Oh no... women!


Soon to be the subject line of every post on the “Terminator: Dark Fate” message board

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There is feminism done right and feminism done wrong

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Can you give us many examples of it done right? Because the group that tends to complain about these things seem to hate it all. I can't see them being positive about any female-led movie, unless it's a pornographic one.

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T1 & T2.

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If we are just keeping to films with sequences that 'men' may seem acceptable
AtomicBlonde
Mad Max Fury Road
Alien
Aliens
Wonder Woman
The majority of Disney's out put since Beauty and the Beast (exceptions being the Lion King and Aladdin and a Lion does not count a 'male') Admit it you've seen Frozen
The Craft
Resident Evil
Kill Bill
Thelma and Louise
Monster
Salt
Gravity
The River Wild
Long Kiss Goodnight
Lucy - not a great story but good film to park your brain
Peppermint
Scream 1&2

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Scream 1&2, add all the 80's slashers with a final girl.

Nobody on the planet was complaining when a woman was kicking the crap out of Jason Voorhees and Michael Myers and all the dudes got slaughtered.

Day of the Dead. Strong female lead. Nobody cared she was a woman.


Annihilation.

Where were all the SJWs championing this film? Too cerebral for them. Too busy trolling real Ghostbusters fans calling them sexist. SJWs pretending to champion Ghostbusters 2018 as being a watershed moment in film history because the leads were women.

Where are those die hard 2018 Ghostbusters fans now? You would have thought they would be still chatting away about the film now, but no, they have gone silent, they only used it as a political platform to accuse people of being misogynists because they dared to criticise a film where women took the main stage then dropped it like a hot potato leaving the real Ghostbusters fans to pick up the pieces.

Fact is there are many many examples of a strong female characters loved by the general audience and that includes lots of men, fanboys, nerds

If its a good film which people enjoy and a good character nobody cares what sex they are.

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I can't say Annihilation is a great film or not as haven't seen it. Alex Garland films and books are hit and miss for me.

The issue I think a lot of women have with the films with a supposed female lead slasher that 'people' don't complain about...well they are trope tastic and after a while the tropes are a bit boring. Hence why Scream was such a breath of fresh air.

Also it was why Buffy become such a big hit - the blonde cheerleader who is supposed to be victim No1 actually turns round and makes the monsters run. It inverted the tropes that a lot of women in films find themselves outside a 'message movie'.

As for Cameron for all his 'strong' women. Well with the exception of Rose in Titanic they all hit the same trope notes. Women with warrior hearts, who go gooey for something and will fight anyone who comes to hurt them - Ripley, Sarah Connor, Neytri, Brigham. Even that god awful Battle Angel film. Yes I said it was bad, not Nick Cage 'I want those hours of my life back' but it was great outside looking pretty and my take away from it was I hoped Jai Courtney got paid for his cameo in it and any sequel should just focus on the hunter bloke with the mecha dogs.

But that doesn't change the fact that the majority of Cameron written/directed films focus on women who has the defining feature that is basically them having the sort of personality where you can see grabbing an iron bar and beating someone to death with it if push came to shove at the beginning of the film. Which is a kick in the tail from the final girl who gets to scream a lot, is sacrificially vulnerable and then picks up a iron bar to defend herself at the end of it. Cameron's women just have a little more edge on being almost three dimensional.

As for the Ghostbusters mess, well the people who complained I never saw them as 'real' Ghostbusters fans. They were worse than the 'SJW's they were complaining about and the 'SJW's' came out because the supposed real fans were being bullying dicks. Because that was the fight it was a dick measuring contest to excuse the parlance.

Now I'm not saying the reboot was any good - it wasn't. But the film was more than capable of falling flat without the 'real' fans hitting the internet. Hell look at Ghostbusters 2, it was shit and it paid the price for it without the 'real' fans complaining about everything pre the film actually being released. Also the ones that complained the remake ruined their childhood...well if true and they were under 45 then all I can say is they had shitty childhoods with parents who refused to rent or download more recent films and needed help.

But really so what if women are being put into traditionally 'male' type roles. It's different, and it's the marketing that is the problem as the ad department gets there are a lot of women/girls out there who are an untapped market. They just have been so focused on getting young men in seats they have gotten to a point where they don't know how to market to young women properly - sticking Melissa McCarthy in something or a token waif fu warrior when the foyer is selling soda measures that could double as a lake doesn't work to get young women to buy merch.

