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Why is vigilante justice IN REAL LIFE a problem?

posted 7 years ago by Zombie55
8 replies | jump to latest

And why DOESN'T it happen more in real life if shows including this one prove that it actually IS a solution to some of the most serious criminal problems in the society out there?

Also - should we REALLY start thinking about either totally reforming, not respecting and maybe even abolishing several laws and instead create an anarchistic version of such establishments, given how in certain deeds, yes I am referring to sexual abuse, they frequently let the guilty perpetrators go and make life WORSE for the victim - the statements that people over here HAVE spoken about but so far offered little in terms of solution.

You know, making the world a safer and a happier place, stuff like that, have all those sinful bad guys disappear so good guys are happy again, why not?

And have internet filled with less flame wars as a result.

So would vigilante justice really work in real life then, if it actually WAS allowed and COULD happen?

The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!

[–] dperth-33500 7 years ago

In civilized society people have public trials for their crimes where they are innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. That helps to prevent innocent people from being punished for false accusations.

If someone is really guilty of a crime and there isn't enough proof to put them behind bars, and bad as that is, that's a better scenario that an innocent person having his life destroyed because of a false accusation.

There is no such thing as anarchy. If we got rid of all laws right now, what we'd have in martial law which is worse than constitutional law. It would be a nightmare dystopia scenario where everyone is fair game to false accusations and having their lives ruined.

[–] Zombie55 7 years ago

But the problem is, it is thoroughly proved that even in our world, the problem with false accusations especially for sexual abuse is much smaller than the actual problem with sexual abuse where guilty perpetrators either get away with it or get very light sentences.

Are you saying that our human nature in general is both bad and imperfect but vigilante justice will ONLY make matters worse and that what we see here and in other fictional scenarios where bad guys get their just desserts is all make belief?

And it WOULDN'T lower the ACTUAL abuse statistics then either, correct?

By the way dperth, since you've spoken of false accusations, have you seen the acclaimed and controversial Danish movie "The Hunt" (2012) by Thomas Vinterberg starring Mads Mikkelsen that dealt with a man falsely accused of being a child molester and suffering consequences as a result from public around him?

And did you think THAT movie was REALISTIC and that it also showed that, yes, as much as child abuse as such is existant and a problem, a wrong accusation IS a possibility and that such issue shouldn't be brushed aside EITHER and that it also, at least to an extent, showed how wrong vigilante justice is too?

The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!

[–] Zombie55 7 years ago

Politically incorrect and confusing as it maybe, but I also wondered in some rare instances of examples where it may not be as damaging but still potentially illegal, and I wouldn't state too many details, but what IF people aka victims have either decided to FORGIVE their so called perpetrators or they themselves feel they have NOT been wronged in any way, but the law and society may decide it did happen, who is ultimately the victim, who is the perpetrator and who is RIGHT?

This doesn't necessarily involve sexual stuff.

It might be play fighting where someone ended up being hurt.

Or maybe someone touched someone inappropriately BUT the person who was touched didn't think it was that bad.

Maybe someone stole their last cookie from a jar etc.

And there has been evidence that male and female victims in gender reversal situations tend to react differently - to get an idea - watch this one Australian film called "Envy" (aka "The New Girlfriend") (1999) by Julie Money - the young man had to fight and quarrell with his mother so as to not report his girlfriend to the police or punish her for such a deed, hurtful and wrong as it WAS, and do stay until the ending.

Yes, so we also have double standards where people DO wrong and hurt and make others angry BUT we may NOT necessarily think that hurting them back is a good idea EITHER, so it creates some shades of grey here too as far as violent retributional vigilante justice on the order of "Die you sick *beep* is concerned.

The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!

[–] dperth-33500 7 years ago

I haven't seen any of the movies you mentioned.

You may be right that more people get away with rape than are falsely accused. I don't dispute that. But that doesn't justify a system where the accused are not given a fair trial. That tends to make things worse for all of society because once innocent people start being sent to prison no one is safe.

There are always going to be bad people out there no matter how many of them you try and lock up.

Politically incorrect and confusing as it maybe, but I also wondered in some rare instances of examples where it may not be as damaging but still potentially illegal, and I wouldn't state too many details, but what IF people aka victims have either decided to FORGIVE their so called perpetrators or they themselves feel they have NOT been wronged in any way, but the law and society may decide it did happen, who is ultimately the victim, who is the perpetrator and who is RIGHT?

I'm a Christian and I do believe in forgiveness, even of the worst sorts of people. That isn't to say that everyone deserves to be forgiven. But it's still better to forgive someone who doesn't deserve it than to not forgive someone who does.

