MovieChat Forums > The Favourite (2018) Discussion > Abigail (spoilers)

Abigail (spoilers)

posted 5 years ago by looper007 (1126)
27 replies | jump to latest

Got to say Emma Stone delivers her best performance to date imo, I'd like to see her do more out there artier projects and play more bitchy villainous characters. She's impressed me more as her career goes on.

Anyway, Abigail is the real villain of this film. I love that you think that Sarah is the nastier one for a good part of the film, and that Abigail is the sweet innocent one. But that switches around, as much as Sarah is using Anne for power, you can tell behind the "Ice Queen" persona that Sarah actually cares of Anne and doesn't want to hurt her even though she's in her own way a Opportunist. Abigail is just outright a user and opportunist, she sees Anne as her cash cow and stepping stone back into the high life she lost cause of her father. She clearly doesn't give a damn about her husband and only marries him cause of his name and rank.

Although I did love the ending, what I took from it was even though Abigail thought she got rid of Sarah and that she won, but in fact Abigail for all that she gained she blows it. In fact with Anne seen her try to kill one of her rabbits, I think that's the moment Abigail was finished cause Anne knew Abigail lied to her, something Sarah never did (she said she hated the rabbits) and Abigail was back to been the maid she was once she joined. A great ending. That's what I took anyway from the ending.

[–] Otter (24464) 5 years ago

Abigail didn't entirely blow it, Anne kept her on until she died, and at that point Abigail had a good income and her own estate, and she was able to leave court and live on her own terms.

The thing about Abigail was that she was a small-time crook at heart, in a court where everyone else was out to take over the country if not the known world. Sarah managed it for most of the film (she was queen in all but name), Lord Harley spent the whole film angling to become PM, Marlborough became the power behind the throne with Anne died and George took over, etc. Anne was surrounded by people who could fairly be called monsters, and the fact that Abigail wanted very little in comparison to everyone else at court made her the easiest to deal with, and the best "companion" available. Plus she gave a great finger-bang.

[–] leader (1689) 5 years ago

Hey girl, hey girl! Love this interpretation.

[–] darkfrances (44) 5 years ago

That's a very nice comment indeed.
Sarah was using Anne just as much as Abigail, only for a different purpose.
One can argue that Sarah was a true patriot, and had the country at heart - I don't think she wanted the war for pure power/personal reasons (although her husband was a prominent military figure, so hm). She did seem to be more than a political-career-freak.
But she was still using Anne. Well, she was using her a bit better than Abigail too, but she was still not around the queen out of sheer love.
So yeah, the poor hunk of faulty flesh in the shape of a queen wasn't truly loved by the humans in the court.
...And even the rabits were in for survival.
Ew.

[–] Otter (24464) 5 years ago

Saw the film again, on an intercontinental flight this time. I was right... Abigail was the lesser monster and a better companion for Anne than Sarah was.

Sarah may have loved Anne and showed her some genuine kindness at times, but she also showed her great unkindness. She took Anne's job away from her and left ignorant of affairs and desperately lonely, an actively bullied her when she tried to take a hand in affairs - while Sarah was away arguing with parliament Anne was left with nothing to do but overeat and grieve. Sarah may have loved Anne, but the fact is that love doesn't stop a relationship from being dysfunctional or abusive, and the relationship with Sarah left Anne terribly lonely and directionless. But since Sarah Churchill's real goal was to rule England, to her ruling was her top priority and Anne's happiness was distinctly secondary.

Abigail didn't want anything but enough money and status to escape the horrible life she'd been leading, and the only way she could get to her goal was... to make Anne happy. Happier than she'd been with Sarah. So, Abigail really was a better companion and Anne's best chance of personal happiness, even if Abigail was a nasty little viper with the personality and ethics of a sewer rat. Gawd, Anne had a really godawful life, even if she was a monarch.

[–] Boromir (9712) 2 years ago

"intercontinental flight" - the good old days before the COVID.

so...
I do not agree with your interpretation about Abigail and Sarah characters.

Sarah is a true patriotic leader, love of her country is at the heart, and concern for national security is her top priority, so even though she likes Anne, she allows herself to blackmail Anne. She understand that without her UK is likely to go into crisis. Therefore, Sarah's ambition isn't to "rule England" but to lead the kingdom to a safe shore.