Because you are right if a movie isn't good (studio fault more than the supposed SJW's) then I won't want to pay. But I get that it is a work in progress that they are trying females out in roles they traditionally didn't do before and so are just breaking out the boxes that were comfy for some audiences. However if I as a female am told that a film is pandering and all the 'fanboys' come out and tell me so - bad film or not I'll part with my cash just to see what the fuss is about and give them the bird. Hell I wasn't fussed about Captain Marvel (personally hate Carol Danvers as a character) but I went to see the film because....well 'f' the bastards and Brie Larson seems like a decent person who seems to be crumbling a lot of hate that seems reserved for politicians who actually deserve it.

Also personally the girl power action shot in Avengers:endgame was just BS! Didn't work outside a marketing shot to minimise the fact that DC made Wonder Woman before the MCU got their shit together to do a Black Widow one. I say that because Captain Marvel is supposed to be the mega hitter of Marvel but unlike Black Panther she is supposed to needed a very photocall tastic starting squad to juice her up to start her run? But that is studio BS not rising to the occasion of actually doing more than lip service.

Now with regards to Terminator - Salvation and Genysis were fucking awful to the point they make rise of the machines look like Lawrence of Arabia.

With this one if the story works in this film and its lead by women so what as you said. I just don't get the BS outrage over this trailer or others like it. Does a trailer threaten some men that much?????

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It pretty much all Started with Fury Road and Force Awakens....when it came to the bitching....I personally think those two films didn't right with the female characters.....the marvel films do it all wrong imo....

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"Day of the Dead. Strong female lead. Nobody cared she was a woman."

Yes because the antifeminism has been revived as a modern thing, largely due to tribalist types being riled up by having a racist misogynist in the White House.

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>riled up by having a racist misogynist in the White House.

Because of this Hollyweird needs to shove down our throats thats its woman in the power position, inorganically.

We didnt care before because it was done well, now they have to ram it down our throats and it just isnt honest most of the time. Thats where people find a problem with it, because it aint honest.

We have had final girls for decades and cheered for them, we dont need to be told to cheer for the final girl and if we dont we are all woman haters.

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Where were all the people back then who now say that women have been held back and are only just being given strong roles?

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Because the group that tends to complain about these things seem to hate it all.


Actually this is not true at all.

The problem is rarely that there is a female lead alone. As others have posted here there are a TON of female lead action films that are not hated. So the thing you have to ask is what did Captain Marvel, Ghostbusters 2016 do differently than so many others.

The answer is clear and simple: They made the gender of the lead the only thing that mattered. Brie Larson said this:
“I’m happy to be on the forefront of the normalization of this type of content and to prove once again that representation matters. Diverse storytelling matters, the female experience matters, and these are markers,”

There is not problem with any of this except the use of the term "normalization". Normalization is actually the opposite of what she is doing. Normalization would be to treat female lead as "normal" Which is what the other films do. She wants to draw attention to the female lead when it honestly does not need to be done.

Young girls do not need to be told that THIS IS A MOVIE THAT IS MADE FOR YOU. Doing this is a disservice to them because it presumes that they do not see things unless they are told to see it. I think they would be able to tell that the lead of Captain Marvel was a woman without having Brie Larson shout it out from the rooftops.

Speaking of Ghostbusters 2016 and Captain Marvel, I liked both films to be honest. I bought Ghostbusters and will own Captain Marvel when it becomes available.

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It's never done right in action movies. Feminism considers violence and warfare to be the domain of males. So strong female characters should really take the moral high ground and solve problems with diplomatic and intellectual solutions rather than participating in the vicious cycle of barbaric violence.

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Feminism seems to want women to look, talk, and act like the traditional "male." Some of these people who seem to dislike the male gender so much, yet they sure try to mimic it.

I don't know why people in Hollywood think to be liked or respected, a female character has to act like a guy to be considered "strong". It actually has the reverse effect a lot of times for me.

I have a hard enough time watching people like Tom Cruise, Keanu Reeves, or Jason Statham in his movies, just beating the hell out of 10 big dude fighters at once. When I see a 4'8", 80lbs woman doing it, it completely takes me out of the movie most times, unless there is some special superpower involved that would allow it to happen.

I'm guessing in 2019 that makes me sexist, but I really don't care. I'm comfortable with the fact that overall I respect women, and ANYONE for that matter, who is a decent human being (respect is earned, not given). I just love how society can't help constantly lumping people into groups instead of looking at people as individuals. Guess what, some women are "strong", and guess what, some women are NOT. Some women are decent human beings, and some are NOT. Some women fall right in line with stereotypes, and some do NOT. Same for men, black people, white people, gay people, etc. Individuals...see how that works? It's not that difficult.

