MovieChat Forums > John Wick: Chapter 3 - Parabellum (2019) Discussion > LOL at "armor-piercing shotgun slugs"

LOL at "armor-piercing shotgun slugs"


12 gauge shotgun slugs are the opposite of what makes a good armor-piercing projectile. They are relatively big (large frontal area) and relatively slow. For piercing armor, a small diameter, pointy projectile (such as a spitzer bullet), at high velocity works best, for reasons which should be obvious. This is why typical soft body armor such as IIIA will stop typical handgun and shotgun rounds, including 12 gauge slugs, but typical rifle rounds go through them like a hot knife through butter.

Ironically, there's a common-as-dirt cartridge that's far more effective against body armor than 12 gauge slugs, i.e., 5.56 NATO (which is the standard cartridge for the equally common AR-15/M16 rifle platform). Any armor that can stop 5.56 NATO will inherently stop a 12 gauge slug, even if the slug is steel rather than lead, with ease.

There's no such thing as soft body armor that can stop 5.56 NATO. In order to stop it you need thick, hard plates made of steel or ceramic (III+ at a minimum, and that's only against non-AP rounds; the best 5.56 NATO AP rounds [tungsten core, e.g., M995 AP4] will defeat even level IV if the barrel is long enough), and in practical terms, those can only be worn on the front and rear of your torso. If you tried covering your arms, shoulders, legs, pelvic region, and neck with them, you'd have next to zero mobility.

If the movie makers had asked someone who knew what they were talking about, instead of their secretary, when Wick's character asked for something more effective against armor, he would have been given something that can easily defeat any body armor in existence, including level IV, such as the 7.62 NATO M948 SLAP round.

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I think it was an aesthetic choice. Another assault rifle would have looked more or less similar to the ones they were carrying. They gave Wick a weapon that looked clearly different, some kind of shotgun if I remember correctly, even though it wasn't the right choice.

Anyway, think that medieval movies use to be much worse. They have swords going through chain mail and plate armor as they were piercing through butter.

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I think it was an aesthetic choice. Another assault rifle would have looked more or less similar to the ones they were carrying. They gave Wick a weapon that looked clearly different, some kind of shotgun if I remember correctly, even though it wasn't the right choice.

Just make it an M14 rifle, which stands out a lot more than a run-of-the-mill combat shotgun which can be seen in most any action movie. The M14 isn't an assault rifle, and with its walnut and steel construction, 22" barrel, and nearly 11-pound weight when fully loaded, it not only stands out, but it's visually impressive as well. Plus it's believable, due to being chambered for the 7.62 NATO cartridge, and if loaded with M948 SLAP rounds (which have a unique, standout appearance themselves, which is better for the closeup shots of the ammo than those highly ordinary looking shotgun shells were), no body armor in existence will stop it.

To take it even further in that direction, they could have used an M1 Garand, which looks a lot like an M14 (the M14 was heavily based on the M1 Garand), but looks even less like an assault rifle than the M14 does due to the lack of a detachable box magazine. Combine that with the Garand's unusual en bloc clips for loading/reloading its internal/fixed magazine, and you have something that really stands out from the crowd.

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You're reading a little too much into a fictional film. John Wick doesn't exist in the real world. He has fictional armour made up of "silicon carbide discs, ceramic matrixes, something laminate" etc

As for the AP shotgun slugs, it is possible to defeat level III hard armour with slugs but they are fairly specialist and as you say, way easier to just use 5.56 M995 or other AP round.

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"John Wick doesn't exist in the real world. He has fictional armour made up of "silicon carbide discs, ceramic matrixes, something laminate" etc"

That doesn't matter, given that the 12 gauge round that they described and showed onscreen is a real-world thing (i.e., 12 gauge firearms and shells are real, and steel is a real material), and it won't penetrate even lowly IIIA soft body armor (which stops buckshot and slugs from a 12 gauge shotgun as well as typical pistol rounds), let alone hard body armor.

"As for the AP shotgun slugs, it is possible to defeat level III hard armour with slugs but they are fairly specialist"

Not the ones they showed and described ("12 gauge steel slugs, armor-piercing") in the movie. The only way it would be possible for a 12 gauge to defeat hard body armor (or even soft body armor, for that matter) would be through the use of a smaller diameter projectile with a sabot, which would be utterly pointless (counterproductive, even) in the context of this movie, because all you're doing is duplicating what rifle rounds already do by design, but you're still limited to the low capacity and slow-to-reload fixed tubular magazines of those shotguns they were using. You can see here that the slugs are full caliber (.729" diameter) not smaller diameter with a sabot...

https://i.imgur.com/K4FrraI.jpg

... and to make matters even more comical, they are loaded in low-brass shells. With a steel slug weighing, say, 1 ounce (437.5 grains), and a velocity of maybe 1,200 FPS (considering the low-brass shells; with high-brass you could get to about 1,800 FPS, not that it would help), they wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of penetrating body armor.

Ironically, there are boxes of .223 ammo (.223 is compatible with any gun chambered for 5.56 NATO) right beside those ridiculous shotgun shells, and even if they were just ordinary non-AP rounds, they would defeat any soft body armor in existence, and even some types of hard body armor.

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And how do you know these were just your regular slugs, not fictional AP slugs that are possibly even pointy? I'm not a gun expert so if there's any reason why a slug can't be pointy, let me know.

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Because they showed them onscreen. See the post that I just made above in reply to RogueDemonHunter for more details.

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Maybe it was a sabot instead? I've seen some crazy shotgun ammunition, real sci-fi stuff. Makes me want a shotgun for home defense over a carbine.

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"Maybe it was a sabot instead?"

They weren't saboted. See my previous post where I linked to a screenshot of them, and where I also explained why saboted slugs would be pointless / counterproductive compared to a rifle cartridge.