She didn't take Anne's job for selfish reasons like ego, arrogance and a desire for power but because Anne was not independent enough and not qualified to serve in such an important role. Sarah's absence (while she was wounded and while she was expelled from the kingdom) clearly prove it. Sarah's control behind the scenes is national interest. And yes, it is far more important than the psychological needs of the Queen (whose unhappiness she brought mostly upon herself with her self-pity). Anne herself understands this.

Abigail may have been part of the lower class but she feel contempt, a sense of superiority and condescension towards the feeble. Sarah admitted she didn't like the rabbits but Abigail almost crushes one of them. This is not something to be taken lightly. The rabbits here serve as a symbol of the differences in relation to the attitude towards the weak in society. In one scene Sarah said she is feeling attracted to the weak (can't remember the exact quote) and I believe in the sincerity of that statement. For example, Sarah was nice enough to give Abigail a chance to make a fresh start, despite her first negative impression - a suspicion that turned out to be justified.

One more thing to remember, Sarah isn't Anne's mother, nor is she her caregiver - she has enough servants for that. Unlike Abigail, Sarah treated Anne with respect, by not surrendered to her self-pity and always told her the painful truth even if it's hurts.

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

It's true that Sarah's primary motive was to run the country the way she thought it ought to be run, but nobody can follow the news or read history, and believe that a person who thinks they're the only one who can run the country is always right about their own abilities! I have no idea what kind of ruler she made in real life, but in the movie, she's shown as primarily using her power to pursue the pointless War of the Spanish Succession, and I will let anyone who understands what the hell that war was about decide whether she was putting the country's resources to good use. For all I know, Lord Harley might have made a better ruler, even if he was a twat and an asshole as a person.

So even though I'm a bit of a history buff I don't understand that war and can't be arsed to read up on it just to win an internet argument, I will leave aside the question of whether Sarah Churchill was a good ruler, and discuss whether she was a good friend to Queen Anne.

She was not. The character in the film was thoughtless and neglectful, leaving Anne to spend her days with nothing to do but be miserable and self-destructive, and she was rude and hurtful when they spent time together. Abigail actually made the effort to be kind to Anne, to listen to her, to let her express her feelings, to encourage her to dance a little instead of watching Sarah show off, etc., and to play with the 17 bunnies that represented Anne's 17 dead children. That was important and theraputic, it allowed Anne to come to some kind of terms with her chronic grief. Now of course Abigail did all these nice things out of self-interest, but better to have a companion who's being nice out of self-interest than one who constantly hurts one's feelings.

Anne wasn't going to find true love or a genuine friend, she was a monarch who was surrounded by the ambitious assholes that makes up a "court", and Abigail was as good as she was going to get. Sarah did what Sarah wanted, but Abigail did what Anne wanted, and used her intelligence to find ways to make the queen happy, and at least in the film, succeeded in being the theraputic presence Anne needed.

[–] Ace_Spade (9343) 2 years ago

I think I agree more with Boromir here. Abigail's niceties were fake. Sarah was more "genuine" in her love. She was overbearing on Anne, and manipulative, but it seemed more that she did love Anne, or care for her. Abigail was much more insidious - in my opinion.

All three were capable of monstrous behaviour. The Queen was childish and petulant. Sarah was manipulative and controlling. Abigail was conniving and a schemer. But I think that there was a glimmer of "real" with Anne and Sarah, but not as much with Abigail and Anne.

However, your counterpoint is well-taken. If Sarah cares for Anne, but shows it through merciless ridicule and by keeping her in the dark, does it matter why? Or is it better that Abigail - insincere though she may be - give the Queen some tenderness.

Ultimately, I think the takeaway is how much poison there was in this unhealthy situation, and about how true love and good relationships cannot come from such selfishness and deceit - regardless of intention or feeling. It is wrong to manipulate and harm. Does it matter if that is done through affection or in spite of it?

