MovieChat Forums > Pure Genius (2016) Discussion > Medical science advancements worthless

Medical science advancements worthless


The problem with this show is that it only emphasizes that all of these ultra modern medical advancements will never be available to anyone but the ultra rich.
Here's how things are in the real world.

I'm a senior with medicare and I have cataracts. I'm not blind yet.

40 years ago the state-of-the-art cataract surgery was removing the clouded lens and replacing it with a hard one-size-fits-all lens that has only one field of focus, requiring glasses for correction, probably one for near vision and another set of glasses for distance vision.

In the past 40 years medical science has made tremendous advancements in the field of cataract surgery.

There are now ways to map the human eye so that they can come up with the perfect lens implant to give a senior fully corrected vision. This is important because after 65+ plus years on this planet the human eyeball can be distorted in shape and as a result, vision can be distorted.

Another development is a flexible plastic lens that can be focused using the natural eye muscles that God gave each of us. For the first time in history, it is possible for a cataract patient to wind up with eyesight that can be focused to distance and near, without glasses.

Nearly all people who wind up with cataracts are seniors, so nearly all those who need cataract surgery are on medicare. Guess which surgeries medicare will not cover and which surgeries medicare does cover. If you are following me, you can guess that the only surgery that is covered is the state-of-the-art for 1975, one-lens-fits-all surgery.

I hear people say that seniors can't see to drive like younger drivers, so which operation that a senior gets is important to the life and safety of seniors and everyone else on the roads.

No matter what is developed by medical science, only the rich will be able to take advantage of it, because medical insurance will not pay for the newer procedures.

For most of us, when it comes to medical science, this year is 1975.






Too much, too soon, too long, too strong, too many,
to fix.

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I realize that with the republicans in power, this may be all academic. Their plans are to phase out medicare starting in March and let seniors fend for themselves - since we are all high risk patients, full medical insurance will be impossible to afford at the going rates. If they proceed, no senior will be getting cataract surgery.
Needless to say, I'm getting my 1975 surgery as soon as possible.

Too much, too soon, too long, too strong, too many,
to fix.

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Why because Republicans? When the Dems did ACA, which Pelosi even said had to pass before we could read what's in it, I lost my medical care. I had to switch to an ACA compliment policy which costs me 400 a month and for worse coverage than I had originally. My original was cheaper too, so piss off with your blame Republicans drek.

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Because it is the republicans that have planned to phase out medicare for a number of years and were only stopped by the threat of veto by the Democratic president.
Now there is nothing to stop them.
Millions of seniors will die at a much earlier age because the republicans see seniors as a cost that they want to eliminate.

Don't worry about ACA. This country will go back to providing medical insurance to only those who don't need medical care. Those who are in need of medical care (the high risk patients like seniors and those who are already in need of medical help) will not be able to afford it.

This isn't about hating republicans. This is a matter of hating the idea that cutting cost is more important than human life.
Everyone is in the same boat. If you live long enough, everyone will wind up a senior and 'high risk' and everyone will be stuck without medical insurance when they need it most.



Too much, too soon, too long, too strong, too many,
to fix.

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You're passing around fake news. From the website of the Republican Party itself, the plan is:

(1) repeal Obamacare in order to prevent rationing of Medicare,
(2) preserve the current Medicare program for those age 55 and older,
(3) control Medicare costs by providing future retirees with a list of health care plans to choose from and a premium support payment based on their level of income--in other words, lower-income seniors with greater health risks recieve more premium support than wealthier seniors.

Seniors are not being left to their own devices. The Congress is trying to fix the mess the ACA brought about and make the system work down the road when people my age are retired. If they left it alone the whole thing would be bankrupt in 10 years.

The ACA was advocated to cover the 17 million uninsured before it was enacted, but its resulted in 20 million people dropping their coverage because the premiums were exorbitant. It's a car crash of a program, not surprising given the 3,000 pages of regulations it enacted.

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No worries, Trump has already signed legislation to setup extermination centers for the useless feeders. The provisions clearly state that if you can't afford it, you haven't earned it and there's no way the burden of failure will be passed along to those who succeed. Welcome to the Reich.

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Don't forget all the LIES Obama said about the ACA like keep your own doctor, save $2500 on premiums, etc.