"I've seen some crazy shotgun ammunition, real sci-fi stuff. Makes me want a shotgun for home defense over a carbine."

Shotguns work great for home defense with ordinary buckshot or slugs, though neither will defeat soft body armor, let alone hard body armor. If you use saboted slugs, you're effectively turning it into a rifle in terms of bullet performance, but you're still stuck with the big bulky shells, low magazine capacity, and a slow-to-reload fixed tubular magazine (in the case of typical pump or autoloading shotguns). If you want rifle-like performance then just use a rifle or carbine chambered for an intermediate or full rifle cartridge, or a magnum revolver cartridge such as .357 or .44 Magnum (when fired from a carbine or rifle length barrel, those effectively become intermediate rifle cartridges in terms of energy).

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I don't really think that it matters at close range, and that's what all of the combat inside the continental was.

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12 gauge slugs won't penetrate body armor at any range.

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Most won't. But there are special shotgun rounds that would. There have been round made for law enforcement since the 90's that were designed to shot through an engine block which would be enough to go through soft body armor. Now that said, the screen shot of the shotgun shells are clearly not the specially shells that would go through body armor... but this was a movie, I stopped counting bullets fired long before the Wick movies came out because if you want to hold up the movies to the standards of reality you will find a very short list of movies you will ever watch.

I'm just not sure why you are so focused on this aspect of the movie where there are many more that are much less believable... You know falling off a building the way he did and living... that's a much tougher thing do accept than special bullets.

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"Most won't. But there are special shotgun rounds that would."

I've already addressed that. See my reply to RogueDemonHunter from a month ago.

"Now that said, the screen shot of the shotgun shells are clearly not the specially shells that would go through body armor."

Plus, as I also mentioned in my other post, it would be counterproductive compared to just using e.g., a .223/5.56 rifle:

"The only way it would be possible for a 12 gauge to defeat hard body armor (or even soft body armor, for that matter) would be through the use of a much smaller diameter projectile with a sabot, which would be utterly pointless (counterproductive, even) in the context of this movie, because all you're doing is duplicating what rifle rounds already do by design, but you're still limited to the low capacity and slow-to-reload fixed tubular magazines of those shotguns they were using."

"I'm just not sure why you are so focused on this aspect of the movie where there are many more that are much less believable... You know falling off a building the way he did and living... that's a much tougher thing do accept than special bullets."

It doesn't matter why. It's what I wanted to post about so I posted about it. I never said, nor suggested, that it was the only, or even the most problematic, issue with the movie.

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Hey you want to post about this problem because it bothers you, go for it... but some of us will just wonder why this problem bothers you so much more than the others when this is really a minor problem considering some of the other problems. I mean you could have a drinking game with the movie where you take a shot everytime Wick would have been killed in real life but he just keeps chugging along... I doubt you could make it past the first half of the movie before most people would have passed out drunk.

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"Hey you want to post about this problem because it bothers you, go for it"

Reading Deficiency Alert

In any case, your entire post is a non sequitur, and as such, consider it dismissed out of hand.

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You want darts over slugs for piercing, but yes 12 gauge in general is bad for it. You could try flechette, but they tend to underperform outside of lab.

5.56 NATO is good at armor piercing but is not effective at taking down a threat. There was a reason that deployed soldiers would complain about the ammunition. It went through the insurgents and left little eonugh damage that they just kept fighting back.

I do wonder though, we never saw a single shot from that rifle he took hitting an enemy. Wick just abandoned it after firing two magazines for supression. That one would likely had enough piercing so he wouldnt need to return to begin with.

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After seeing this shotgun penetrator slug in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIP6EQpeeFI&ab_channel=TAOFLEDERMAUS

I don't see why some armor piercing slugs wouldn't work.

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The ones in the movie were round-nose slugs:

https://i.imgur.com/K4FrraI.jpg

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I get it, you hate science and facts. Probably don't believe in Climate Change and think Trump won the election. Your claims have been debunked a thousand times in this thread. There is a such thing as armor-piercing shotgun slugs, moving the goal posts doesn't change that.


https://lmgtfy.app/?q=armor-piercing+shotgun+slugs

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"I get it, you hate science and facts. Probably don't believe in Climate Change and think Trump won the election. Your claims have been debunked a thousand times in this thread."

Your non sequitur is dismissed. Also, how's the weather out there tonight, in deep, deep left field?

"There is a such thing as armor-piercing shotgun slugs"

The slugs shown in the movie can not be armor-piercing, as I've already said. Not only are they full-caliber (rather than saboted) and round nose, but they are in low-brass shells as well.

"moving the goal posts doesn't change that."

Your laughable attempt to redefine the term "moving the goal post" is dismissed.

"https://lmgtfy.app/?q=armor-piercing+shotgun+slugs";

Lmgtfy? LOL. Are we back in 2008? Try this link:

https://youtu.be/iKfZRLfq8F4

You only have to watch the first 3 minutes to see that it doesn't work, despite being marketed as "armor-piercing".

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So you admit that you don't believe in Climate change and think Trump won the election. This is very important information because it reveals your state of mind and explains why you insist on googling videos where some Armor Piercing Shotgun Slugs fail as evidence all Armor Piercing Shotgun Slugs fail.

As usual, given you're a trump supporter, you also refuse to understand what moving the goal posts means. Education scares you folk.

Notice that you're still trying to claim all Armor Piercing Shotgun Slugs fail and retreating behind "The slugs shown in the movie can not be armor-piercing" every time evidence is shoved in your face. The goal post is clearly whether Armor Piercing Shotgun Slugs exist, which they have been proven to exist. cyguration already posted a video of them working, but of course, being a Trump supporter, you cannot watch evidence and think "my god, I am stupid. Climate change really exists and why don't we do something about it."