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

If we disagree about these relationships, it may be because we have differing philosophies of love, and if that's the case then we must agree to disagree. It is my firm belief that what matters in a relationship isn't how you feel about your beloved, it's how you make *the beloved* feel! IMHO feelings of love are worthless, or actually dangerous, if expressed in ways that hurt the beloved. And yes, the relationship between Anne and Sarah is as good an example of feelings of love doing more harm than good, Sarah took the burden of government off of Anne's shoulders, thereby leaving her with nothing to do all day but be unhappy, and moreover her thoughtlessness and neglect made Anne thoroughly miserable. I place no value on such love.

I don't place a lot of value on fake friendships either, but the fact is that Abigail's efforts to make the queen happy did much more good than harm! She wasn't a true friend at all, and I think the Anne of the movie knew that, she was more like a high-level "Paid Companion" to use the Victorian term, someone who is employed to provide a social outlet and minor personal services to a person of means (tongues in the whatnot not usually included). In fact, a friend does "companion care" for a living - she works for frail elders, providing cooking and light housekeeping, driving, organizing, physical safety, and cheerful and thoughtful company for people who are frail and lonely. It's not the same thing as being a genuine friend, but her clients live better lives for her presence anyway.

The truth is that if Sarah and Abigail had been been able to get on, they could have both done what they wanted to do, without getting in each other's way. Sarah wanted to rule, Abigail just wanted a better life and some financial security, and was perfectly willing to be a good companion to the queen to get what she wanted. But of course, if they'd both agreed to work for the queen in their various capacities there wouldn't have been much of a movie.

[–] Ace_Spade (9343) 2 years ago

We're in complete agreement with your opening two paragraphs, actually. I agree that love that winds up hurting is pretty much worthless.

We diverge slightly on the film's evaluation.

I don't think Abigail is the same as a paid companion because she's self-serving. Your friend who works with elderly people (what a great service, by the way) probably loves her job and has her clients' best interests at heart. Abigail doesn't have Anne's interests at heart at all. She will, as time goes on, torture her more and more - or be tortured by her (as the ending kind of implies). It's only a matter of time before this is an even worse exchange than whatever was going on with Sarah.

The film presents us with different forms of toxicity in relationships. I think my main point of disagreement isn't so much that Sarah is good for Anne (I don't think that; her motives and feelings might be good, but her actions are terrible), but that I also think Abigail is bad for Anne as well (and vice-versa) because they are using each other without a care for one another, and that's a time-bomb.

[–] Boromir (9712) 2 years ago

I just read some of the quotes from the movie and found this conversation that escaped my memory:

Lady Sarah: None for the queen.
Queen Anne: What?
Lady Sarah: Well you cannot have hot chocolate. Your stomach, the sugar inflames it.
Queen Anne: Abigail, hand me that cup!
Lady Sarah: [casually] Do not.
Abigail: I'm sorry. I do not know what to do.
Lady Sarah: Oh fine, give it to her. And you can get a bucket and mop for the aftermath.

As you see, not like Abigail she care about Anne. This is only one example, there are many more. Later when Sarah wasn't there we seen Anne throw up and get sicker. This is a result of carelessness on the part of Abigail, who does not bother to remind the queen to maintain her health as many couples do.

I will not called it toxic. Her relationship with Sarah is the only healthy thing in her life. I do not know if you noticed but it seems possible that the Queen suffers from a borderline personality disorder that makes her manipulative and unpleasant in relationship. For example, threatens to commit suicide to get Sarah's attention. It is not one-sided as you are trying to paint. Both Sarah and Anne have problematic character traits but for the long run it is better for Anne to be with Sarah and Anne poor condition without Sarah prove it.

Also, any analysis must address the dual role of both women: as leaders and as spouses. Sarah remarks on the appearance of the Queen Anne in preparation for a public event or an important meeting it is necessary remark for the kingdom interest. Sarah understand that you must make the separation between business and pleasure. Second, the monarchical system creates a long generations of queens and kings unfit to run the kingdom. Sarah understand that, and I think Anne too, so they both accept their roles (The queen front stage, and Sarah is influencing behind the scenes) until Abigail arrived and harmed both the kingdom and the queen's mental and physical health.

[–] Ace_Spade (9343) 2 years ago

I see your points. I think they are valid and insightful. Particularly I take your point well about being cruel to be kind: deprivation of something that will be good short-term but harmful long-term (the hot chocolate, e.g.) is not necessarily nasty.

