MovieChat Forums > The Handmaid's Tale Discussion > Odd fantasy book were christians act lik...

Odd fantasy book were christians act like muslims


I read the book as a teen. I loved dystopian stories, and didn't know a lot about religion. It seemed odd at the time the government was religious, when really I think it would be more like a communist/socialist nation. Look at China, they force women to have abortions because they believe in social programming, just like the left does.

I think what had the writer confused is her own stupidity. Yeah, fundamentalists have odd beliefs, just like people who think cows are holy, or that the dali lama really has lived bfore, or think muhammad flew to heaven on a magic flying donkey. But I've seen nothing in the chrisitan religion to show they would eventually turn to rape as a culture the way muslims have.

The author, being *beep* insane and ignorant, didn't care what women suffered through in islam, and instead just loathed her own culture. As such she saw white christians becoming monsters because... reasons.

Star Wars was more plausible then this story.

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I don't think it's really Christianity that Atwood is focusing on in the story, but more gender politics. It's not like practically ANY of the female characters are truly happy....they've just been assigned roles by the government, with a few being lucky enough to land near the top. The officials' wives are still just "help meets" (even if they get better food and a bit more freedom.)

The Gilead regime in power also isn't sincerly faithful, but crafted (as the book's epilogue explains) to what would be palatable to the largest percentage of the public. The majority of Western Civilization is Xtian, so the Gilead government founders chose a Biblical model. (In the same way, the domestics in the story, such as the "Marthas" and "Aunt Lydias", are named after commercial brands women in society historically trusted...Martha Stewart, Lydia Pinkham, etc.)

These choices were aimed at creating a smooth(er) transition.
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Agree 100% with the OP. This story is just another in a long, long line of Leftist "cautionary" fantasies where Leftist authors project all the evils of a totalitarian communist/socialist dictatorship onto a conservative and/or Christian society. No basis in fact other than the prejudices, hatreds and fears of Leftists. It's a close sister genre to the many "Evil Redneck" stories like Deliverance and Winter's Bone that conjure up horror stories about degenerate rural people from what Liberals call "The Flyover States".

These propaganda pieces are pretty much the modern version of what the Nazis were doing when they made movies like "Jud Suss". Sensationalist trash calculated to provoke fear and hatred of groups they oppose.

And as everyone will ask, I am an agnostic city dweller.

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This seems quite the spurious argument. Speculative fiction is a field of "what if". Anyone is free to disagree with conclusions, of course, but ad hominem attacks on political orientation are becoming rather tired, aren't they? Can't we find something more interesting to discuss?

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Sure, this might be speculative fiction. But it should still be some realism to this story, especially if you want people to believe that this could happen to the US in the 21rst century. This though is just a horrible leftist attack against Christians and Conservatives, that has nothing whatsoever to do with what anybody in the Western world (except for maybe some small weird sect somewhere) wants.

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Well you shoot your whole argument in the foot with "except for maybe some small weird sect somewhere" -- this story is about what happens if that small weird sect gets power. It's really pretty irritating that so many conservatives online appear to be so thin-skinned that they perceive an attack on their ideology behind every shadow. It makes for very boring arguments that have absolutely no basis in either reality or logic.

(I halfway believe that most of these arguments are meant ironically by faux conservatives, and that no real conservative would make them, but who knows for sure?)

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*Well you shoot your whole argument in the foot with "except for maybe some small weird sect somewhere" -- this story is about what happens if that small weird sect gets power.*
Yeah right... It is virtually impossible for a small sect to take the power over the US like that. They would at least need the support from 50 % of the population.

*It's really pretty irritating that so many conservatives online appear to be so thin-skinned that they perceive an attack on their ideology behind every shadow. It makes for very boring arguments that have absolutely no basis in either reality or logic.*
Thin-skinned? If you really don't think that this story is an attack on the conservative Christians, you simply don't get it at all. Just look at how some people dress up as the handmaids as an attempt to make a point about abortion "rights"! They seem to take the story very seriously...

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You really haven't been paying attention if you think anyone needs 50% of anything to get power in the U.S.

Control the money, control the media, control the machines, and who cares what the people think?

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So true.

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Yeah, but if you've come to control the money and the media, you're not a small sect anymore, are you? Then you have become a new establishment. And in the US, you need a lot of popular support (like 50 %) before you reach that point.