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"So you admit that you don't believe in Climate change and think Trump won the election. This is very important information because it reveals your state of mind and explains why you insist on googling videos where some Armor Piercing Shotgun Slugs fail as evidence all Armor Piercing Shotgun Slugs fail. As usual, given you're a trump supporter, you also refuse to understand what moving the goal posts means. Education scares you folk."

Your non sequitur is dismissed, clodpate.

"Notice that you're still trying to claim all Armor Piercing Shotgun Slugs fail and retreating behind "The slugs shown in the movie can not be armor-piercing" every time evidence is shoved in your face."

Reading Deficiency Alert

Of course it's possible for an armor-piercing 12 gauge slug to exist; I already said as much a year ago. Once again:

"Not the ones they showed and described ("12 gauge steel slugs, armor-piercing") in the movie. The only way it would be possible for a 12 gauge to defeat hard body armor (or even soft body armor, for that matter) would be through the use of a smaller diameter projectile with a sabot, which would be utterly pointless (counterproductive, even) in the context of this movie, because all you're doing is duplicating what rifle rounds already do by design, but you're still limited to the low capacity and slow-to-reload fixed tubular magazines of those shotguns they were using. You can see here that the slugs are full caliber (.729" diameter) not smaller diameter with a sabot..."

"The goal post is clearly whether Armor Piercing Shotgun Slugs exist"

No, simpleton, the goal post is that the slugs shown in the movie can't possibly be armor-piercing. Furthermore, armor-piercing 12 gauge slugs would be a stupid idea anyway if you already have access to centerfire rifles, as I explained a year ago (see above).

"cyguration already posted a video of them working"

The slugs in that video use a sabot (and high-brass shells of course). See above (again) to read what I said a year ago, before the video that Cyguration linked to even existed.

"but of course, being a Trump supporter, you cannot watch evidence and think"

Your non sequitur is dismissed, Slow Doug.

"my god, I am stupid. Climate change really exists and why don't we do something about it."

Comical Irony Alert (you know, coming from the dullard who can't read properly and resides in deep left field).

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You just keep confirming that you believe this nonsense, what else do you believe. That they put trackers in the COVID-19 vaccine and that 5G causes COVID-19?

People who aren't even willing to admit that Biden legitimately won the election are brain damaged, it isn't a non-sequitor to point out that you have significant brain damage and as such are incapable of learning. I mean, the kind of stuff you actually believe is insane... RFID chips being used to track people?

Regardless, you don't understand that your first post firmly establishes that the goal post is not " the slugs shown in the movie can't possibly be armor-piercing" and that it is "12 gauge shotgun slugs are the opposite of what makes a good armor-piercing projectile. They are relatively big (large frontal area) and relatively slow. For piercing armor, a small diameter, pointy projectile (such as a spitzer bullet), at high velocity works best, for reasons which should be obvious. This is why typical soft body armor such as IIIA will stop typical handgun and shotgun rounds, including 12 gauge slugs, but typical rifle rounds go through them like a hot knife through butter. " and if you were literate, you'd read your own posts and realize that you're a monkey repeating over and over "it doesn't exist, NO THAT ISN'T REAL... REALITY IS SCARY, QANON SAVE ME"

So far, we've confirmed that you're mentally retarded, you don't know what moving the goal posts means, and "armor-piercing shotgun slugs" exist. So what was the point of this thread again, to show how stupid you are?

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"You just keep confirming that you believe this nonsense, what else do you believe. That they put trackers in the COVID-19 vaccine and that 5G causes COVID-19?"

Your non sequitur is dismissed, simpleton. Since you obviously don't know what a non sequitur is: it's something that doesn't logically follow from anything that preceded it. In this case, I haven't said anything at all about "Trump", "climate change", "COVID-19", or "5G", so your posts regarding those things can't possibly follow from anything I've said, and non sequiturs can legitimately be dismissed out of hand. Also, since idiots are the only source of non sequiturs of this type, you have publicly declared idiocy multiple times now. Consider it noted.

"People who aren't even willing to admit that Biden legitimately won the election are brain damaged, it isn't a non-sequitor to point out that you have significant brain damage and as such are incapable of learning. I mean, the kind of stuff you actually believe is insane... RFID chips being used to track people?"

Your non sequitur is dismissed, numbnuts.

"Regardless, you don't understand that your first post firmly establishes that the goal post is not " the slugs shown in the movie can't possibly be armor-piercing" and that it is "12 gauge shotgun slugs are the opposite of what makes a good armor-piercing projectile. They are relatively big (large frontal area) and relatively slow. For piercing armor, a small diameter, pointy projectile (such as a spitzer bullet), at high velocity works best, for reasons which should be obvious."

What I posted is correct (obviously, else I wouldn't have posted it). As I explained in a subsequent post:

"The only way it would be possible for a 12 gauge to defeat hard body armor (or even soft body armor, for that matter) would be through the use of a smaller diameter projectile with a sabot"

A smaller diameter projectile is not a 12 gauge slug. 12 gauge is a diameter, and using a smaller diameter projectile means it's not 12 gauge, by definition. The sabot is 12 gauge, but the slug itself isn't.

"and if you were literate"

Comical Irony Alert: Part II

"you'd read your own posts and realize that you're a monkey repeating over and over "it doesn't exist, NO THAT ISN'T REAL... REALITY IS SCARY, QANON SAVE ME""

Your non sequitur is dismissed, dolt.

"So far, we've confirmed that you're mentally retarded"

Comical Irony Alert: Part III

"you don't know what moving the goal posts means"

Comical Irony Alert: Part IV

"and "armor-piercing shotgun slugs" exist."

Thank you, Captain Obvious, but I already said as much, a year ago.

"So what was the point of this thread again, to show how stupid you are?"

Comical Irony Alert: Part V

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Amazing, you're not refuting any of the facts I state about you. Qanon has really rotted you brain hasn't it... more scared of getting vaccinated than you are of the "plandemic." Establishing your mental instability is a key point in my argument. Trump supporters are brain damaged, thus anything a Trump supporter believes is subject to question.

