the big flaw in June's plan - The Handmaid's Tale (2017) Discussion

[–] winslow (1318) 5 years ago

They stayed behind because June stayed and they look up to her.

It sorta got into the kids being indoctrinated, but I suppose they trusted the Marthas as much as anyone and it was on them to convince the kids.

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[–] UncleRuckis (2548) 5 years ago

Look at Slavery in the US. Slaves were born into that life and very indoctrinated by the slavemasters, yet many would still risk all to head north just for the slim chance to be free, despite often not really knowing exactly which way North was or what would happen if they made it.

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[–] diagoro (483) 5 years ago

But in slavery, the salves were treated brutally, denied every human right, and those who escaped were often adults who could reason their situation. In the show were dealing with children who have been coddled for the most part, where the youngest ones may not recall their parents, and aren't old enough to reason.

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[–] Wint3rFir3 (6911) 5 years ago

I think the indoctrination actually works in favour of escape. They're not free children, they're raised to obey. It's not even about the possibility of freedom, although this show is suggesting there's something inherent about the desire for it - if they're told to escape, they will because what would they do otherwise? Plus it's probably the most excitement they've ever experienced. They're being subjected to all this stuff that they never have been - the reading of the book, for example. It seems boring to us, but these kids are starved for enjoyment and deprived of everything.

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[–] exatera (3942) 5 years ago

Well, on a separate note, I've always thought that the whole idea of Gilead is entirely unrealistic, in no small part because it has literally zero in terms of entertainment, not even music. Hard to imagine that anyone male would fight for this regime, not to mention how volatile the situation is with the women if you don't let them read AND remove all other entertainment from the equation.

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[–] Wint3rFir3 (6911) 5 years ago

Actually, there is entertainment for the dudes. Not only brothels, where contraband from the past is available, but we've seen that many of the commanders have things they shouldn't have. Waterford gave June a girly magazine, for example. All the commanders seem to have books as well as alcohol and art. Plus, in this season we've seen that they hold dances in Washington, so they must have some access to music.

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[–] exatera (3942) 5 years ago

Do they have theater? Movies? Internet? (Maybe the concept was somewhat easier to sell to the public when the book first came out pre-internet, but it's a much tougher sell now.) And what does a girly magazine have to do with anything considering that legally she isn't even allowed to read? Same with dances in Washington - what about the rest of the country? How does that qualify as entertainment available to all in Gilead?

Also, the brothels are only for the higher-ups, not all men. Besides, even if ALL men have access to something, it doesn't exactly promote stability if none of the women do.

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[–] bohemianroxie (2471) 5 years ago

What about these horrible ceremonies?
Forget that they're ritualized rape and that the wife has to participate but what about how unpleasant it would really be for most guys? Would men really forgo science and implement the most unpleasant path to fertility?

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[–] exatera (3942) 5 years ago

Yeah, I think many men wouldn't be able to get it up under the circumstances.

In addition, those childbirth ceremonies are just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Every time they had one on the show, I wondered how everyone could participate with a straight face.

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[–] bohemianroxie (2471) 5 years ago

I know..Ha! Exactly what I was thinking on both counts..
Guess the guys need to be stocked up on their pills.

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[–] Wint3rFir3 (6911) 5 years ago

The point I'm trying to make is that, however few, outlets for entertainment do exist. Yes, only higher ups get to enjoy these privileges - much in the same way that the 1% enjoys exclusive privileges in our current society. But they exist. And it doesn't seem like they're that hard to come by if you make a few connections, which nearly everyone in this show has done.

But if what you're saying is that this society can't work because regular people are deprived of entertainment, I guess I'm not sure what you mean. Underprivileged people exist now without such things, not only in western society (to a far lesser degree), but globally.

Gilead isn't going to fail because of the excessive deprivation - it's succeeding precisely because of it. If you think of book burnings and how this was perceived to be a successful preventative measure against education and thus rebellion, this society employs this kind of perception but to the extreme. I can't speak to the longevity of the regime because we haven't seen the end of this show, but it seems like so far so good.

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[–] exatera (3942) 5 years ago

Underprivileged people have a TON of entertainment available to them today for free or for very little money - exponentially more than ever in history.