But when it comes to physics, when an 80lbs HUMAN character throws a 250lbs HUMAN character through a wall and beats them to a pulp, regardless of gender, I find it laughable, and the eye rolls will happen.

I also find gender politics to be unbearably annoying, but then again, I find most politics to be unbearably annoying.

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Feminism done right = admit that it seeks female superiority at men's expense, and then destroy itself.

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"Oh no... crap film" interpreted by zombies as "Oh no...women!"

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Undeniably guaranteed that the moment someone says anything negative in any way shape or form about this movie even if it comes with constructive arguments and intelligent criticism they will be called the usual modern insults.

Even the media will latch on and run with the normal comment bombing/trolling narrative mixed in with glowing articles of female empowerment.

The headlines will definately be "The Future is Female"

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i hope the future is female. I hope they manage to throw off the shackes of milennia of oppression and achieve equality.
I guess that sounds too militant huh?

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Women will never achieve equality because feminists define it as being a man. The original Terminator had a strong female lead but feminists weren't happy. Then we had a female Terminator and feminists weren't happy. Now we have a Butch, manly looking woman as Terminator and suddenly it feminism. Women are as sexist against women as they accuse men.

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"Women are as sexist against women as they accuse men."

Gee I wonder why... Imagine someone getting punched down by a bully for years. Then finally she has had enough and hits BACK.

Suddenly the bully, AS ALL BULLIES DO, cries and shouts at her "See you're just as violent as I am! You're the real problem here!"

And yes, that is exactly what bullies do. That is what bullying is, it is aggression with ZERO standards or reason.

To believe the bully requires a deliberate erasing of history. That is what you're doing here by excluding context from your post.

Good job.

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Women are victims as much as everyone is a victim. All a woman has to do is point her finger and she can ruin a man's reputation and probably his career, that's not a victim. Don't be like the people who believe everything on faux news and ditto radio. There are people who believed Obama was the literal Antichrist and or a Muslim terrorist . Men and women get bullied, whites and blacks get bullied, old and young get bullied, straight and gay get bullied, white people didn't invent racism and we are not the evil in the world. It wouldn't surprise me if it comes to light that feminists and faux liberals have been catfished by foreign interests the same as conservatives. Seriously, think about it and maybe unplug for a few years.

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Women have a victim status. Men don't.

Women's problems are taken seriously, they have all kinds of help from government, they have so many organizations, it boggles the mind how they can claim to be strong and independent.

They take more sick days, do easier and cozier jobs, and retire earlier, and day much later than men. They're the most overprotected class in all history, even more than children.

"Women and children first"

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Oh, Jesus Christ, this is a hilarious comment.

What rights do men have in 2019 that women do not have? Or anyone for that matter?

These poor oppressed women of 2019, how dare they have to deal with doors being opened for them, or "ladies night" at the clubs where they never have to buy a drink. It's tragic really.

I love how people fight sexism WITH sexism. Hypocrites.

The future is EVERYONE. Together. Fuck anyone who thinks otherwise.

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well apparently they dont have the right to be in an action film without the men being all up in arms!

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Yes they do. They have every right to be in action films.

And people also have every right to feel any way they want about it, good or bad.

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i guess thats the crux of this whole thread.

If people have a right to feel that women should not be doing that sort of thing, and should be in the kitchen baking cookies instead .... then ...oppression . etc

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Are you talking about the muslim world...... and female muslims in europe and canada?

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I wasnt , but now you mention it they are even more oppressed. Its even more embedded in the culture.

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but women in the west are not oppressed. they are the ones that are oppressing men now.

muslim women are the only ones oppressed

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how are women in the west they oppressing men?

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"i hope the future is female. I hope they manage to throw off the shackes of milennia of oppression and achieve equality."

Human beings have been around a long time. Civilizations have no doubt tried reversing the power balance and given the reigns to women, probably leading to ugly results and destruction worse than men have been able to achieve. Hence men in power for most of recorded human history.

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I dunno , women would be up against some stiff competition in the 'ugly results' department . I'm just thinking of the atrocities commited by the RUF , ISIS , Nazis ... all male driven.

Catherine the Great and Cleopatra fell a bit short in the ugly results league :)
I'm guessing some of the women from Jersey Shore etc could give it a go though.

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"I dunno , women would be up against some stiff competition in the 'ugly results' department . I'm just thinking of the atrocities commited by the RUF , ISIS , Nazis ... all male driven."

Exactly. Just goes to show how atrocious and vicious female leadership must have been.

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"The Future is Female" is a dog-whistle for removing the male presence and role from society.

I understand it's human nature to bash the other gender, but to want another gender to dominate your own? That's self-hatred. Who is allowed to stick up for men nowadays and not be called a misogynist/sexist/incel?