Even Obama himself said the ACA can be improved. Trump said he wants to cover everyone. Although that is hyperbole we need to see What he will do because Obamacare was doomed to collapse due the escalating costs that no longer made the program viable.

Jesus NEVER existed! He is Judeo Christian MYTH!

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Obamacare was doomed to collapse due the escalating costs that no longer made the program viable.


I believe that Obamacare wasn't a bad idea, but without controlling those escalating costs it was doomed. When drug companies are allowed to raise drug prices without control, the cost of curing cancer becomes over $1,000,000 for each cancer patient. Unless the government can control the costs, no plan that Trump comes up with will be any better. The republican creed is supposed to be free enterprise and no government controls, but that will not get health care costs down. The drug companies are taking advantage of the situation and screwing us all.

Too much, too soon, too long, too strong, too many,
to fix.

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Kudos! There is a huge problem in American Healthcare industries...over charging, fraudulent claims, no control of what any provider (clinician, hospital ER, pharmacy, etc) can charge. These "providers" have a contractual rate, usually over their COST for the service (this is NOT the same as their
CHARGE). So let's say maybe an ER charges a fee for a Medicare patient for $900, Medicaid patient $600, then a private pay person (who has no insurance) is charged $1800, a private insurance may be charged $700...but the patient still owes 20% as well. As you can see, the hospital ER will have varied amounts rec'd for the same service. If they had mainly Medicare and Medicaid patients, the total income for services would be less than it would be for a private pay or private insurance. In response, charges go up for everyone, even if they are only getting partial payments for Medicare and Medicaid (from what their actual CHARGES). Then it goes all around, pharmacies, equipment suppliers, etc. It's a vicious cycle. The entire system is broken...mostly driven by providers trying to make a profit. Some control of charges is one the answers to fix it. Then someone wouldn't be allowed to charge $1000 for an Epi Pen!! Sorry for the rant. Lol. It's just nice to watch this show where $ isn't a factor in whether or not someone can get the most up to date technology for their care. Just an escape from our Medical care reality.

be charged $

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The underpayment of bills by government programs leads to cost being jacked up for private patients, which leads to statistics regarding private healthcare prices to appear to be the problem when the problem was the government foisting costs off on the private sector. The "fraudulent claims", etc, is a big problem with Medicare and other government programs which also pretend they are administered more efficiently than private insurance systems since they skimp on fraud detection that the private systems deal with better.

re: "wouldn't be allowed to charge $1000 for an epi pen"

There is now competition appearing that will charge less, a large part of the problem is that often the FDA makes it harder for competitors to be approved to protect existing suppliers from competition. In free markets like computers and consumer electronics you see prices go down constantly, or functionality improved. In the realm of elective medical procedures like LASIK there are constant improvements and price reductions.

The best way to control prices is through competition. Much of the current healthcare mess is due to government interventions which limit competition to protect the profits of certain aspects of the industry. Contrary to marketing spin and wishful thinking, much of Obamacare actually made that problem worse and helped certain segments of the healthcare industry profit at the expense of the public and others. We have nothing remotely close to a free market in healthcare, which is a major part of the problem. This page is one that gives an overview of the issues, though most people unfortunately don't have the time or interest to actually try to understand the problems:


http://www.politicsdebunked.com/article-list/healthcare

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(1) repeal Obamacare in order to prevent rationing of Medicare,
(2) preserve the current Medicare program for those age 55 and older,
(3) control Medicare costs by providing future retirees with a list of health care plans to choose from and a premium support payment based on their level of income--in other words, lower-income seniors with greater health risks recieve more premium support than wealthier seniors.


I do hope that number 2 will be true, but we've been lied to before by both parties.





Too much, too soon, too long, too strong, too many,
to fix.

reply

Omg, I'm so happy living in Europe. Maybe we are not a place where "everything is possible" but we have a normal public medical care sistem and my private medical policy cost less than 100?/month. I love to live in Europe!