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Yeap, that's one of the thing I find really interesting. Feminists / Diversitarians / Modern Left keep thinking that they're some kind of rebels against a system dominated by old conservative traditional white males.

And the truth is that they control most of the media, social media and Internet included. They control Academy. They control Deep State. And they control science in those fields that can have political interest (like human biology). And this is the situation in North-America, Australia and Western Europe. Japan and Korea escaped by a whisker.

They're the system. They're the new power, and they don't want that to change. They're the new conservatives. The new traditionalists. but for some reason they need to imagine themselves as some outcast guys.

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Yes, indeed. They might have been the underdogs sixty years ago. But today? Not really…

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I would have to agree, and wrote about it on another thread. I'll cut and paste my assessment of this book/tv show here:

This entire book is an illustration of Margaret Atwood's beliefs and fears as an atheist, feminazi liberal in Canada. She originally wrote the book in response to President Reagan's actions in the 80s, and used a lot of symbolism in her book.

The book basically shows that she hates Christians, she hates men, and shows what she wishes would happen to Christians everywhere in America, as punishment for all their "slights" towards her and others like herself, real or imagined. The book is basically a giant turd she wishes had fallen on Americans years ago, but nobody really paid attention to until the tv show came out.

I can tell you right now that such a coup could NEVER happen, under any circumstances, and no Christian in his or her right mind would EVER support the wicked things the Sons of Jacob did to society in the eastern US. Plus, our government has backup plans in place to prevent such a coup from ever happening.

It should be noted that the book indicated that Gilead did not last forever, and the entire story is derived from tapes Offred used to record her experiences, which were discovered 200 years later and studied at a university somewhere in North America. So apparently the Sons of Jacob got what they deserved eventually.


It's one reason I chose not to read the book or watch the show, but I did read ABOUT it from other sources.

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Thank you! Yes, it is one thing to not agree with conservative Christians on most issues. That would be fine. But writing a book like this and expect anybody to take it seriously is ridiculous. Unfortunately, many leftists do think that this is what President Trump is planning right now. But I too can assure them that it could never happen within a foreseeable future, because it would never be possible. So yes, this is just one stinking nasty turd. I only wish that more people could see that!

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Amen, Furienna! :D

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Hmm..I didn't realize taking it seriously was a prerequisite for watching the show.
I don't think it resembles in the slightest the current USA politics or religion. If anything it most closely resembles that of Islam and some Muslim countries..
Anyone that thinks it is a real threat for the west and watches it for that reason probably wishes it were so they could have something else to complain about. Anyone that takes it so seriously that they can't even try and watch it shouldn't consider it such a threat either.

This is dystopian fiction, folks, and I happen to be a big fan of Dystopia and Post-Apocalyptic fiction and it's very well done and even, in its own way, grimly entertaining..
Some of us watch it for that.

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Well, it's a good thing that you see it as just fiction.
But I don't believe that the women who dress up as handmaids to make a point about abortions share that opinion.

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I'm pro choice..I'll always be pro choice.
But if you or anyone thinks nothing has changed and we are bordering on living like handmaids then they're just as obtuse as the extreme right to lifers.

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What a ridiculous book and T.V series. Caucasians would not take to the same level as the interbred Arabs. THe reason why so much crazy sh** goes on in Muslim countries is because of the inherent low I.Q which is brought down even more by marring family members (look into it).

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What about interbred Caucasians? Uncoincidentally, many are in the southern bible belt.

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Dude, that's just ludicrous. You're comparing a cultural norm that affects hundreds of millions of people with a situation in some specific local group.

Inbreeding in Islam is a cultural rule. It's so common that it decreases the average IQ of whole countries. Mohammad himself married his cousin, and he's the top role model guided by God himself. And you're comparing that with some hillbillies?? WTF?

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Chill dude. It was tongue in cheek. Nor was I making any such direct comparison you're accusing me of. My main contention was with this sentence "Caucasians would not take to the same level as interbred Arabs". Well, this is speculative dystopian sci-fi. What if the Caucasian religious fundamentalists that practice inbreeding in our country took over the government? Why the hell wouldn't they take things to the same level?

My point is the OP appears to wrongly make it about race when it's about religious fundamentalism. As a society it's our secularism that sets us apart.

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Well, this is speculative dystopian sci-fi. What if the Caucasian religious fundamentalists that practice inbreeding in our country took over the government?

Nope. This is just bad sci-fi. Not to say agenda-driven sci-fi.