"As I explained in a subsequent post:"

You mean "As I moved the goal posts after realizing the Orange Pig wasn't going to save me from my stupidity." Goal posts are set with the first post, not subsequent posts. But of course you worship the Orange Pig and don't think for yourself.


Why not just admit that you're wrong, I mean being this stupid isn't changing the fact that you misspoke because you weren't smart enough to google something before you opened your mouth. Now you've moved the goal posts to something that no one can check in an effort to win by argumentum ad ignorantiam.

You're making the claim that the slugs in the movie cannot penetrate armor and are not any of the types of slugs that can penetrate armor, yet you completely failed to acquire the slugs in the movie so you can prove your claims. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, you claim the rounds cannot penetrate armor so go buy John Wick brand shotgun slugs and shoot them at armor to prove it to us.

Just like how you couldn't prove election fraud, you cannot prove your stupidity about movie brand shotgun slugs. I still find it hard to understand how you trumpsters get this stupid.

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"Amazing, you're not refuting any of the facts I state about you. Qanon has really rotted you brain hasn't it... more scared of getting vaccinated than you are of the "plandemic." Establishing your mental instability is a key point in my argument. Trump supporters are brain damaged, thus anything a Trump supporter believes is subject to question."

Your non sequitur is dismissed, moron.

"You mean "As I moved the goal posts after realizing the Orange Pig wasn't going to save me from my stupidity." Goal posts are set with the first post, not subsequent posts. But of course you worship the Orange Pig and don't think for yourself."

Reading Deficiency Alert: Part II

"Why not just admit that you're wrong, I mean being this stupid isn't changing the fact that you misspoke because you weren't smart enough to google something before you opened your mouth. Now you've moved the goal posts to something that no one can check in an effort to win by argumentum ad ignorantiam."

The goalpost hasn't been moved, dumbass, and I didn't misspeak. I said...

"12 gauge shotgun slugs are the opposite of what makes a good armor-piercing projectile. They are relatively big (large frontal area) and relatively slow."

... which is correct. What I explained in a subsequent post didn't contradict anything from my OP, nor did it move the goalpost, because a smaller diameter slug is not a 12 gauge slug, obviously. The slug in the video that Cyguration linked to is not a 12 gauge slug; it's a smaller diameter slug with a 12 gauge sabot, just as I said (a year ago) is what's required to have an armor-piercing round that functions in a 12 gauge shotgun.

Does the "bolding" help, road apple?

"You're making the claim that the slugs in the movie cannot penetrate armor and are not any of the types of slugs that can penetrate armor, yet you completely failed to acquire the slugs in the movie so you can prove your claims. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, you claim the rounds cannot penetrate armor so go buy John Wick brand shotgun slugs and shoot them at armor to prove it to us."

12 gauge round-nose steel slugs, in low-brass shells, as seen in the movie, can not penetrate body armor. I already posted a link to a video where some 12 gauge slugs that were marketed as "armor-piercing", and used a steel projectile, failed to penetrate lowly level IIA body armor. And, they used high-brass shells, so they had a better chance of doing it than those laughable prop slugs in the movie:

https://youtu.be/iKfZRLfq8F4

"Just like how you couldn't prove election fraud, you cannot prove your stupidity about movie brand shotgun slugs. I still find it hard to understand how you trumpsters get this stupid."

Your non sequitur is dismissed, and LOL at your repeated attempts at a crystal ball reading, Miss Cleo.

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What's really funny about this, is that you keep calling ad hominems "non-sequiturs" because you don't know the difference. Rather proves my point that you're too stupid to educate doesn't it?

Sorry, but fact is that it is a 12ga round with a little bit of plastic to ensure a firm seal (it's a hand made round). You're just upset that you were so stupid to make this thread that you're claiming clear evidence to the contrary isn't evidence.

If we use your same level of "evidence" then I can easily claim your video of slugs aren't 12 ga slugs because they're smaller than the casing. You have no argument, admit it, and stop shifting the burden of proof. All you have done is shown ONE slug cannot penetrate armor and claimed any other slugs weren't slugs. You must test every single slug to prove there are no slugs that can penetrate armor. We've already shown that there are slugs, but you insist they aren't slugs because they defeat your argument.

Trump lost, deal with it... I get that little willy of yours itches for his caress. (It really is funny how stupid someone has to be to think a non-sequitur is what you think it is. You admitted you were a Trumptard back when you responded "deep left field," any rational person would have immediately said "Biden did win the presidency, and Climate Change is real." Given most of you Trumptards think alike, I threw out a few QAnon conspiracies to see if you'd rationally dismiss any of them. Instead, you embraced them and refused to dismiss conspiracies you clearly believe are true.)

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"What's really funny about this, is that you keep calling ad hominems "non-sequiturs" because you don't know the difference."

I already explained to you what a non sequitur is, idiot, so that's another Reading Deficiency Alert for you. Here it is again:

Since you obviously don't know what a non sequitur is: it's something that doesn't logically follow from anything that preceded it. In this case, I haven't said anything at all about "Trump", "climate change", "COVID-19", or "5G", so your posts regarding those things can't possibly follow from anything I've said.

Also, there is no hyphen in non sequitur. All you have to do is copy the way I've typed it to get it right, and you're too stupid to even do that.

On top of that, all fallacies, including ad hominem, broadly fall under the category of non sequitur, because it's impossible for a fallacy of any kind to logically follow from that which preceded it.

"Sorry, but fact is that it is a 12ga round with a little bit of plastic to ensure a firm seal (it's a hand made round)."

No, moron, 12 gauge is a diameter, and if a slug isn't 12 gauge diameter then it's not a 12 gauge slug, by definition, obviously. That "little bit is plastic" is called a sabot, and it's used because the slug was intentionally made undersized. It has nothing to do with that particular one being handmade (LOL at you thinking a machinist can't make a slug to a precise diameter); factory-made sabot slugs (and sabot bullets in rifle cartridges) have been on the market for ages.

