MovieChat Forums > Terminator: Dark Fate (2019) Discussion > Terminator 2 was the beginning of the do...

Terminator 2 was the beginning of the downfall of the series, in my opinion.


That's my personal and most likely unpopular opinion! :P

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The downfall was Cameron leaving.

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it peaked with T2?

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T2 WAS THE BEGINNING OF "THE SERIES"...BEFORE THAT IT WAS A SINGULAR FILM.

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Even though T2 is awesome, there's already problems with its time logic. And depending how hardcore you are, with its tone and turning the killing machine into a teddy bear. The sequels simply keep running those problems further down the field.

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Exactly,well said!

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#1 the first one already introduced massive time logic problems. if T2 doesn't get a pass nor does T1.

#2 its cannon that the terminators were incredibly smart and set to Read only so they couldn't learn too much and possibly go rogue. in the extended edition they set him to read and write and hence him learning more and more about human emotions. its solid

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read only? where do you get that from?
Also The T2 t800 was reprogrammed by the rebels , it didnt just see the light and go rougue

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In the extended edition, there is a scene, while they are hiding out in the garage, explaining that Skynet puts a block or perhaps a firewall on the terminator's learning capacity. They basically don't want them to learn too much. In the scene, they reset him by taking out his CPU in his head and reinserting it, essentially setting him back to factory settings and allowing him to learn more.

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oh yeah , i remember that. The fake mirror scene.
Amazing how future John Connor managed to reprogram him into friendly teddy bear mode without doing that same mod at the time.

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Although the scene is informative, I'm glad it was cut. I actually watched the extended edition a few weeks ago for the first time in probably a decade and many of the extended scenes are just kind of cheesy and goofy. I'm glad they edited a lot of it out.

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The Terminator was originally a slasher movie, it was serious, dark, gritty and scary.

T2 just like ALIENS was the action sequel to an iconic horror film.

Even though T2 had a tight story and great pace etc, I always felt it had severely detracted from the serious tone of T1. In T1, Arnold was a menacing killing machine, a huge imposing motherfucker who ripped hearts out for a pair of pants! He hardly spoke but when he did, it was great, because we saw him trying to "socialise" or interact with humans around him. But in T2, he was the good guy. Now yes, back in '91, this was a fresh concept but there's many more reasons why I say T2 was the beginning of the downfall. Below is why...

Firstly, dont get me wrong - I like T2, it is a solid sequel for what its worth but it also contains things which I feel has influenced the several sequels that came after it, and personally, these 'things' should NOT be in a terminator movie.
1. Arnold's appearance - In T1, the T800 had arrived in '84 looking like a relatively normal man, he had a big fringe, partially unkept hair and he had zero sense of fashion. In T2, the T800 arrived looking like he went to the SkyNet barbers 30 mins before departure from 2029 to 1995... And when he took the biker clothes, because "it's cool", Cameron decided that this killing machine robot should also take the man's shades. Why? He had just arrived? At least in T1, the T800 wore those iconic glasses ONLY to conceal his removed eyeball!

2. The typical Hollywood elements: Firstly, what did we all hear when Arnold arrived in T1? "Doom doom doom doom... doom doom doom doom..." The sound of the terminator's heartbeat, as according to Brad Fiedel. In T2, when Arnold arrived, we hear some cold metallic sounds quickly ruined by the totally unnecessary inclusion of "Bad to the Bone". Really? Good guy or not, the terminator should not have some cheesy song added in HIS scenes. But hey, according to Cameron, it's probably cool.

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The Terminator was originally a slasher movie, it was serious, dark, gritty and scary.
T2 just like ALIENS was the action sequel to an iconic horror film.

Think that it's extremely difficult for a horror movie to have some decent sequel. There's an exception: the slasher, that case, the sequels are basically the same movie with tricky ways of killing the main characters (Elm Street, Saw, Final Destination, and so on).

BUT... in the standard horror movie, sequels are mostly a copycat with new characters.

Cameron faced this problem three times: when he made the sequel of Piranha, when he made the sequel of Alien and when he made the sequel of T1. The first time he went the usual way: he copied the original movie (Piranha), added some fresh meat, I mean, new characters, and added some new element (Piranhas can fly). It didn't work that well.

In Aliens, he took a different approach: he moved from horror genre to war-movie. And it worked, it worked really well. He did the same in T2, moving from horror genre to action-movie.

Was it the right choice? I think so. Both in Alien or Terminator, a horror genre sequel would have been a copy of the original. From the horror perspective, the story was already told and there was nothing new to add.