Gilead wouldn't have been an appealing prospect for a multitude of reasons (primarily because the men don't have any meaningful rights in it either, not just the women), but amusement/entertainment is certainly one of them. It was something that struck me immediately, that they literally have nothing to pass the time.

Anyway, my original point was that there is no way children would willingly leave their parents, and I still stand by it.

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[–] Wint3rFir3 (6911) 5 years ago

Agree to disagree about the entertainment available to people.

Gilead wasn't implemented with the promise of more fun times. It was enforced on the masses - whoever wasn't fast enough in leaving before things got rough. It's not like everyone was invited to the table and asked what they thought of Gilead's rules before something was decided upon. Seems like a lot of rich people with political, military and bank-related connections made the call for everyone with no one's best interests at heart. Kind of a desperate last gasp to save the dying population.

By all means, stand by your OP. I just tend to disagree that the children would kick and scream about anything, mostly because these kids are uneducated and therefore lack the skills to express this rebellion. We've never once seen anyone but the adults lash out and even that is done in private. This is a very stunted, very and highly regulated society. No one kicks and screams.

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[–] exatera (3942) 5 years ago

You realize one can download literally an unlimited amount of movies, shows, music or books nowadays for free, right? If you don't want to deal with the risk of downloading, Hulu / Netflix / YouTube are really inexpensive and can provide one with more entertainment than is possible to watch in one's lifetime. I see practically unlimited movies at theaters for $24 a month. Live theater is not necessarily expensive either - there are many struggling actors, and many performances to see at $15-30 a pop.

Really not sure how the disadvantaged cannot partake in anything these days, but the bigger point was that the arts & entertainment are there, readily available, as opposed to Gilead where nothing of the kind is being produced. Gilead doesn't seem to produce a lot of things actually, what with all the men being either in the military or working the land like Econopeople.

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[–] Wint3rFir3 (6911) 5 years ago

The internet isn't free. Neither is owning a TV, phone or a computer, etc. For a lot of people, spending $24 a month on something that isn't food, rent or utilities is actually a lot of money. Most people in this position would likely never admit to it, so it's not a common thing to hear about. But it's quite common for many people to have to live with. If you think you're disadvantaged, yet you can easily afford these things, I would reconsider that label.

I misunderstood your point, I suppose. It seems like you were suggesting that no one would agree to this new world Gilead because of the lack of entertainment, whereas I was posing the point that they didn't, it was forced on them by people in power as a last ditch effort to procure more births and save the planet.

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[–] exatera (3942) 5 years ago

No, the main reason that no one would agree to Gilead is of course because in it they lose 99% of their rights. I already said, the lack of any and all entertainment was just something that immediately stood out to me, but obviously as a reason it's much more trivial.

And no, I am not at all disadvantaged, I just didn't understand the point you were trying to make with that. As far as I can tell, entertainment is easily accessible to everyone nowadays. Certainly much more so (and much more of it) than at any point in history.

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[–] diagoro (483) 5 years ago

I think the closest relation we can make to Giliad is North Korea......Though there they seem to have local entertainment, and South Korean movies are smuggled in. But overall, hugely depressed population, were the elites and ruling class have all the power, all the luxuries, and all the resources.

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[–] exatera (3942) 5 years ago

I think even they might have more freedom in what to wear, what careers and interests to pursue, etc.

That's aside from the fact that women can work, read, and write.

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[–] diagoro (483) 5 years ago

Women work in Giliad....slavery is still work.

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[–] Thespear (134) 5 years ago

Besides there are plenty of suggestions in the show that MANY people are not necessarily TRUE believers. It seems likely that there are many underground sources for 'entertainment'. Just like currently in Saudi there are frequent underground parties with alcohol, drugs and western music etc.

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[–] ATG6 (3000) 5 years ago

yeah, the Commanders' kids didn't have it so bad, nice houses, wait staff, bright future. they may have missed their mothers, but they weren't going to live with their mothers, they were going to go live in icy Canada, with foster parents, always a roll of the dice. not to mention the brainwashing.

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[–] ATG6 (3000) 5 years ago

The other big flaw is that all the Marthas and handmaids will be tortured and then killed for helping the kids escape, and at least one of them will rat out June as the ringleader, and then she'll end up on the wall.