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Most people a few decades ago couldn't afford personal computers (and didn't see a need for them), but now many people carry them in their pockets in their smartphones. Often technology initially is only used by early adopters who see a need for things the general public doesn't yet think worth using (often with bugs that need to be worked out or features added before most people would go for them), just as even most people who can afford it still only get monofocal lenses with cataract surgery. Over time prices fall and the technology becomes more widespread, even if not as fast as some people wish.

re: "In the past 40 years medical science has made tremendous advancements in the field of cataract surgery. "

Most of those advancements are unrelated to the lens implant and *are* covered by government and insurance plans. A few decades ago cataract surgery involved hospital stays, with either no lens implant and the need for high powered "cataract glasses", or lens implants where there was a good chance the lens power would be off and people would need glasses even for distance.

Now micro-surgery that doesn't require stitches makes cataract surgery an outpatient treatment. Now they can predict lens power more accurately using modern scanners to measure the eye and most people without other vision issues won't need glasses for distance (or near if they prefer to wear glasses for distance).

Even the monofocal lenses that most patients get that are covered are greatly improved over the past. They are now tiny foldable lenses able to be inserted through small incisions, with aspheric optics and features that limit the risk of complications that most people used to get like PCO but which only a small minority get today.

The major advance that isn't covered is premium lenses that provide better near vision. Seniors (and middle aged people) who haven't had cataract issues cope with losing the ability to see near through using glasses or contacts, just as most of the younger population requires glasses or contacts to see well for certain tasks.

Insurers and the government don't pay for laser correction of vision for younger people, since it is considered elective surgery since they can instead cope using other methods of vision correction. They feel limited medical funding is better spent on required treatment rather than what they consider a convenience luxury treatment at the moment. Although laser correction has gotten extremely safe, it still has some risk, and in fact laser surgery can interfere with the later ability to use some types of premium lens implants during cataract surgery.

re: "one-lens-fits all surgery"

The reason for that is surgery with a monofocal lens solves the problem of a lens clouded by a cataract, which is the medical condition being treated. Correction of the ability to see closer in during surgery is viewed as not necessary since people can use other methods to correct their vision, glasses&contacts. So it is labeled an elective that people can choose to pay extra for if they wish it, just as laser surgery is an elective for younger people.

Even most people who could afford to get a premium lens during cataract surgery don't choose to do so, just as most younger people who could afford laser correction still don't choose to do so. Just as there are potential risks for laser correction, there are some risks and tradeoffs with premium lenses, no lens is perfect yet.

re: "which operation that a senior gets is important to the life and safety of seniors and everyone else on the roads"

Up until a year or two ago in the US, the safest lens for driving was unquestionably the monofocal lens that is covered since it provides the highest quality of vision at distance and the lowest risk of halo&glare artifacts at night that can interfere with driving. With some premium lenses there is a reduction in vision in low light compared to a monofocal lens (which can be a safety issue). There may be some argument that newer lenses might be safer overall, but there isn't yet enough data to convince government&insurers of that. (and its a statistical issue, they may be better for some.. but not as good for others). Some of the newer lenses may not work as well with people who develop other eye problems, which adds to the risk of everyone getting them.

It is true that premium lenses can help drivers see the dashboard more clearly in addition to distance but it hasn't been clear that is enough to consider it a provable safety improvement (monovision with monofocals can help with seeing the dashboard, but with the risk of reducing sterovision and reliance more on one eye for distance).

The FDA study for approval of a low add Tecnis multifocal IOL (intraocular lens) does show fewer patients reporting difficulty with night driving than with a monofocal, presumably due to the issue of seeing the dashboard better (and difficulty seeing the dashboard can lead to attention taken away from the road). However that was a subjective assessment, I don't know that there is enough data for government&insurers to agree there is a strong enough case for a demonstrated safety benefit for premium lenses. Even if there is in reality such a safety benefit, it takes time for studies to be done and for people to critique those studies to be sure they are correct.

There is a reduction in distance vision with some premium IOLs, which impacts driving safety, though it is minor with the newest lenses. One study suggests the Symfony IOL may be slightly better at distance than a good monofocal IOL, though that was a small study I haven't seen confirmed by others, it may be a statistical tie, or that study might be a statistical fluke. Its risk of halo&glare is comparable to monofocals overall, though the risk isn't as low as that of the best monofocals.

I tend to think overall the newer generation of lenses may be safer on balance for driving, but it will require more data to convince the government&insurance world that the benefit outweights the risks enough to cover them. I know because I chose to take that risk to get a premium lens and needed to evaluate the risks. I chose to go for it, but I can understand why its still viewed as an elective procedure.