Speculative and dystopian need to make sense, to be coherent. They can't just be random and justify with a 'oh, it's a fantasy' excuse. Each system and/or religion has its own problems, flaws and strengths. Among Christians, fundamentalists becoming mainstream is not one of them. The closest thing were Puritans in US, and not even there they reached the power. When it grows mainstream, Christendom uses to become conservative, probably corrupt and often put on appearances, though lenient and non fundamentalist. Parallel state-like power structures are very common in Christian history.

The society in this story is more of a boogeyman labeled as 'Christians' because this is one of the scape goats of our time (the other one are white males).

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"Nope. This is just bad sci-fi."

Cite where I said I thought it was good sci-fi. You can't because I don't. You're just trying to find something to get outraged over because it's an innate part of your white victimhood persecution complex. You need to get over it and stop using it as an excuse and a crutch. Your whiteness isn't what is holding you back.

"Among Christians, fundamentalists becoming mainstream is not one of them."

lolz. This show doesn't depict fundamentalists "becoming mainstream". The fundamentalists seize control of the US government by force in a coup d'état. It's the threat of extinction from a mass infertility epidemic that catalyzes a moral panic that empowers the religious fundamentalists. You might want to try watching the show you're critiquing before wasting my time offering ignorant analysis of a show you clearly never bothered to watch much less try to understand.

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• "Cite where I said I thought it was good sci-fi."

You said it was speculative. In sci-fi genre, being labeled as such involves a minimum of quality. This hasn't enough quality to be considere as such

• "You're just trying to find something to get outraged over because it's an innate part of your white victimhood persecution complex. You need to get over it and stop using it as an excuse and a crutch."

Insults/name telling/personal attacs

• "lolz. This show doesn't depict fundamentalists "becoming mainstream". The fundamentalists seize control of the US government by force in a coup d'état."

So controlling the government and the whole country is not enough to be considered 'mainstream'. If you say so... XDDDDD

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"In sci-fi genre, being labeled as such involves a minimum of quality."

This is hilarious. You're desperately reaching because you know you're wrong and just made a total ass out of yourself. There are no minimum quality requirements when calling sci-fi "speculative" you airhead.

"Insults/name telling/personal attacs"

Sometimes, the truth really hurts. If you find the truth insulting, maybe you should change your behavior.

"So controlling the government and the whole country is not enough to be considered 'mainstream'."

lulz. Like I said, you should educate yourself by watching what you're critiquing instead of trying to defend your gross ignorance.

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• "This is hilarious. You're desperately reaching because you know you're wrong and just made a total ass out of yourself."

Insults/name telling/personal attacks

• "lulz. Like I said, you should educate yourself by watching what you're critiquing instead of trying to defend your gross ignorance."

Insults/name telling/personal attacks

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There's nothing to answer since your commentary had no arguments, just insults. It seems you ran out of arguments and resorted to name telling. That means that was all, thank you for intervening.

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Well yeah, when you make up BS about sci-fi needing to meet minimum quality requirements to be called "speculative" of course I have nothing to add and will just lulz over how unintelligent you sound. I marvel you actually expected to be taken seriously after failing with an argument that transparently ridiculous.

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What do you mean you haven’t seen anything in Christianity to show they would eventually turn into a rape culture? The Bible is full of verses about women as property and God telling men to go into cities and kill everyone but the virgins to take for themselves.

Numbers 31:17So now, kill all the boys, and kill every woman who has had relations with a man, 18but spare for yourselves every girl who has never had relations with a man.

Or the verses where women aren’t allowed to teach men or even speak in church?
1 Timothy 2:11 A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet.

And
1 Corinthians 14:34women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says

I don’t know where you got the idea that Christianity doesn’t have the same misogynistic roots as the other religions that came out of the Middle East but you’re wrong.

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Oh, god, thanks for posting this - I can't believe people willingly associate themselves with something so abhorrent, and yet most people actually do. People who don't adhere to any sort of organized religion are a very small minority in the world.


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Right, they seem to want to ignore the ugly parts and use the ones that allow them to feel superior to non-believers. Pretty gross to worship a God who does half of the things in that book.

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they seem to want to ignore the ugly parts and use the ones that allow them to feel superior to non-believers.

And what's the problem with that? It's up to Christians to decide what books must be used a moral guide. If the Vatican itself decides that most of the Old Testament is not valid as dogma and can be ignored when it comes to moral commands... why do you have a problem with it? Who the hell are you to tell them what books they should or shouldn't obey? Let Christians decide by themselves.