"You're just upset that you were so stupid to make this thread that you're claiming clear evidence to the contrary isn't evidence."

Comical Irony Alert: Part VII (you know, coming from the simpleton who has publicly declared idiocy about 30 times in this thread alone).

"If we use your same level of "evidence" then I can easily claim your video of slugs aren't 12 ga slugs because they're smaller than the casing."

"Smaller than the casing"? Is that a joke? You're completely out of your depth here. You don't know the first thing about firearms/ammunition. All slugs/bullets are smaller diameter than the casing, except for archaic heel-based bullets which are only still being commonly used in .22 rimfire cartridges, and being smaller diameter than the case has nothing to do with anything I've said (i.e., it's another non sequitur from you).

"You have no argument, admit it, and stop shifting the burden of proof."

Your non sequitur is dismissed.

"All you have done is shown ONE slug cannot penetrate armor"

One 12 gauge slug made of the same material (steel), and higher velocity than what those ridiculous movie prop slugs could achieve, due to having high-brass shells rather than low-brass shells. It's well known that 12 gauge slugs can't penetrate commonly used body armor, which is why said body armor is rated to stop 12 gauge slugs.

"and claimed any other slugs weren't slugs."

And this is another Reading Deficiency Alert from you. I said that slugs that are smaller in diameter than 12 gauge aren't 12 gauge slugs, which is inherently true, obviously. My OP is about 12 gauge slugs, like the slugs shown in the movie.

"You must test every single slug to prove there are no slugs that can penetrate armor."

I don't have to do any such thing.

"We've already shown that there are slugs"

False.

"but you insist they aren't slugs because they defeat your argument."

False. I've pointed out that they aren't 12 gauge slugs.

Your last paragraph is yet another non sequitur and yet another public declaration of idiocy. LOL at that, and LOL at you too, you know, while I'm at it.

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I really have to laugh at you Trumptapus. Even when I explain what I'm doing you insist on making a fool of yourself and continue showing that you not only don't know what non-sequitur means but you don't even understand any fallacy other than non-sequitur. Hilarious too that you insist it's a non-sequitur to point out that you're shifting the burden of proof (which is another informal fallacy).

Wikipedia clearly calls a 17.5 mm shotgun slug a wad slug, which means it isn't a sabot which you claim it is. Of course facts are scary and Trump won the election, keep thinking that and you'll come out fine. You want 12 gauge slugs though, right? 18.5 mm... but won't accept any plastic to increase the back pressure because wad slugs don't count since they defeat your argument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_slug

Take a look at your own video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKfZRLfq8F4

We can clearly see this slug is smaller than the shell at the middle and the top, so your claim of what constitutes an armor piercing shotgun slug clearly doesn't need to be uniform diameter through out.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b16b9bfedc9ed51e3029930429b59ef1

See, you're the one claiming something cannot be done, but then rejecting all instances of it being done because it proves you wrong. You keep shifting the goal posts because you KNOW Trump lost the election and you KNOW you're wrong, that is why you keep fighting this losing argument. Because admitting you don't understand logic means admitting Trump lost the election.

A 12ga slug isn't firmly defined, there's no exact measurements or points which mean it is no longer a slug. It just changes to a different type of slug. They're all 12 ga slugs.

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"I really have to laugh at you Trumptapus. Even when I explain what I'm doing you insist on making a fool of yourself and continue showing that you not only don't know what non-sequitur means but you don't even understand any fallacy other than non-sequitur. Hilarious too that you insist it's a non-sequitur to point out that you're shifting the burden of proof (which is another informal fallacy)."

Your non sequitur is dismissed, moron.

"Wikipedia clearly calls a 17.5 mm shotgun slug a wad slug, which means it isn't a sabot which you claim it is."

Again, you're an idiot. Just watch the video that Cyguration linked to. It's a 17mm (.675 caliber) slug, not 17.5mm, and you can see the sabot, though you obviously don't even know what a sabot is or what one looks like. If you want it spelled out for you just listen to what he says at about the 47-second mark:

https://youtu.be/iIP6EQpeeFI

"And they utilize a discarding sabot"

The green plastic thing is the sabot.

Is that clear, numbnuts?

A 12 gauge slug is .729 caliber. 0.729" ≠ 0.675", obviously, therefore it is not a 12 gauge slug, obviously.

The rest of your paragraph is yet another non sequitur; consider it dismissed out of hand, of course.

"We can clearly see this slug is smaller than the shell at the middle and the top"

As I've already told you, nincompoop, all slugs/bullets are smaller diameter than the shell/case, except for archaic heel-based bullet designs, which haven't been in common use for ages, except for .22 rimfire cartridges. That sabot slug is smaller than the BORE, which is why it's not a 12 gauge slug.

You're just as ignorant about guns/ammo as Cyguration is. You're not even remotely qualified to speak to me on this topic.

Your next paragraph is another non sequitur; consider it dismissed, obviously.

"A 12ga slug isn't firmly defined, there's no exact measurements or points which mean it is no longer a slug. It just changes to a different type of slug. They're all 12 ga slugs."

A 12 gauge slug is a slug that's 12 gauge, obviously. "12 gauge" denotes diameter (0.729"). That particular sabot slug is .675" diameter, which means it's almost small enough to be a 16 gauge slug (16 gauge = 0.663" diameter), and if 15 gauge guns had ever caught on, it would be almost dead-on for one of those (15 gauge = 0.677" diameter).

You + an idiot = 2 idiots

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The climate changes, no one claims it doesn't. But Climate Change as you suggest is just rebranded global warming which was and is a hoax, Al Gore proved that with his Inconvenient Truth film where all his predictions of swamped states and countries have never come to pass well after the target date that was given in the film.