I'm not a senior, but for some unknown reason had problem cataracts decades earlier than average. So I do know the benefits of premium lenses, a couple of years ago I chose to go outside the US to get a newer premium lens, the Symfony, that wasn't yet approved by the FDA (it is now), since I'd be living with the results for another few decades hopefully. So I also know the lenses aren't perfect, there are tradeoffs, and there are rational reasons they aren't yet covered by government or private insurance.

There may also be a safety improvement potential for premium lenses also regarding the issue of accidental falls which can be harmful for the elderly, but again there isn't data yet to concretely demonstrate that for certain. A premium lens can provide good vision at the distance for where you are placing your feet when walking, including good depth perception. Monofocal lenses may have lower quality vision for that distance. Monofocal lenses used in monovision to get a bit better quality vision at that distance may have reduced depth perception, which increases the risk of a misplaced foot and a fall. Then again, some premium lenses reduce low light vision which could increase the risk of falls in dim light.


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But that doesn't apply to prescription drugs because in many cases their costs have skyrocketed! President Trump said he wants to enable us to buy cheaper drugs from Canada or another cost saving measure.

Jesus NEVER existed! He is Judeo Christian MYTH!

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Prescription drug prices are high in part because the FDA limits competition, and because they have driven up the cost to develop new drugs and get them approved over the last few decades. e.g. see the work from the Tufts University Center for the study of Drug Development


http://csdd.tufts.edu/index.php

Which says that:

http://csdd.tufts.edu/news/complete_story/pr_tufts_csdd_2014_cost_study
"Developing a new prescription medicine that gains marketing approval, a process often lasting longer than a decade, is estimated to cost $2,558 million, according to a new study by the Tufts Center for the Study of Drug Development."

(though I hadn't checked to see if that is their most recent figure).

The higher costs not only directly lead to new drugs needing to be priced higher to recoup development costs, it leads to to fewer new drugs being developed and less competition to restrain prices.

Unfortunately since the US is wealthier, it has in the past covered more of the cost of new drug development. That benefits other poor countries that get drugs at lower prices, because they wouldn't buy the drugs at higher prices. Unfortunately if US consumers pay lower prices, in the short term that benefits them, but in the long term that insures there will be less money invested in developing new treatments. Thinking short term can sometimes cause problems over the long term.

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it still leaves them with a 400% (and upwards) profit rate.

so this part is bull:

"Unfortunately since the US is wealthier, it has in the past covered more of the cost of new drug development. That benefits other poor countries that get drugs at lower prices, because they wouldn't buy the drugs at higher prices. Unfortunately if US consumers pay lower prices, in the short term that benefits them, but in the long term that insures there will be less money invested in developing new treatments. Thinking short term can sometimes cause problems over the long term."

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It isn't clear what you think is "bull" about it. It isn't clear where you get a 400% profit rate. It seems likely you are merely looking at the production cost of a drug and completely ignoring the cost to develop it, or the cost involved in the dead end drugs they invest in that turn out not to work but are part of the experimentation required to find the ones that do work.

R&D isn't free, it costs $billions to create a new drug. Companies only invest in R&D if they think they can recoup their investment. If the potential prices they can charge for a product would be too low, they won't be able to recoup their investment.

Investing in developing a new drug, or a company developing a new drug in addition to its existing products, is a risk. Investors need to be rewarded with see a high enough potential profit to make it worth taking the risk, rather than investing in some venture that isn't as risky. The higher the risk, the more profit they need to see in order to get them to invest. If you reduce the level of profit too much then no one will invest in new drugs.

All businesses compete for investors, and internally companies need to decide whether to invest money in new products (rather than just sticking to existing products, or say buying some other investment with any excess capital, or returning it to investors).

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Bah, I'm old and the Republicans won't give me free stuff! Most seniors haven't saved for retirement or think about the natural life span of humans was in the 30 to 50 range for most of humanity, due to poor diet and no medicine.

Now that people are living into their 70s when their bodies are failing seniors expect to living forever when they are decrepit!


Look, I'm not saying we should kill seniors, but some of us work for a living and we're now paying for you to be old and bitch. But hey let's let in millions more illegals, I'm sure they'll lower government spending and they'd be happy to pay for your cataract surgery.

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