he would still develope to become the big military leader persona?

[–] Strazdas (2328) 4 years ago

Yes, because it was his personality, not the training, that made him a leader.

[–] Strazdas (2328) 4 years ago

>can a story not be about more than one person or thing or something???

Not if it was never about more than one person or thing or something. Stories are written with certain meanings. Some people misinterpreting those meanings does not make the story about that. Theres an old addage in literature teaching - sometimes the curtains are blue because the curtains are blue, not because the author wants to express depression.

[–] 10200 (656) 4 years ago

No, the movie only makes sense if you buy into "we need to reboot the franchise and make it more relevant to today" crap.
Sarah is the main character in T1, but definitely not in T2, and she's not the main character in DF. I guess you could say T1 is Sarah's story, T2 is John's, and T3 is Dani's.

As far a Sara being the trainer - well that really only applies to T1, T2, T3, Salvation and TGen - but oops, according to Cameron only T1 and T2 exist in the universe of DF, so John only becomes the leader in T1. She certainly didn't teach Dani to become a leader because the future that Grace came from did not have Sarah Connor - in that future Dani became the leader w/o Sarah.

Skynet only knew the future of T1 and T2 up to the point where Sarah destroyed Cyberdyne and changed the future. After John was born, he became the threat, not Sarah. In their world he was the only one that mattered.

[–] MrFilmJunkie (857) 4 years ago

Sarah is the main character in T1, but definitely not in T2

t2 is told from sarah's perspective. just like in t1 she's the narrator of the movie, hence the main character.

[–] 10200 (656) 4 years ago

She may be the narrator, but it is John's story. Sarah may have changed the future destroying Cyberdyne, but she would never have survived the T1000 at the hospital w/o John arriving with the T800. She was really crazy nuts when she left the desert to find Dyson and if John hadn't arrived with Uncle Bob then she would probably have been arrested at Dyson's house and returned to the mental hospital. The future would not have been changed w/o John's intervention. It's his story - he is the main character.

[–] MrFilmJunkie (857) 4 years ago

i think sarah doesn't matter anymore at that point, as she already did her duties raising john to become the military leader. john wouldn't be the same person, if he had a "normal" mother.

[–] 10200 (656) 4 years ago

I think you are talking in circles.

[–] MrFilmJunkie (857) 4 years ago

feel free to break the circle with a valid argument.

[–] 10200 (656) 4 years ago

Well you could start by being consistent with the point you are trying to make. Are you arguing that Sarah was necessary for John or anyone else becoming the resistance leader or that Sarah is the main character in T2 and T3.

I don't think I've ever disputed that Sarah's training was what made John what he became. But again you fail to acknowledge that in the T1, T2, and DF universe, he only becomes that leader in T1. In T2 he really hasn't developed past the street smart juvie stage. You have stated that Sarah was instrumental in making Dani into the future leader, but that simply isn't true because the future that Grace knew where Dani already was the leader, did not have Sarah. At the end of DF Sarah is there to help Dani change the future - totally different from training her to be the future leader.

I disagree with you about it being Sarah's story - while Sara is the common thread in all three movies, each one has a different person who is the main character and I've already stated why I think that.

[–] MrFilmJunkie (857) 4 years ago

if the future grace knew didn't have sarah, then how come grace got carl's coordinates tattoed?
the terminator films have always dealt with the time travel paradox in a "circular" way. the future affects the past and vice versa. e.g. john was born because he sent kyle reese back in time to impregnate his mother...

[–] 10200 (656) 4 years ago

Grace didn't know who Sarah was - didn't have a clue and wasn't impressed by her resume'. Do you really think if Sarah had trained Dani from the get-go she wouldn't have been as much of a legend as she was in the future of T1?

From what I recall Dani is the one who had the coordinates tattooed onto Grace. You don't think if future Dani had known Sarah she wouldn't have told Grace about her? Hey - I'm going to send you back to protect me and you will meet this fantastic person named Sarah Connor who made me what I am and is going to help you?

Sorry, DF wasn't a closed loop - it was just like T2 where the future gets changed. Dani even says to Sarah - "this time I'm not going to let her die" - or something close to that.

But, it's been three months since I saw the movie and it's up at Red Box right now so I will go and rent it and see if I missed something. But I think I will end up the same conclusion.

[–] MrFilmJunkie (857) 4 years ago

obviously future dani knew about sarah and carl and therefore had grace tattooed the coordinates. why she made a mystery out of it for grace is not explained in the movie. call it a plot hole, but i'm pretty sure they planned to explain this in a df sequel.