I am not convinced that Sarah and Anne had a healthy relationship. Much is the fault of Anne herself, but I do think that Sarah could be unnecessarily brutal with her. She might have loved the Queen, but Sarah still could be manipulative and harsh, and I don't think it was a good relationship, even if it did have love or care at its core.

You are probably right: Abigail is worse for the Queen than Sarah, or at least, that relationship will be worse for both parties.

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

Hm, I don't see that Abigail is going to be toxic towards Anne. I mean, she's a total bitch and will be as mean as a cut snake when she can get away with it, but by the end of the film Anne knows perfectly well what a beyotch Abigail is, and puts her in her place... but once she's got the bunny-stomping little viper under her thumb, the queen keeps her on as a companion.

In real life, Abigail was "companion" to the queen for four years, and when the queen died, she left court to live quietly on her country estate for the rest of her life. Now Abigail wasn't a nice person and in the film Anne knew it, but one of the things that made her the best *available* companion was that she was the least ambitious person Anne knew. She didn't want power, she wanted some security and a bit of money, just a better life and a nice home of her own, and she was willing to work as companion to get it, and I think that after the film ended she wasn't stupid enough to overstep her bounds, at least not with ANne herself.

So yes, I think the relationship with Abigail was, in the end, that of a paid companion (in bed and out of it)and her mistress. The relationship with Sarah had been a true friendship, but one that turned sour and destructive, and well, Anne knew that she wasn't going to find true love or a true friend at the nest of vipers that was a queen's court, the best that she could hope to do for a relationship was a paid companion who was good at her job. Because really, Abigail was a small-time chiseler surrounded by big-time monsters of ambition, she was the only person around that Anne could control. So, she was the favorite.

[–] Ace_Spade (9343) 2 years ago

It's still going to be a toxic relationship, just going in Anne's favour. She's intending to punish Abigail and hurt her; it's still not good. Abigail won't be reciprocating any goodwill because there isn't any, and any way she can harm the queen to better herself, she will.

I'm not familiar with the actual history, so I'm just going on the film; it's very interesting hearing about the real thing, though.

That's a fair summation of the film, although there's a lot more nuance. For example, Anne wasn't nice, either, and her own selfishness was as at-fault with her relationship with Sarah. It wasn't just a failing quest for true love, it was also her childish petulance that makes her cut back at Sarah.

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

Well, Abigail acts entirely in self-interest, and it's in her interest to please the queen and save her toxicity for situations where she can get away with it. Which I assume will take the form of bullying anyone at court she fancies and being a spiteful bitch to the palace servants, but holding off on Anne herself until she's quite certain that the old bitch is really going to die this time. Then, she'll be smirkingly play the devoted friend, and make decisions in the queen's name, and invite the doctors to bleed the old bitch five times a day and inflict all their worst tortures on her, anything to hurry her inheritance along!

It's a very complex film about three entirely believable personalities, all of whom are both flawed and sympathetic, in ways that leaves the viewer's sympathy shifting from here to there as the conflict gets more dramatic and power plays unfold. It's such a grownup, intelligent, believable film, so unlike most of what Hollywood produces these days.

[–] Ace_Spade (9343) 2 years ago

That self-interest isn't going to work favourably towards generating a healthy relationship. It's a relationship built on guile (Abigail ousts Sarah through Machiavellian behaviours), and where one party (Abigail) is selfish and conniving and the other party (Anne) is spoiled, narcissistic, and (by the end of the film) is disgusted by Abigail - she doesn't like her. That's a recipe for disaster, and it's going to be unpleasant. Anne will punish Abigail for the rabbit. Abigail will find a way to retaliate at some point.

Even your possible scenario (bleeding her out) is certainly toxicity incarnate.

It is, indeed, a complex film and is as you say there. They are flawed, sympathetic, understandable and despise-able characters. It's one of the best films of recent years.