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3. The ridiculously far fetched concept of the T1000... Unfortunately, I was only born in 1991 so I was obviously not around to watch this film in cinemas but surely people back then sitting there watching this must have thought: "Okay, so this robot is made of a liquid AND can mimic people, it's clothes, and even random shapes?" Now I assume the popular idea of the Terminator series to the uninformed is about big robots shooting childish laser beams with silly fight scenes is far fetched, but but to us, the fanbase, we KNOW what it's really about: the fear of A.I wiping us out which is actually probable now more than ever considering the sudden burst of technological evolution since 2000 onwards and the continuing independence we thrust upon machines these days.
But in my opinion, the idea of a liquid robot is however, far fetched and ridiculous within the universe of Terminator. It looked absolutely conceivable that a killing machine could conceal itself within 220 pounds of Austrian muscle (plus ironically, that scene in T1 where Arnold removes his eye looks even more real in that universe considering they used a dummy as a stand-in). Compare this simplistic concept to a concept where a Liquid robot is sent back in time and can morph into anything it touches.

Let's not forget, there was also a foundation behind the T800 using flesh despite his attempt to assimilate with society; the foundation was that metal could not go through without flesh covering it. So who can explain to me HOW the T1000 got sent back if it's whole body is robotic/liquid and it's skin is not technically "fleshy"? You can not give me some expanded universe answer because from a movie audience perspective, there's been no movie explanation for this. Let's not forget as well that he can morph his arm into a blade... this just sounds like a modern hollywood idea, no? Style but no substance, no?

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Always wanted a disturbing scene where the T1000 as a ball has to be stitched into a freshly gutted human and sent back in time where he then bursts out of the screaming dying freaked out person who explodes all over the place. That's how T1000s time travel.

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yeah make the t1000 morph into alienshape and we have a movie there

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4. The stupid one liners and the humanisation of Arnold's T800 - THIS is one of my biggest grievances with T2: Arnold being a robotic puppy for a young boy spouting silly one liners such as "Hasta la vista" and "Chill out dickwad". At least in T1, his "Fuck you asshole" was appropriate because his whole character arc was one of being an uncaring, cold and heartless killing machine, plus it was a way to quickly end any conversation in which the caretaker would start.
Explain to me how watching an egoistical smiling Schwarzenegger saying "Hasta la vista, baby" whilst pulling the trigger to shoot the frozen T1000 is better than any scene with the T800 in T1?
In all subsequent Terminator movies, this bumbling moron keeps spouting one liners, engaging in ridiculous camp moments and for what? Look at Genisys... Who can respect a man like Arnold when he participated in Genisys, the one film which pissed all over the legacy of T1 and it's T800. It had "Bad Boys" playing, just like "Bad to the Bone" and he was in posters were he was dressed like a fashion model just like in T2.
The T800 was a killing machine in the first movie but thanks to Arnold's massive ego, he continues the trend of playing good guy even at the age of 73 now! This alone is a bloody joke! Look at the size of him in T1 and now in TDF LOL Please! He is half the size he was and he still convinces himself he can play the lead role. Anyone huge can play him - it ain't exactly Macbeth, is it?

5. I can probably go on, but I'm getting tired lol. The ACTION. Okay, so the action in T2 is incredible - so much work was done, so much heart went into it to conceive it but... Ever since T2, movie studios keep using T2 as the blueprint of how their Terminator project should be like. "More guns? Check. More explosions and massive money shots than T2? Check. More one liners and good guy T800s to soak up T2 nostalgia? Check. More cheesy songs in the background as the T800 smiles or some shit? Check."

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Yep.
Went from gritty sci-fi horror,
To flashy Arnold Schwarzenegger action/buddy-comedy.

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Couldn't have said it better myself...

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so what did you want? another T1?
same again?
little bland isnt it?

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People, as always, please feel free to disagree in the comments, I LOVE discussing movies and once again, I think T2 is GREAT for what it is worth... just consider this, T2 is made by the same bloke who copped out on his own true original ending, conceived the idea of the unfeasible T1000, endorsed Genisys by lying to you that it was a true sequel to T2 and is now endorsing movie studios to continue making movies in this weathered franchise SO LONG as he gets money just by having his name on the credits.

Oh what's that? He co-wrote the story for Dark Fate? Really? Because last time I checked, James Cameron despised ALIEN 3 for killing off Hicks and Newt - two characters who we all invested time in in ALIENS. So this is the same guy who has decided to kill of John Connor in the first ten minutes of Dark Fate and most likely Sarah Connor at the end of Dark Fate? Oh, and THEN make TWO MORE sequels to get more dollars to fund his fifty avatar sequels?

Please... The guy is a hack and we all should have started to see it ages ago.
Terminator Dark Fate is going to bomb and I can't believe people who actually watched The Terminator 1984 are even remotely excited to see this waste of a project.
Everything that is in Dark Fate is all thanks to Cameron being let loose on Terminator 2.
Look at the trailers and you see what I mean. This is nothing more than a quick way to make money to fund his Avatar sequels.

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YEAH...ITS SO GREAT,KEEP DISSECTING IS AND GETTING THE MOVIE HATER TROLLS ALL HORNED UP AND FROTHY.WAY TO GO.

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I don't like your nitpicks! It sounds like you're really overthinking everything!

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