As a man, I want men to succeed. There are no male role models in society today, you'd have to open a history book in order to find any.

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"As a man, I want men to succeed. There are no male role models in society today, you'd have to open a history book in order to find any."

Bullshit. Men have dominated women for centuries , in modern times , in western culture at least , ON PAPER , women are equal , but off paper , in reality, if they try to use that equality , men still go:

"oh no women doing a man thing , waaaaah , im all insecure and scared , and upset she might not be making me my cookies now , waaaaah , lets put women under the boot again , where they belong "

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"Bullshit. Men have dominated women for centuries , in modern times , in western culture at least , ON PAPER , women are equal , but off paper , in reality, if they try to use that equality , men still go:"

In WESTERN culture you emphasize? You really have no clue, do you? Do you think women are treated "equally" in countries where they're forced to wear a veil, or beaten and killed for adultery? Are you even aware that numerous countries like this exist today? Women in western countries are free to loudly exaggerate the inequalities they supposedly face, and they do. The mythical gender wage gap issue, for instance.

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I'm sorry, i do apologise , must be my comma heavy punctuation.
i meant what you said.

here's a more grammatically correct excerpt for you to peruse.

Men have dominated women for centuries. In modern times , in western culture at least , ON PAPER , women are equal.

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" Men have dominated women for centuries "

You mean.. men have PROTECTED women since the beginning of time? Women sits in a cozy cave or log cabin, while men is dangering his own life, trying to painstakingly bring food and resources for the woman to nag about, while demanding the man brushes his dirty boots before coming inside.

The oldest profession. Women have always manipulated men by exploiting sexuality. This means men don't have enough sex and intimacy, and women have surplus - enough to sell the excess and make easy money.

Which would YOU rather do throughout all human history; fight bears in hail storms with only a spear, or lay on a cozy bed or bearskin carpet and open your legs for a couple of minutes at a time?

Yeah.. but sure, men dominate.. you don't see the female domination, because it's not as overt or aggressive, you only see the immediate physical side, not the invisible social side, that women have always used to keep men in the leash.

Nice men finish last, so if men dominate women, it's women's fault for SELECTING those men instead of selecting the shy nerd from the chessclub corner.

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Oh please. You think men treating women like kids is a good thing?

Women who are paid for sex are the ones sexually exploiting men?

Jesus Christ.

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"There are no male role models in society today,"

riiiight.
I dont know what counts as a role model for you so :
What proportion of film leads are male?
what proportion of politicians are male?
what proportion of sports stars are male?
answer: most


who were you thinking of as the last male role model , in the history book?

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I wonder why I touched a nerve here, why are certain men so quick to put down their own gender and yet be so defensive over women?

White male representation in Hollywood is not the same, these are merely boys masquerading as men. The Cary Grants Sean Connerys George Peppards Clark Gables of yesteryear would be considered toxic masculinity in Hollywood today. You really have to ponder to yourself as to why that is, why being a no-nonsense, strong, dominant, powerful man feels so wrong. It shouldn't be considered a bad thing, after all that is exactly what women are setting out to achieve today. You shouldn't have to emasculate men to empower women. Both genders can be strong.

As for the history book query, I'm thinking Hamilton, Churchill, Abe Lincoln, Nietzsche. Let's just say history books in a hundred years or so reflecting the present day won't exactly be men at their best.

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well you've got your Vin Diesels Liam Neesons and Rocks these days


", why being a no-nonsense, strong, dominant, powerful man feels so wrong."


and who are these men "dominating?"

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I don't mean dominating in that sense of the word, being dominant isn't a negative thing, or at least it doesn't have to be. You can be a leader or an "alpha" as some circles call it without being controlling or aggressive. It could be that I'm not watching the right movies, but I've seen plenty of recent ones within the last five years and there just isn't that mans man quality on-screen anymore, Liam Neeson is there sort of. But I'm not talking specifically about tough action movie actors.

I'll just have to accept that Hollywood has mostly replaced stern, confident and classy men with floundering, dismissive and neglectful men even if I don't think this reflects men off-screen. Take Andy Griffith for example, he portrayed somewhat clumsy and oafish characters, but they were very likeable and he was still a strong charismatic figure.

I don't deny that male character behaviours on-screen were exaggerated in the 40s but they still are today, albeit for different reasons.

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"I wonder why I touched a nerve here, why are certain men so quick to put down their own gender and yet be so defensive over women?"

How do you know they are men?

In any case, there are many very insulting terms in existence now; mansplaining, manspreading, toxic masculinity - what are the female counterparts? What's the female version of 'chauvinist'?