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Thanks for the laugh, it's always funny to hear what liberals think about conservatives. Even though it's purely a work of fiction. With much of it actually being true of yourself. I especially like the bit about needing the "orange pig" to tell us what to think, while you regurgitate the 100% false CNN narrative.

When attempting to pierce armor, velocity is your friend. While mass and diameter combine for large and deep wounds in tissue, small, tough, high velocity projectiles do best on armor. Which is FAR more easily attained in a bottlenecked rifle cartridge than a shotshell. In fact, if you want to defeat armor, a shotshell is 180° from ideal. No, this was done for theatrics. Just as the basic concept of needing a whole bunch of different guns. Which is fine because I thoroughly enjoy watching Keanu show off the 3-gun skills he learned from Taran Butler (which is NOT Hollyweird BS) but in reality, you'd just want two guns and a bunch of magazines.

Signed, an educated, professional, Trump supporter with a high six figure income, no debt and a low tolerance for liberal stupidity.

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I don't give two hoots about the bullets in this very fun movie, but your leftist drivel is just pathetic.

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That's the crimp cap, not the nose of the slug.

How do you know they're not fluted underneath?

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"That's the crimp cap, not the nose of the slug."

You don't know what you're talking about. Slugs don't use "crimp caps":

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/5oDG2i6rwjU/hqdefault.jpg

Not that "crimp cap" means what you think it means (a crimp cap is for splicing electrical wires together). Something that closes up the top of the shell, such as a normal fold-over crimp or a disk, is only needed for shot shells, i.e., multiple pellets rather than a single, full-caliber slug.

Also, those shells are low-brass, which means they can't have much powder, which means the slugs can't have much velocity.

Also, those flutes don't increase penetration. They would actually decrease penetration compared to an otherwise identical slug without the flutes. The idea behind the design is that they have more penetration than a hollowpoint, while the flutes increase soft tissue damage compared to an otherwise identical slug/bullet without the flutes. They are a compromise between extreme soft tissue damage / low penetration of a hollowpoint and extreme penetration / low soft tissue damage of a normal solid.

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You don't know what you're talking about. Slugs don't use "crimp caps":


LOL yes they do.

https://youtu.be/ydnZ4LaQyhY?t=190

Already time-stamped it for you.

There's an entire community built around crimps, even for slugs.

That's why I asked you how do you know if the slugs are fluted underneath?

And you're wrong, FLUTES do increase penetration. Please watch the video I linked, which shows that due to the fluted design it INCREASES penetration.
https://youtu.be/zlYvmsWAgD8

The ones in the movie were round-nose slugs:


Except in the image it looks flat at the end of the shell, like a cap not a rounded slug.

That's why I said it looks like a cap, not a slug. Like in the image below:
https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/33132/gaep.jpg

A completely flat slug seems pointless, but if it's a cap with a fluted slug underneath then I can definitely see it being highly useful against fully armored opponents.

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"LOL yes they do. https://youtu.be/ydnZ4LaQyhY?t=190 Already time-stamped it for you. There's an entire community built around crimps, even for slugs."

Those are handloads. He even points out that the roll crimps didn't close completely (which is because they are not designed to be crimped over slugs). The ammunition in the movie was presented as boxed, factory ammunition (the boxes were shown).

"And you're wrong, FLUTES do increase penetration."

No, they don't. The flutes add resistance compared to an otherwise identical bullet/slug that doesn't have flutes. The added resistance increases soft tissue damage, but added resistance inherently decreases penetration, all else being equal. They have better penetration than hollowpoints; not better penetration than otherwise identical unfluted designs. Do you see any flutes on e.g., M995 AP4 or M948 SLAP bullets? No? Why not, if they increase penetration as you claim?

"Except in the image it looks flat at the end of the shell, like a cap not a rounded slug. That's why I said it looks like a cap, not a slug. Like in the image below:"

No, they are clearly rounded. All you have to do is look at them to see that they are rounded - https://i.imgur.com/SoPJULR.png

"A completely flat slug seems pointless, but if it's a cap with a fluted slug underneath then I can definitely see it being highly useful against fully armored opponents."

Fluted doesn't help. The slugs in your video defeated soft body armor because they are undersized (i.e., they aren't actually 12 gauge slugs, they are smaller diameter slugs with a sabot) and they are brass solids. They would have done it without the flutes as well. Smaller diameter for a given weight = increased sectional density (low sectional density is an inherent problem with actual 12 gauge slugs), and increased sectional density = increased penetration, all else being equal.

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The ammunition in the movie was presented as boxed, factory ammunition (the boxes were shown).


And? You can have custom crimps ordered all the time. Lots of people do it.


No, they are clearly rounded. All you have to do is look at them to see that they are rounded


The one in the bottom right hand corner looks like it might have a protuberant center. The one above it to the left is smooth around the top with slight indentations around the circumference between the inner rolled crimp.

The two in the corner on the far right have flat surfaces.

The slugs wouldn't have completely flat surfaces like that. They should be convex moving from the base upwards with smooth edges on the outer surfaces. Like in the image below:
https://lodge-cdn.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/wp-content/uploads/BSS2533-Web-1024x683.jpg

Note that the design of the surfaces of the slugs in the screen cap you linked look closer to these crimp caps:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71RDqzFPuRL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

Given the uneven surfaces I would hazard they might be some kind of malleable surface, probably a very, very light aluminum.

Fluted doesn't help. The slugs in your video defeated soft body armor because they are undersized (i.e., they aren't actually 12 gauge slugs, they are smaller diameter slugs with a sabot) and they are brass solids. They would have done it without the flutes as well.


No, that's not true at all.

I time-stamped the video where they note that the fluted design on the slug helped it to perform and do what only two other rounds were capable of doing: penetrating a 30 lb lead plate, which is thicker than any ceramic-plated body armor.

https://youtu.be/iIP6EQpeeFI?t=459

So, as I mentioned in my previous comment, if there were stylized crimp caps and fluted slugs in the shells, it's completely possible that they would have demolished the armor the way they did in the film.