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

Actually, a relationship between a selfish grasping little viper and a self-absorbed half-crazed queen might work well enough, in the context of a paid companion relationship. As long as Anne doesn't make the mistake of thinking of Abigail as a true friend, having Abigail around will probably do her more good than harm. Abigail's herbs relieve the pain, Abigail can be pleasant company and distract the queen from her worst moods, and as long as she knows her place she won't make trouble directly. A paid companion relationship was never a true friendship, even if a companion was expected to act like a friend when that's what the employer wanted, the role was always that of part servant and part pseudo-friend... which was pretty much where matters stood between Abigail and Anne at the end of the film (plus finger service).

And seriously, I don't think Abigail will dare to retaliate directly against the queen, not as long as the queen has enough of her marbles to cut the little bitch off without a cent, and it's not like the queen was fond enough of the little guttersnipe to be merciful if crossed. Dealing with Abigail was really pretty simple, unlike everyone else at court, the little monster would do ANYTHING for a nice house and enough money to live on, dangle tha tin front of her and she'll behave.

[–] Ace_Spade (9343) 2 years ago

They might cancel each other out? Maybe. It's not healthy, though. Each party would be better off with somebody else, and at best, it's not providing either with what they need, only with brief distractions and reinforcement of negative qualities. A great partner is somebody who compliments, in my opinion, and will draw out the best person that someone can be.

It could be argued that this is purely transactional, but I think those lines are (at least) blurry here; their personal relationships are clearly mixed up in this. Even if they weren't, though, imagine a boss-worker relationship where they despise one another and will actively seek harm when possible.

Abigail doesn't have to retaliate directly. The Queen has enough enemies at court and (as we see in the film) there are plenty of ways to clandestinely sabotage without needing to get directly involved. Worse: Abigail is good at that.

Your point is well-taken, however, that there is a mechanical element that works here, and that - if the balance is undisturbed - will continue to work. History bears this out (to the extent that any of the machinations here were historical), but I am speaking of the film and its version of history.

Thank you for your insights into the paid companion role in historical courts, as well as your lovely prose here. "selfish grasping little viper" and the use of "guttersnipe" were particularly nice reading.

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

IF the balance is undisturbed, then Anne and Abigail will actually work for a while (four years in real life), because even though they don't actually like each other, each is capable of meeting the other's needs. Abigail can sooth Anne's pain and act as a thoughtful companion, Anne can provide Abigail with the better life she wants. They aren't nice people, and yes, Abigail is poison, but they are in a position to strike a mutually beneficial bargain, and it's possible that both will have the sense to stick to it for four years.

And the odd thing about the movie, is that even though all the relationships between the principal characters are toxic to some degree... at the end, Anne and Abigail are better off with each other than they would be with anyone else! (Well, anyone else available, there are no nice people available at a monarch's court.) That's one of the interesting and grownup things about the movie, there's a lot of sympathy for Sarah because she's being attacked and undermined in the movie, but at some point, the intelligent viewer realizes that Abigail is actually a better companion for the sick and unhappy queen, and the sympathy starts to shift.

Anyway, speculating about their future relationship is kind of pointless, history did not record the details of the "friendship" between the two ladies, and we can only imagine what happened to the characters in the movie, and bring in our own prejudices and projections. It's been an interesting discussion!

[–] Ace_Spade (9343) 2 years ago

True. They can find that equilibrium. I personally felt like the movie left us and them in a place of unease. My reading of the final moments was that the Queen woke up to exactly how awful Abigail was and that this meant trouble for Abigail - she didn't "get away with it". The Queen realizes that Sarah truly loved her and Abigail doesn't, and she's going to take it out on Abigail. That's my reading, anyway.

As for my reading of Sarah, I agree with you that she wasn't good for the Queen, but I don't think it's as cut-and-dry as Abigail being better for the Queen. Abigail is too capitulating. Abigail is like cake - she's nice, but not good for a diet. Sarah is medicine - she's awful, but good for you. Of course, Sarah's medicine has horrible side-effects that maybe aren't worth the benefit of the drug. Like morphine. Painkiller? Yes. Horribly addictive and debilitating? Also yes...

I think the movie gives intelligent viewers a lot to think about, not a firm and obvious conclusion.