[–] 10200 (656) 4 years ago

Yep - huge plot hole, IMO and very sloppy writing. I have several reasons for believing Sarah wasn't in Dani's original future. The scene where she saves Grace is just terrible - I saw nothing to indicate that a bad ass Sarah had turned or was in the process of turning Dani into another bad ass. "Ok guys, stop picking on this poor little girl and let's stop fighting each other and band together." - So laughable and such bad writing.

If Sarah was person who made Dani into this great leader Sarah would have become another legend and it wouldn't have been necessary for Dani to tell Grace about her because everyone would have known.

I guess we'll never find out for sure because fortunately it doesn't appear we will have to be subjected to unbearable sequels to the movie.

[–] ADBruno1985 (3303) 4 years ago

Interesting take. I see it differently. I agree, definitely not about a "chosen one." But to me what that means is that, if John hadn't risen to power in the resistance, someone else would have. Say how if Trump wasn't President now, someone else would be, we wouldn't just be without a President. So, since John dies, someone still has to lead, and they had to have a mother, hence Dani.

[–] MrFilmJunkie (857) 4 years ago

that's what i meant. if john dies, someone else has to lead. and to become an effective leader it takes a mother like sarah connor who prepares that person for that role. john is dead in df, so she prepares dani. if dani didn't make it, there would be some other person to be trained by sarah to become the future leader.

[–] 10200 (656) 4 years ago

But as I mentioned previously, the future Grace comes from did not include Sarah. Grace had no idea who Sarah was when she first met her. Therefore, Dani for some unknown,(and totally unbelievable reason), became the future resistance leader without Sarah training her. Sarah only becomes necessary to DF not because she is needed to train Dani to become a leader, but to once again change the future.

[–] MrFilmJunkie (857) 4 years ago

yes, but that's a plot hole in df. remember: grace had carl's coordinates tattooed, so sarah must have had significance in dani's legion future, before she sent grace back in time, even though the movie doesn't explain this further.

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

So, what you're saying is that a terminator should shoot Dani in the face with a shotgun within the first 60 seconds of the next movie?

I kinda like where you're going with this.

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

You're making the same mistake that the makers of this movie did... not understanding that the Connor saga was the heart and soul of this series.

It was reported that it was Cameron who suggested to Miller to kill off JC. This was either:

i. a truly stupid idea, since Cameron would have known how Alien 3 generated a lot of ill-will for randomly killing off HIS beloved characters in the opening minutes of that movie;

ii. a brilliant idea if Cameron hoped to undermine Miller, and/or wanted to put the final nail in the coffin for the series. Maybe, after the awful Genisys, he couldn't bear the thought of his original creation being further tarnished?

Whatever... with this movie they disrespected the character and the story arc that they had created through the two previous 'official' movies.

In the end, the money sez you're wrong.

There's a reason this movie tanked. If you read many of the professional reviews and many of the fan forums, a lot of people -- myself too -- lost interest when they learned that they killed off the character, particularly in the opening minutes of the movie. Millions of us just said "Nope".

For me, T1 through Salvation make enough of a complete arc that I consider the series done. For others, they are happy enough with T1 and T2.

You should connect with conanurdevilish though. He'll lend you a sympathetic ear.

[–] MrFilmJunkie (857) 4 years ago

i'm not a fan of jc's death either, but for a different reason. miller said he wanted to have a clean plate and that's why john had to be killed. but if it was about a clean plate, he could just tell his legion story without any connection to the connors.
instead jc's death was used like a mcguffin to shoehorn arnold and linda's character into a story which isn't about skynet anymore.

[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

I think people could have accepted the death of JC, if it had been in the service of the greater saga. Maybe saving Dani(That's her name?) and passing the torch? I'm just spitballin' here.

The way they did it trivialized all the events of the first two movies. They re-released T2 back in 2017 for a limited run. Can you imagine the howls of outrage that would resulted if they had added John's killing as a post-credit end scene?

But that's exactly what they did with this new movie, and one of the big reasons it tanked.

Between this and the numerous Avatar sequels that no one is asking for, I wonder if Cameron has completely lost his creative mojo. As for Miller, he now knows he f**ked up. Once the movie started tanking, he started re-casting himself as the one who was subservient to Cameron's creative decisions.

[–] 10200 (656) 4 years ago

It was really a story that didn't need to be told. There was nothing new and different about it - same story just told a different way that only pissed off a bunch of die hard Terminator fans. Had the story truly been original then I could possibly have accepted John''s death, but FGS they killed him as a kid and that really bothered me.