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"And? You can have custom crimps ordered all the time. Lots of people do it."

Show me a factory 12 gauge slug cartridge that has a crimp or cap covering the top of the slug.

"The one in the bottom right hand corner looks like it might have a protuberant center. The one above it to the left is smooth around the top with slight indentations around the circumference between the inner rolled crimp. The two in the corner on the far right have flat surfaces."

Is that a joke? They all have rounded surfaces. It must be weird going through life not being able to tell the difference between a rounded and flat surface simply by looking at it.

"No, that's not true at all."

Yes, it is, and you fail Physics 101 forever. Again, why do you think that military armor-piercing bullets don't have flutes?

"I time-stamped the video where they note that the fluted design on the slug helped it to perform and do what only two other rounds were capable of doing:"

What are you talking about? They didn't say anything at all about the flutes at that time stamp. The flutes are counterproductive if maximum penetration is your only goal. An identical slug minus the flutes would not only have less resistance, but it would have more mass as well, giving it a higher sectional density, and it would have more resistance to deformation. Deformation is bad for penetration (but good for soft tissue damage, which is why hollow-points are designed to deform), which is why armor-piercing bullets are made of hard materials, rather than e.g., lead.

"penetrating a 30 lb lead plate, which is thicker than any ceramic-plated body armor."

It's also a lot softer. Ceramic plates are very hard and brittle; they shatter upon impact with the bullet, absorbing much of the bullet's energy.

"So, as I mentioned in my previous comment, if there were stylized crimp caps and fluted slugs in the shells, it's completely possible that they would have demolished the armor the way they did in the film."

The flutes are counterproductive for defeating armor. Defeating armor isn't the purpose of those flutes, as I've already told you more than once. The purpose is to increase soft tissue damage compared to a normal solid bullet design, while at the same time having more penetration than a hollow-point. It's a compromise between a hollow-point's low penetration / high soft tissue damage, and a normal solid's high penetration / low tissue damage. Also, those shells in the movie are low-brass, which means they can't have the velocity they need for defeating armor in the first place.

I'll also reiterate that the fluted slugs that you've linked to are not 12 gauge slugs. They are smaller diameter than 12 gauge, with a sabot to make up the difference, i.e., keep them centered in the 12 gauge bore.

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Show me a factory 12 gauge slug cartridge that has a crimp or cap covering the top of the slug.


Re-read what I said. You can order custom crimp caps.


Is that a joke? They all have rounded surfaces. It must be weird going through life not being able to tell the difference between a rounded and flat surface simply by looking at it.


WRONG. Look at the image you posted. On some of the shells you can clearly see where the surface is flat -- notice how the light doesn't bend until it gets to the edges. Light bends where there's curvature, and the light is mostly flat across the surfaces of the shells.

https://i.imgur.com/vpSb5iN.png

As I said, the one in the bottom right has a protuberant convex design, but the others have mostly flat surfaces like a cap. Otherwise you should see the blocking of the light from the curvature of the nose to the base of the rolled crimp edge to create a shadow, which doesn't happen on the other shells.

What are you talking about? They didn't say anything at all about the flutes at that time stamp.


Watch the rest of the clip. They explicitly state that that particular slug was only ONE of three types of ammo to penetrate that lead plate.

It's also a lot softer. Ceramic plates are very hard and brittle; they shatter upon impact with the bullet, absorbing much of the bullet's energy.


And did you see what it did to the steel plate? You would die from the concussive force if you got hit by that thing.

The flutes are counterproductive for defeating armor. Defeating armor isn't the purpose of those flutes, as I've already told you more than once.


Except you're completely wrong, since the fluted slug easily passed through TWO Level-III Kevlar vests and kept going.

Also, the slugs are 10mm in .12 gauge shell casings, but still effective against body armor and other heavy objects.

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"Re-read what I said. You can order custom crimp caps."

And surely someone has done such a ridiculous and pointless thing before, and you can show me a picture of a 12 gauge slug cartridge made by e.g., Remington, Winchester, Federal, etc., that has a "custom crimp cap" from the factory, right?

In any case, your wild speculation isn't supported by anything shown onscreen and can therefore be dismissed out of hand.

"WRONG. Look at the image you posted. On some of the shells you can clearly see where the surface is flat --"

Utterly absurd. Those are absolutely not flat surfaces; none of them; not even close. They are irregular surfaces, because they are poorly made movie props, but they are all rounded, i.e., they are all clearly lower around the edges than they are in the center.

"Watch the rest of the clip. They explicitly state that that particular slug was only ONE of three types of ammo to penetrate that lead plate."

So? What does that have to do with flutes? As I said, they would have done even better without the flutes, because they would have had more mass which = greater sectional density and they would have held together / resisted deformation better.

Again, the purpose of those flutes is not to penetrate armor, it's to increase soft tissue damage. In the description of the video you linked to it says:

"These are 17mm ( .675 caliber) versions of Lehigh Defense's xtreme Pentrator bullets."

Now let's see what Lehigh Defense has to say about those flutes:

"The magic happens with the nose design where the radial flutes force the hydraulic energy inward and then as the energy is restricted, it accelerates outward creating high pressure spikes damaging surrounding tissue. Kind of similar to sticking your thumb over a garden hose."

https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=59&ajaxfilter=f1-product-type,ammo/f2-gun-type,handgun/f3-technology,xtreme-penetrator

Note that those high pressure spikes inherently result in additional resistance, meaning they would penetrate better without the flutes. That's why military-issue armor-piercing bullets don't have flutes.

"And did you see what it did to the steel plate? You would die from the concussive force if you got hit by that thing."