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What do you mean you haven’t seen anything in Christianity to show they would eventually turn into a rape culture?
[And then some parts from the Old Testament]


Those are ancient oral stories. You don't have to follow them or use them as a model. Neither Christians. The Vatican itself doesn't accept most of the Old Testament as dogma or christian model.

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So the Christian God, didn’t command those things?

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The last two I posted were from the New Testament. . .

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They're Epistles, what means they're early christian writings.

You should understand that for Christians, Muslims and Jews, the ONLY mandatory part is what their God himself commands. The rest is open to debate.

The Old Testament is considered as heavily distorted by oral transmission. For Christians, the only key part are the Gospels, written by witnesses a few decades after Jesus died. For Muslims, the Q'uran, written in the last years of Mohammad when he hired scribes to put it on paper. Jews don't have anything like that, so everything (literally) can be interpreted and adapted to modern times.

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Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God divinely inspired, not some of it, all of it.

The gospels weren’t written a few decades after Jesus’ recorded death. They were written much later, the earliest one is Mark and that was written 40 years later, given the lifespan of people in the Bronze Age and the fact that he was not an apostle or even mentioned in the gospels, He couldn’t have been an eyewitness, if he was, he couldn’t have been very impressed since he waited 40 years to begin writing anything and he would have been in his 70’s. The other gospels came much later so there is no question that they couldn’t have been eye witnesses.

God himself was the one who commanded the death of the women, children and infants in the ‘promised land’ which was the first verse I quoted and there are many more just like it, Christians often like to use the Old Testament when it’s convenient for them, like the 10 commandments, the creation story, the flood and then pretend that it’s not important when the horrific acts God committed in the OT are revealed.

So are you claiming that most Christians ‘don’t’ believe that the Bible is God’s word or only the gospels are?

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• "Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God divinely inspired, not some of it, all of it."

NO.

Christians believe the Bible is inspired by God (according to the Vatican). And that's it. You made up the 'word of God' part.

• "The gospels weren’t written a few decades after Jesus’ recorded death. They were written much later, the earliest one is Mark and that was written 40 years later"

Fine. So 4 decades is not 'a few decades', but much later. Then I guess we could establish that 2 decades are 'a few decades', 3 decades will be 'lots of decades', 4 decades will be 'lots lots of decades', and 5 decades will be 'trillions of decades'.

• "God himself was the one who commanded the death of the women, children and infants in the ‘promised land’ which was the first verse I quoted and there are many more just like it"

Again, I repeat: that's according to some oral stories that could have been heavily distorted (supposing God existed). The Church itself doesn't accept those stories as true or even accurate, but 'inspired by' and nothing more.

• "So are you claiming that most Christians ‘don’t’ believe that the Bible is God’s word or only the gospels are?"

Again, I repeat: the Gospels are NEITHER the word of God, but the testimony of some witnesses that followed the son of God (again, supposing God existed), and wrote about it a few decades after.

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Well, also, in the story it was a radical fundamentalist group that took over, it was made very clear that it wasn't mainstream Christianity.

In fact, on the series they even showed and spoke about how Christian churches and cathedrals were being destroyed.


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Of course, cathedrals and churches being destroyed would be much more likely to happen during some Communist dictatorship. Which is more likely to happen today in the US than some stupid "Sons of Jacob" taking over. But I guess that Margaret Atwood was too left-wing to write about the very real horrors of Communism, so she just made up this completely unrealistic "Christian" dystopia instead…

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I didn't understand that bit, btw. Why were they destroying the churches in the first place?


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Well, I suppose that these "Sons of Jacob" wanted only their own religion to exist in their new republic. Which would mean that even all other forms of Christianity were forbidden. Jews were also prosecuted under this regime. They had to convert, emigrate or face execution (and it seems like some Jews were even killed on the ships, which were to take them to Israel). Not to mention that (of course) African-Americans and Native Americans were prosecuted as well. African-Americans were relocated to special territories somewhere, and it seems like the Native Americans were mostly killed off...

But yeah, none of this is likely to happen in real life...

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It's not about that, it's about power, when Men get into power and they want more of it and won't give it up.

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Good for you. As soon as I got the My Christian religion is better than their Muslim religion, I knew something was up. BS argument. We're bad, but they are worse. Great way to take responsibility, Xtians.

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