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[–] exatera (3942) 5 years ago

This is why I don't understand why the handmaids stayed behind. And btw, that scene with the other handmaids finding June the morning after in the woods and carrying her may have looked nice cinematically, but I really fail to see how they are going to get away with it. It's not like they won't be noticed once they come out of the woods, and June needs medical help that they won't be able to handle on their own.

Btw, why did June even run into the woods? If she had a gun on her all along, she could have easily killed the Guardian the moment he approached, he was the only one there anyway, and there had already been so much gunfire by then that it really wouldn't have attracted any extra attention.

So many things that plain didn't make sense...

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[–] Thespear (134) 5 years ago

June ran into the woods to draw the guard away so that the kids could escape. After episode 6, June has become single minded in her desire to free as many children as possible...now that she has little hope of getting to her own daughter. She is less concerned with her own survival.

Season 4 will explain how they survive. Perhaps with the news of the children escaping more Marthas and Soldiers will be inspired to be supportive of a rebellion to overthrow or resist the Gilead military structure. This has happened before in history.

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[–] exatera (3942) 5 years ago

I don't know if I'll keep watching though. It's just objectively not a good show anymore, and insults the viewers' intelligence often. All season I kept waiting for some "a-ha" moment, but it never came.

With so many great things to watch these days, I am not sure this one justifies the time spent on it, and I keep giving the writers of this show chance after chance for two years already, hoping all the while that there will be some payoff. I am not sure at this point that the series will ever right itself, or that that payoff will ever come.

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[–] exatera (3942) 5 years ago

Btw, as you were writing that, did you ever stop to think if your explanation made sense? That guardian was the only one there! HE was the only one to lead anyone away from! So once again, why not kill him right there, where I might add you had the cover of that brick fence, rather than run into the woods and get shot yourself?

The whole thing was ridiculous.

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[–] Thespear (134) 5 years ago

I'll have to watch it again but I believe the guard had a radio which June forced him to radio in that there was "no problem"BEFORE SHE KILLED HIM!!!. June knew he would not expect her to have a gun so taking him AWAY from the kids makes sense completely.

One thing I give THT top marks for is its very realistic portrayal of human cruelty. I read where the producers confirmed that EVERYTHING depicted in THT HAS happened in real life. I have read a few commentators expressing incredulity that such a society could form or be sustained in the US today and I wonder: was the 2nd world war that far away? Do these people have any idea how people are currently oppressed in the world today? I think these people are either in denial or dangerously naive and complacent.

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[–] sarahb2 (69) 3 years ago

I just watched this episode last night, and when I reached that scene I had two thoughts:

It's daylight. June is a red blotch on a brown landscape, not far from the airport. How is it that NOBODY in the airport guard towers saw her lying out there? Somebody must have heard the gunshot when she shot the Gaurdian. Nobody went and looked?

Wait a minute - nobody went looking for the guard she shot? Didn't anybody notice that Guardian Bob never came back from the woods? For like, hours and hours AFTER he said it was all clear?

Also, did those other handmaids just hang out in the woods all night? Don't they have households who are wondering where the heck they went?

I don't think this storyline was really thought out...

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[–] exatera (3942) 3 years ago

I don't think any of the story lines from the last season were well thought out, to be honest.

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[–] Druff (1446) 4 years ago

I thought of this flaw also, but I admit it didn't occur to me until the scene where the first Martha and child arrive at the house, and the girl starts asking questions and says she doesn't remember what things were like before Gilead. I thought, "Oooooh, shit, of course, many of the girls are going to freak out and not want to leave." But they just dropped the issue before the scene was even over. Not great writing, but oh well. An infinitesimal flaw relative to the rest of the show. No point in dwelling on it.

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[–] exatera (3942) 4 years ago

Oh, that's where we disagree then. I think the show is full of flaws, with occasional worthy moments interspersed throughout.

Ever since they've gone off book, it just hasn't been a quality series anymore.

I mean, the acting is always great, but it can only do so much to salvage the writing.

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[–] Druff (1446) 4 years ago

Sure. Whatever.

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