Not necessarily. And for the record, an ordinary non-armor-piercing 5.56mm NATO or 7.62mm NATO bullet would penetrate that 1/4" steel plate with ease, which is why the idea of armor-piercing ammunition for a 12 gauge shotgun is ridiculous. Even if you can achieve it by using a hard sabot slug, you still have bulky ammunition and the resulting low magazine capacity compared to a centerfire rifle.

"Except you're completely wrong, since the fluted slug easily passed through TWO Level-III Kevlar vests and kept going."

So? It would have done that without the flutes too. Again, the flutes have nothing to do with armor penetration, as I've told you multiple times now.

"Also, the slugs are 10mm in .12 gauge shell casings, but still effective against body armor and other heavy objects."

At this point it's blatantly obvious that you don't have a clue about firearms/ammunition. The slugs in the video you linked to are 17mm, not 10mm, and there's no such thing as a ".12 gauge". If there were such a thing, its bore would be huge, like the size of a bowling ball or something. With gauge, the smaller the number, the bigger the bore, so 10 gauge is bigger than 12, and 8 gauge is bigger than 10, and so on. Just think how big a .12 gauge would be. It would make the massive 2 bore/gauge look like a pea shooter.

Also, LOL at you ignoring that the movie shells are low-brass.

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And surely someone has done such a ridiculous and pointless thing before, and you can show me a picture of a 12 gauge slug cartridge made by e.g., Remington, Winchester, Federal, etc., that has a "custom crimp cap" from the factory, right?


Presupposition. Nowhere in the movie does it say that those are Remington.

Prove that they're using non-custom factory shells.

Utterly absurd. Those are absolutely not flat surfaces; none of them; not even close.


WRONG.

https://i.imgur.com/vpSb5iN.png

I believe you may be trolling at this point.

So? It would have done that without the flutes too. Again, the flutes have nothing to do with armor penetration, as I've told you multiple times now.


Re-read your original post.

The fluted slug defeated two layers of Level III kevlar in real life.

Your original claim was proven wrong.

At this point it's blatantly obvious that you don't have a clue about firearms/ammunition. The slugs in the video you linked to are 17mm, not 10mm,


WRONG.

https://i.imgur.com/NlDQ5iN.png

They're 10mm in 12 gauge casings.

and there's no such thing as a ".12 gauge".


A misplaced period and you focus on that instead of the fact that the facts prove you're wrong?

I know you're absolutely trolling at this point and I'll leave you to respond with whatever nonsense you have to spout to keep your ego intact.

Good day, sir.

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"Presupposition. Nowhere in the movie does it say that those are Remington."

Given that I never said any such thing, this is a non sequitur from you. Consider it dismissed out of hand.

"Prove that they're using non-custom factory shells."

The factory box that they came in is shown in the movie. "Factory ammunition" intrinsically mean "not custom", and there's no point to putting a cap over a slug anyway, so why would anyone custom order slugs that way? There's no onscreen evidence that there's a magical slug hiding under a non-existent rounded "crimp cap" propelled by magical power which can generate sufficient velocity to be "armor-piercing" despite the low-brass shells, so your fan-wanking can legitimately be dismissed out of hand.

"Re-read your original post. The fluted slug defeated two layers of Level III kevlar in real life."

The flutes had nothing to do with it.

"Your original claim was proven wrong."

False. My original claim is about 12 gauge slugs. The slugs in your video are not 12 gauge slugs, they are smaller diameter than 12 gauge, and they use a sabot to center them in a 12 gauge bore, as I've already pointed out multiple times.

"WRONG. https://i.imgur.com/vpSb5iN.png I believe you may be trolling at this point."

Your mere gainsaying is dismissed.

"WRONG. https://i.imgur.com/NlDQ5iN.png They're 10mm in 12 gauge casings."

Is that another joke? Have you ever even seen a 140-grain, 10mm bullet before? Obviously not. That slug he's holding in the picture is WAY bigger than a 140-grain 10mm bullet. Just read the description in the video you linked to, which I already posted, but I'll post it again:

"These are 17mm ( .675 caliber) versions of Lehigh Defense's xtreme Pentrator bullets."

The Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator bullets are 10mm, not the slugs. Also, look at the comparison picture right at the start of the video you linked to. Here's a screenshot:

https://i.imgur.com/NUkd2Xk.jpg

The "12 gauge" slug is on the left; the 10mm (AKA: .40 caliber) Lehigh defense bullet is on the right. See the drastic difference in size? I'll reiterate that you don't have a clue about what you're talking about. No one who knows the first thing about firearms/ammunition would EVER mistake a huge 546-grain, 17mm slug for a comparatively tiny 140-grain, 10mm/.40 caliber bullet. That's like mistaking a golf ball for a baseball.

"A misplaced period"

Your "misplaced period" is one of several things that shows that you don't know what you're talking about. You put it there because you've seen decimal points in front of caliber designations such as .45 ACP, or .357 Magnum, but you don't know enough about the topic to realize that it makes no sense at all in front of a gauge designation. Hell, you can look at a massive 17mm slug and insist that it's 10mm, even after being corrected (LOL). You're the poster child for ultracrepidarianism.

"and you focus on that instead of the fact that the facts prove you're wrong?"

Comical Irony Alert

"I know you're absolutely trolling at this point and I'll leave you to respond with whatever nonsense you have to spout to keep your ego intact."

Your laughable attempt to redefine the term "trolling" is dismissed. At this point, anyone reading this who knows even the most basic things about firearms/ammunition knows that you've made a fool of yourself.

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That's not an armor piercing slug but then again, I've actually used these and others like them, on live tissue.

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Interesting. What was the circumstance?

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I think they were armor piercing because the slugs had lasers that shoot out once they hit an object. Apparently his cloth armor is so strong too, it can prevent impact of falling off a tall building.

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Actually, rifled slugs are EXCELLENT for armor piercing.

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Your mere gainsaying is dismissed.

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