For instance, at first, I wanted Abigail to win - she had a hard life and seemed kind and nice. Sarah also seemed nasty. As the film went on, I started to realized Sarah's nastiness was couched in love and Abigail's kindness was coming from nastiness. The film does a great job revealing Sarah's care, and to its excellent recommendation, it does so while depriving her of her power. We never get to see the good while it's there. Not unlike Anne, actually, who has lost sight of the good. Of course, Sarah is probably nastier than she was at the start of the relationship, too. It's going sour.

History adds a cool layer to the film, because there is a truth behind it, even if the relationships are made-up (my understanding is that even the lesbianism is speculative at most - help me out if I'm wrong here?)

It's been an excellent discussion; it's why I come here. These discussions reinvigorate the films and reveal their depths.

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

Yes, at the end of the film the queen was on to Abigail, and Abigail realized it... and you could see her realizing that being the queen's companion and fucktoy was going to be a hard grind, but given a choice between giving finger bangs in a palace and taking on 20 guys a night in a filthy brothel, she was going to tough out the finger bangs. And yes, there's no historical evidence of a lez relationship between any of the characters, but then, same-sex relationships were deliberately omitted from the history books. Nobody will ever know what their private lives were really like, so screenwriters are free to speculate.

That's one of the things that made this movie so grownup, the principal characters didn't have good options, just like people in real life! Abigail was stuck with prostitution on some level no matter which way she turned, Anne was stuck with loneliness and toxic relationships no matter what, and Sarah... well. Sarah was the only one who had it all, even if she had a bit of a temporary difficulty during the course of the movie (she came back to court after Anne died and was a power again, and her descendants continued to be rich and powerful).

As for Sarah, yes, there was a time when her energy, forthrightness, and determination were good for Anne, but by the time the film opens that time is long past. Sarah has no patience or sympathy for ill health, never having known it herself. She's become thoughtless and hurtful, even if everything she's done came from a place of kindness, at least at first. Sarah has become a law unto herself, a tornado who occasionally looking behind her to see Anne, who's supposedly the reason for everything she did. Abigail really was a better companion by the end, she's kind even if her motive for being kind is self-serving, she allows Anne to express her feelings and enjoy a few little moments, which is what Anne needs after years of having Sarah run roughshod over her grief.

[–] Ace_Spade (9343) 2 years ago

She does make that hard decision. It's going to be toughing it out with Anne over the worse options elsewhere.

It's kind of a brutal indictment of how often people have to make that choice in real life, isn't it? And how much people are willing to abandon the pursuit of true happiness and endure misery for something more temporary and less fulfilling. As a society, we should guard against that, and as people we should make better choices.

Yes, of course, same-sex relationships have been obfuscated from our history books. I was just curious and confirming the level of fabrication in the film.

I have to rewatch this film and dig into these characters again. It was such a well-crafted dramedy. So good.

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

Now that you mention it, that's something about the film that totally resonates with the kind of intelligent, sophisticated, educated viewer this film was made for - the question of how much shit you're willing to put up with from your employer! All us working people are Abigail now, wondering if we can stand to put up with the job just long enough to meet our financial goals, desperately looking around for alternatives, and probably not finding any. That's what I'm doing now, trying to get an internal transfer to a department where I might not make as much money, but the stress levels would be a lot lower, because I might actually be fortunate enough to have the kind of alternative that Abigail didn't.

And yes, because nobody knows exactly what went on between these three ladies 300 years ago, the writers necessarily fabricated a lot. But that doesn't mean that their educated guesses about the real events aren't something close to the truth.

[–] Ace_Spade (9343) 2 years ago

Best of luck with the transfer! I think something that's baffling employers nowadays are employees wising up to the fact that they would rather exchange time off and happiness for more money. Employers get frustrated that nobody's willing to sacrifice 70 hours a week for a job in exchange for keeping up with the Joneses. "WHAT!? You'd rather make little money and have time to sit in the park and read books!?" Yes. Yes, we would.

[–] Otter (24464) 2 years ago

Hey, at least none of my employment options involve... tongue baths!

[–] Ace_Spade (9343) 2 years ago

Silver linings!

[–] kumarihpx (59) 5 years ago

I won't defend Abigail but do think it's important to consider the life she was escaping when she came to the court.

[–] Ace_Spade (9343) 2 years ago

An excellent point. To quote Fitzgerald: "Whenever you feel like criticizing any one...just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had."