If you look at language alone, you can see that it's indeed the MEN that are oppressed, while women are pedestalized. You can't criticize women without a huge backlash.

To find out who rules over you ( = dominates), find out, whom you are not allowed to criticize.

There's probably more toxic femininity around in the world, but you aren't allowed to say it aloud (which is another form of oppression that men suffer from).

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“How do you know they are men?

In any case, there are many very insulting terms in existence now; mansplaining, manspreading, toxic masculinity - what are the female counterparts? What's the female version of 'chauvinist'?

If you look at language alone, you can see that it's indeed the MEN that are oppressed, while women are pedestalized. You can't criticize women without a huge backlash.“

You cannot possible be serious?

Language has always been against women. Most sexual insults are aimed at women. Slut, whore, slapper, tart, strumpet, etc.

Insults that are designed for men are usually insulting to the women in their lives, such as son of a bitch and b*stard.

Then let’s look at other things, such as how being a p*ssy means you’re weak and having balls means you’re brave.

You think that toxic masculinity being called out makes you the victim when it comes to language? How on earth can men like you be so damn deluded? No wonder you oppressed women for so long. You manage to make yourselves the victim even when you’re not. Toxic femininity is not even a thing. Look around you. Women being strong in movies is bringing out the vicious misogyny in men. This is part of toxic masculinity.

Pathetic.

Oh wait. Your profile shows you’re one of those incels/mgtow types. Yikes. Seek therapy dude. Permanently playing the victim and hating women online will only make you more and more pathetic.

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What fantasyland are YOU living in?

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I noticed that as well. What I did not see is them shouting at the top of their lungs that they had so many women. THAT is the problem and not the fact that a woman is the lead.

Look at "Captain Marvel", "Ghostbusters 2016" and "The Last Jedi" and compare them to "Fury Road", "Atomic Blonde" and the upcoming Anna.

The first three made it a point to tell everyone all the time who was the lead and that it was the point. You saw all of the "The force is female" shirts and Brie Larson's stances and the promotion of the "all female Ghostbusters"

The latter three did not because, despite what many people think, male sci-fi fans have zero problem with female leads. Even the Terminator has been female lead for its entire run. The makers of these three films do not have to point out and congratulate themselves at every turn with what they have done.

Brie Larson and others have said they want to "normalize" a female lead. Clark Gregg said that he could not wait until the female lead is no longer a story. The latter three films do just that. What does not "normalize" a film is treating it as special because of the gender of the lead.

I own Ghostbusters 2016 (I do think it is funny) and will get Captain Marvel on its first day of release because I liked it enough to see it 4 times in the theater.

So the next time someone on the internet talks about how the neck beard losers can not handle a female lead, remember that they can. There are, however, people that cannot handle a female lead not being praised like a goddess by everyone so they have to make up lies.

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"I own Ghostbusters 2016 (I do think it is funny) and will get Captain Marvel on its first day of release because I liked it enough to see it 4 times in the theater."

👀

🤣 .... want a latte with soy milk to wash that down?

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That’s so damn pathetic. Using incel buzzwords because a man likes 2 movies movie with female leads. You guys are so miserable.

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Alien was a great movie

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Basically. Less concerned about the so-so cgi or dim lighting or the returning cast being too old than they are about perceived insidious virtue signaling.

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The original Sarah Connor was a woman! She wasn't black and transgender but still...

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Actually - it's a fair comment. Especially if you look at the recent trend in films in how men are depicted.
In this film - you got 3 chicks, one aging terminator - and one evil white dude terminator. I'm thinking chicks will kick dudes' arses in this one - and probably save arnold's arse as well. Men are no longer the saviors in the new feminist era - they are either evil or they need to be saved by the uber-powerful chicks.

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Previously they put females in action movies for practical reasons since men wanted to see hot chicks. Now they just put them to promote a social agenda. THAT'S what people have a problem with. Not women in action flicks

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ARE YOU FOR REAL?JESUS,PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

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If you have a problem with the point that I was making why don't you have the guts to to stick your neck out and say what you mean instead of replying like a coward? People like you who don't make any points and just bash other are the problem, not people like me.

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" say what you mean instead of replying like a coward?"

taking his reply , in context with what you posted, I dont think he could have put it any clearer.

You basically said "women in movies are fine if they are just there to look pretty and get their tits out , but now that they are allowed to be the hero , us men are all butthurt "

Theres nothing more to say to your comment except "yes , ^that , U R the problem"

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NO, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM

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Nuh-uh. You are.

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No, Tom8 is right.

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