In most cases if you are injured during a fight you can tell the police you don't want to press charges. If you're raped though, that's considered a crime once it's been determined that a rape has happened and it's out of your hands. That's the way the law works. I personally do not agree with this approach because it takes control away from the victim. If a someone is raped, it's better that they report it than not. But they may not wish for their rapist to be punished if it's someone close to them. They may simply wish for their story to be told. Like you said they might not have even been hurt that badly, but they may just want people to know what happened.

I'm against vigilantism for a lot of reasons. I believe that punishments should be handed down by organize civil society after a fair trial, not by violent angry thugs. Violence just begets more violence and pain.

[–] Zombie55 7 years ago

ddperth-33500 - you should also watch a film called "Flavia The Heretic" (1974) which is a historical nunspolitation film and in that movie, after our lead character is raped she triggers a violent conflict that affects and kills a lot of innocent people.

In Abel Ferrara's "Ms .45" (1981) also, our lead heroine also kills some people that don't deserve to die after becoming a vigilante following her ordeals.

The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!

[–] Zombie55 7 years ago

I know this is a very sensitive issue and I do not intend to sympathize with guilty rapists and whatnot. But now that me and dperth have discussed a few things, I kinda had to wonder.

In real life, yes rape is bad and rapists should no doubt be punished.

Yes, I am aware that legally it is often difficult to prove and a humiliating process for the victim to go through, and yes I know all about victim blaming, rape culture etc.

But what I was still kinda wondering though is this.

Does all of this necessarily mean that all rapists particularly men who do it to women or other men etc should necessarily be killed and possibly be made to suffer before in the worst possible sense and why?

Many civilized people in not only this day and age but I imagine the past (dunno how people would think say 2000 years ago) would say a big loud YES.

But, besides this issue, even if you feel rapists don't even deserve a fair trial, would that really make the problem go away and make the world a better place even IF we killed all the GUILTY ones like that?

And what if they DO their jail time and possibly even repent and never in a sexual sense, and possibly not in any other, sin again? Especially those that myabe did it under drunken circumstances where they intended no harm or maybe those that didn't even rape but merely touched women inappropriately etc?

Thing is, I understand there are, sadly, a LOT of complex issues surrounding this, and there are, also understandeably, a great deal of very angry and justifiably outraged people out there who want and need a stronger sentences for the perpetrators of such crime and bad deed. Sure I agree it SHOULDN'T happen in the first place.

But even if we retaliated with great vengeance and furious anger ala Pulp Fiction against those that tried and succeeded in performing rape against anyone in any way, will it be really THAT just if we named ourselves the Lord and laid our vengeance upon them? (To paraphrase Samuel L. Jackson from that movie?)

Mind you, we can STILL enjoy rape and revenge fictional MOVIES, but I take it, even GUILTY offenders deserve a trial and some retribution?

Sometimes, in hearing all the stories, I get the impression that it isn't JUST rape that is so traumatic in and of itself ie the forced sex, but the many unfaor consequences due to society's and law's ignorance and lack of preparation to DEAL with such situations - and in the case of rape, besides murder, it makes it more humiliating for the victims of such crime than it does for other acts of physical violence.

And just look at how many DIFFERENT people talk about CONSTANT changed being made to both rape and sex laws, nevermind that they are different everywhere in the world including in different American states, but we can't even all agree on them like that so we can identify the most revolting bad guy?

And say if rape actually WAS easier to prove and prosecute like other violent crimes out there - would we feel less revulsion towards the offenders unless they are constant serial ones etc that did too many of them with too much damage, including murderers?

Thing is, I don't think too much hatred towards rapists is even making the problem go away. But I certainly don't agree with just letting those dangerous individuals roam about like that. But violence doesn't seem the answer? Who is right here?

[–] rubycalaberXX 7 years ago

it happens in the third world and unsurprisingly innocent people get killed all the time over mistaken identity or by someone just using it as an excuse

having a *beep* justice system that isn't too busy incarcerating people 86% of the time for victimless crimes would be preferable

[–] Zombie55 7 years ago

The sad truth is - I don't disagree OR deny the fact that in real life, the real harsh truth with this type of matter is yes indeed, besides the very unfortunate fact that it happens and happens a lot, the bad guilty perpetrators get away with it, victims suffer for life, for various reasons society looks down on victims and are themselves not good OR capable in providing help, the law system DOESN'T work etc, and this is only scratching the surface as beyond that, there are also places in less than civilized parts of the world that has a MUCH bigger problem with it and no matter how much ANGER we exhuberate, nothing really can be done about it, although we comfort ourselves by saying that we should start with ourselves etc.

But in my own little vrazy mind I was frequently wondering about alternative solutions even if they are unable to be found at all.

And it seems like vigilante justice isn't one of them.

But then the more I dig into this type of problem, the more I realize just why humanity cannot create the type of laws that universally end up pleasing EVERYONE and where good guys win and bad guys get it just like in the movies.

The greatest trick the Devil has ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist!