Wow... Patrick Really Hurt Kevin... - Looking (2016) Discussion

[–] whirlpool55 8 years ago

I agree the scene was intense! I'm actually very impressed, although I still dislike Russell Tovey as a person. But I don't think Patrick and Kevin would've worked out. Patrick would've been Kevin's new John until a new guy came around.

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[–] FAx-maximum-ride 8 years ago

Why do you dislike him as a person?

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[–] evil_silence 8 years ago

I believe he's referring to when Tovey said during an interview that he dislikes feminine gay men and how he was happy his dad didn't let him go to drama school (I believe that's what he said, don't quote me on that lol). He lost a lot of fans and received a lot of backlash from his statements.

It's the end of something simple. And the beginning of everything else...

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[–] blindvias-071407 8 years ago

Tovey never said he disliked feminine gay men. He just admitted he never developed the gay construct that art school gays represent. That probably helped him get more jobs. The entertainment industry is more apt to hire less swishy guys.

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[–] Harrismph 8 years ago

Preach! ITA!!

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[–] first-things-first 8 years ago

I agree, and I think Patrick made a mistake choosing Richie. Part of my reasoning is that I did not feel the chemistry between Richie and Patrick. It's too bad endgame was Patrick and Richie. I think they missed a great opportunity with Patrick and Kevin.

And what fresh Hell is this?, Malory from Archer(Dorothy Parker)

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[–] jo_cassavetes 8 years ago

You mean Richie instead of Eddie, right?

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[–] first-things-first 8 years ago

Yes, thanks, I corrected it also.

And what fresh Hell is this?, Malory from Archer(Dorothy Parker)

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[–] jarn2004 8 years ago

I think Patrick and Richie had great chemistry. I didnt like them season one. They were better season two of course they also werent dating then. When they were dating it seemed very forced like they were just going through the motions. but they definiatly had chemistry.

The only Issue I have with Richie and patrick ending up together is Richie has no idea who he is right now.......

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[–] first-things-first 8 years ago

A very good point about Richie and his self awareness. I hang picked up on his insecurity. But he did put it out there when he questioned Patrick about the move. I do agree with a lot of posters that feel that the relationship wasn't over yet for Patirck and Richie.

And what fresh Hell is this?, Malory from Archer(Dorothy Parker)

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[–] matanil 8 years ago

Richie has no idea who he is right now...

I don't think that's quite it. I think Richie has (and always had) a good sense of who he is, but he has issues to sort out. I imagine a big part of it is the revelation that his dad really is a raging homophobe and the understanding that the wish Patrick talked to him about in episode 205, the wish to come home and still get to be openly you, is never going to be fulfilled for him. Not fully. I also imagine another part was actually Patrick moving away. So I'm sure being back with Patrick is going to help relieve at least some of the tension Richie has been carrying. Between those two things, Richie's strong sense of self and dignity and Patrick being there with him and committed to him now, I have no doubt that Richie will find a good way to deal with all of his issues.

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[–] heroes_2008 8 years ago

Kevin was awfffffffful. Just got Grindr to see what's around, my ass. Get outside and see what's up. Grr.

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[–] evil_silence 8 years ago

Kevin was awfffffffful. Just got Grindr to see what's around, my ass. Get outside and see what's up. Grr.

Sure, the guy downloaded Grindr, but Patrick lost it and had a huge breakdown, without even having a real open conversation with him and then he ran away, of course.

All he really had to say was, "Kevin, I don't like you using Grindr, if you want this relationship to work, please delete your profile".

No, instead he ran out like a crying girl and hurt Kevin, who sacrificed a lot for him. When he walked away in the movie and said, "Because I love you, Patrick"; Patrick, effed-up...

It's the end of something simple. And the beginning of everything else...

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[–] boy19 8 years ago

Kevin was using Grindr during the initial honeymoon period of their relationship. The trust had gone and Kevin said he could never honestly say that he would never cheat. If I was on the receiving end of this relationship then I think I would cut my loses and jump ship too. Patrick couldn't be in the relationship any longer where the trust had been snatched away. I personally don't think it was an overreaction.

The conversation of their POV on monogamy only came about after Patrick had been 'caught' on Grindr.

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[–] steelo86 8 years ago

I agree with boy19, and the kicker is the fact that Patrick realized that how he got Kevin is probably how he would eventually lose him.

Kevin is just the kind of dude who has a wandering eye, and I'm willing to bet Patrick was unable to shake the feeling that he could very well have ended up like John had he stayed in that relationship.

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[–] matanil 8 years ago

and the kicker is the fact that Patrick realized that how he got Kevin is probably how he would eventually lose him

When Kevin told Patrick he was happy he cheated on Jon with him, I could read Patrick's mind, wondering whether one day Kevin would be sitting with another guy, telling him the same thing regarding cheating on Patrick with that guy...

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[–] Harrismph 8 years ago

He didn't give up too much he went right back to Jon! I hate Kevin more now than I did in season 2. The movie didn't need him at all.

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[–] evil_silence 8 years ago

And what did Patrick give up, exactly? Patrick is impulsive and naive. Kevin gave up John and was ready to move on with Patrick. Did you really not see the pain on Kevin's face in the film?

Patrick FREAKED OUT AND RAN AWAY, the whole lesson he had to realize in this film! He runs away when things get hard, instead of fighting for what he really wants. Patrick thought their relationship would be easy, and that is so incredibly naive. Patrick should have been a civilized person and worked it out with him but instead he ran away.

It's the end of something simple. And the beginning of everything else...

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[–] Harrismph 8 years ago

There wasn't enough pain on Kevin's face to suit me. He had no right to talk to Patrick that especially after returning to Jon. Patrick didn't love Kevin as much as Kevin loved him. Maybe just maybe if Kevin would have waited to have to the if I F($& someone else instead of u convo later, things would have worked out!

Sometime running away is a good thing.

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[–] boy19 8 years ago

If you call it running away then so be it. I call it leaving a relationship where you cannot trust the other person. What is difficult to understand about that?

Kevin was happy to give up John. He didn't love him anymore as he had then fallen in Love with Patrick. it wasn't really the big sacrifice you are making it out to be.

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[–] matanil 8 years ago

~1~
Kevin was hurt, yes, but that doesn't mean he sacrificed that much for Patrick. And Patrick did sacrifice for him.

Kevin broke up with Jon, who he continuously claimed to Patrick didn't make him happy. If he wasn't that happy in that relationship, how much of a sacrifice is it? Even that wasn't that big of a sacrifice because as we've learned, he later goes right back to Jon. So what did he give up exactly?

Patrick on the other hand sacrificed his integrity by hooking up with a guy who was involved (Kevin didn't do the same since, as we learn in ep 210, he was already cheating on Jon before Patrick came along, so his integrity was long gone by that point), his sense of self-worth right up until the end of 204, that he deserved a guy who would be 100% with him, he moved out of his apartment and left Agustin behind, his relationship with his sister took a huge hit and for all Patrick knew when he went public with his relationship with Kevin, it could have hurt other relationships as well with others who would not approve of this, Owen for one was definitely hurt. And while Pat and Kevin both worked at MDG and both might have paid a price for getting involved with each other, the more valuable employee is less likely to suffer such consequences, meaning Patrick took a bigger risk there too. Eventually, when things fall apart, it's exactly Patrick who finds himself unable to continue working in their work place and having to leave behind both MDG and San Francisco. And along the way, if you notice, there is more than one moment when we see Patrick accommodating Kevin's wishes and prioritizing them, for example in 210, when Patty wants to go to Agustin's mural event and he agrees to first go to the neighbors' party because Kevin wants to.

Yeah, sorry, Kevin was hurt, but that is not proof of sacrifice. He was hurt despite not giving up nearly as much as Patrick has for the sake of the relationship.

~2~
And I don't think Patrick freaked out and ran away with Kevin. I think he freaked out with Richie, in 107 and 108. With Kevin, I feel it was more like coming to his senses, realizing what the situation he's in is really like and understanding that it's not a place where he should stay. He already had 2 moments of realizing Kevin's no good for him (the end of 104 and 204), but this was the one where there were no more doubts or what if's left on his mind. The bit in the movie where Kevin confronts Patrick serves to confirm this, that they weren't right for each other all along, because unlike with Richie, whose presence and friendship Patrick still craves and misses even after they've broken up in such a painful way, with Kevin he can't even stay friends after the fact. And how important for lovers to also be friends is pointed out to us through Agustin's relationship with Eddie.

You said the whole lesson of the movie is that Patrick should stop freaking out and running away? He has stopped. With Richie. Though I would argue that the main point of the movie is not just that but mainly that you have to go for the things that you want, that would make you happy, despite the very real possibility of fu(king things up. If you look at Dom and Agustin's stories in the movie, they too revolve around that idea exactly.

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[–] matanil 8 years ago

Kevin was terrible for and to Patrick from the very get go. In the first episode he's introduced in, 103, he plays mind games with Patrick from the very first interaction that they have and throughout the episode. Think about that versus the way Richie is introduced. The first thing he does is sound concern for Patrick, wondering if he's lost. Then he decides he likes this guy and he's then completely and totally open and honest about it. That contrast already tells you everything about who Patrick should be with.

To add to that, Patrick realizes something similar, that Richie is real while Kevin is more of a fantasy, at the end of episode 104, when he chooses Richie rather than Kevin. And think about how that gels with Agustin earlier suggesting that Patrick is going to meet the love of his life at the Folsom event if he would just dare going there. Kevin never wants to go there, to open himself up, while Richie is there and he takes the chance of opening himself to the possibility of being hurt when he gives Patrick another chance.

So let's review: Kevin played mind games with Patrick, couldn't offer him anything real at first and wouldn't open up for him until much, much later while still not doing much to earn Patrick's trust (on the contrary, with the way he was so smooth, cheating on Jon and perfectly lying to him about it, he showed Patrick how untrustworthy he is). And when they break up, Patrick for the first time acknowledges ALL of this in addition to the issue of the Grindr app, so it really isn't just about the app, as Patrick points out to Kevin. And this is emphasized by the fact that at the end of that whole long, painful discussion, Kevin asks Patrick whether he can trust him and we never get an affirmation.

Personally, I'm glad Patrick refused to settle and compromise just to avoid losing Kevin. He was right - he was continuously giving up small bits of who he was and what he wanted. He already paid a price for that. If he had gone on, the price would have been even greater and he may not have been able to come back from it. I'm glad he refused to continue.

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[–] kuhske 8 years ago

I agree. This scene is intense (and realistic for audiences of certain demographics like me). We appreciate seeing scenes like this. I didn't expect HBO to deliver this (free of charge). I hope the producers will make a movie sequel.

When you differ in opinion, share why you do (and for what context).

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[–] ethan614 8 years ago

I didn't even realize I was crying halfway through this scene when I felt tears rolling down my cheek. And, it was also so heartbreaking towards the end of it. I always rooted for Richie/Patrick but I really really feel sorry for Kevin (probably because I adore Russell Tovey so much!).

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[–] Harrismph 8 years ago

Interesting, I feel nothing but disgust for Kevin.

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[–] evil_silence 8 years ago

Interesting, I feel nothing but disgust for Kevin.

Hmmm... Disgust is a bit strong. Patrick should have known what he was getting into being with Kevin in the first place. He started that relationship with him with an affair. From my experience, once a cheater, always a cheater. However, we NEVER saw Kevin actually cheat, he had a Grindr profile. Patrick had way to high of expectations of Kevin, and I doubt he vocalized them. He jumped so quickly into moving in with him. This is a problem in the gay community. Gay men who fall in love based of their sexual experiences with someone instead of doing real things together. Majority of the time, Patrick and Kevin had sex, very risqué sex; it was fun and gave them a rush. But did they go on dates and enjoy life together and develop a real relationship? They went into that relationship without knowing it would crumble on both of them. They lacked communication and trust; what foundation is that?

It's both of their faults; let's stop denying that both of them messed up and got hurt in the process.

"It's the end of something simple. And the beginning of everything else..."

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[–] blindvias-071407 8 years ago

We know Kevin either cheated on his boyfriend or else he and his BF weren't monogamous. We also know Kevin was on Grindr. So not sure why you would say we don't know Kevin cheated unless it is a matter of semantics.

Patrick wouldn't have moved in with Kevin in the first place if he'd had his sh!t together. The Grindr discovery was just a wake up call.

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[–] shawngreedy 8 years ago

Oh come on, people only like Kevin because of Russell.

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[–] michaeljcummings 8 years ago

I don't agree. Not a moment of that scene rang true. The only thing that would convince me that that was good acting and a good scene is if it turned out that Kevin is a sociopath and just got off on playing head games (e.g. "I love you") because that turn of events was completely out of character and unconvincing. Even Patrick looked incredulous.

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[–] Cameo87 8 years ago

Really? Like...seriously? Kevin is a despicable person who doesn't deserve a shred of happiness. What a selfish, manipulative, conniving whore he is. That entire argument had me rolling my eyes in repulsion and throwing my hands up in air. He's trying to make Patrick feel bad for leaving him after he found out that he doesn't believe in monogamy and was still on Grindr despite the fact that a conversation about their exclusivity never happened before they moved in together? Who WOULDN'T pick up everything and get the hell out of there? There's nothing wrong but with open relationships, even though Kevin's reasoning behind it is pathologically messed up, but that should be a discussion that happens before you commit and decide to co-habitat. I mean, most people would assume that signing a lease together means "don't screw other people". That entire scene was like watching a sociopath operate. It was appalling. Patrick has never been a great person, he's selfish and makes some pretty destructive decisions, but at least he has some redeeming qualities. He feels remorse and guilt. He understands that his actions had consequences. But trying to make him fee guilty about leaving? Or calling him a coward for moving? Seriously? You said his d**k was boring. You think it's perfectly okay to go have random hookups in public places with strangers without giving a disclaimer your boyfriend. Should Patrick have know better? Sure. Never build a relationship with someone that started with infidelity. It will never, ever work out and trust is out the window from the get-go. But don't make him feel bad about finally getting his head on straight and making his first good decision in the series.

I never understood the Team Kevin people. I never supported that relationship and Kevin was always a lying creep. Richie was a far better partner. Should the be together? No. Richie is too good for Patrick, especially after the way he treated him.

Patrick never should have contacted Kevin. It would have been a more satisfying ending if you found out Kevin jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge.

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[–] matanil 8 years ago

Kevin is a despicable person

True. And while I wouldn't say he was so horrible that the character deserves to die, I definitely liked the fact that we saw Kevin so hurt. There was actually something quite unexpected about it. Think about the following:

We see Kevin playing mind games with Patrick from the get go, we see him flirting with Patrick despite having a boyfriend, then we see him take that one step further and drunkenly kiss Patrick despite both of them being in committed relationships. Then to top it all off, we see him seducing Patrick, very deliberately getting him into the office with some excuse he can pull off because he's Paddy's boss (hello, slight abuse of power). He then goes on cheating on his boyfriend for weeks on end with no intention of stopping this until Patrick puts an end to that comfy arrangement. And just when it looks like Patrick might have broken free of Kevin's influence, he shows up on his door step, not really caring about how physically injured Patrick is or how it happened, demands to know why he didn't have Paddy's full attention and letting him know he left Jon. So now, now he might have pulled his sh*t together, but he goes on with crap like having the Grindr app, like wanting to open the relationship with Patrick but only telling him about this AFTER Paddy has moved in with him (he meant to tell him later on? Later, when it would be harder to move out, because Agustin had already found a new roommate? When Patrick already feels more invested because they've been living together for a while?) and like subtly pressuring Patrick into going to the party of the neighbors even though Paddy didn't want to.

All of this together made me expect Patrick to be the one badly burned by this relationship, deeply hurt and crushed, but that's not what happens. Despite all the signs pointing to Patrick's investment and Kevin's manipulative ways, it's Kevin that ends up being emotionally hurt. I think, because I see Kevin as such a fundamentally selfish person, that a part of it is not just Kevin being so in love with Patrick but also his issue when he sees Patrick being able to move on from him (as he seems to have in episode 205, where Kevin asks Paddy how he can be so un-phased by their break-up and as Patrick has in the movie). I think it's hard for him to accept that Patrick might not be wrapped around Kevin's little finger and he seems to be willing to sacrifice for Patrick precisely at the moments when Patrick shows independence and an ability to leave Kevin behind. But whatever gives birth to the hurt we see (a little of in 205 and a lot of) in the movie, he is hurt. And that, as I said, is to me an unexpected twist on the old take of a cheating, manipulative guy. That he would end up being the one hurt by the whole affair.

And as a continuation of that, it's surprising how little Patrick seems to be hurt by the realization that Kevin isn't it for him. He moves on relatively unhurt. Not completely, but a lot less than we might expect from the guy who was the more invested one in the relationship. And I think it's a testament to how Patrick wasn't actually that in love with Kevin at any point, he was still dealing (or rather, not truly dealing) with having lost Richie, who he actually did love and moving on with Kevin was a way to maybe make it seem (to himself, but also to others who doubted his ability to be in a relationship) like he didn't *beep* things up with Richie for nothing. And it's because he never really fell in love with Kevin that he survives the manipulations of the Brit and how he used him relatively unscathed. When their relationship is done, the hurt that Patrick feels is over realizing how badly he messed up with Richie, not over having lost Kevin.

Seeing that reflected in the short in the movie, Kevin's hurt and Patrick being a lot less harmed by this relationship than we might expect, was an unexpected and refreshing twist.

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[–] utafh37 8 years ago

didn't think Kevin was a despicable person, just a messed-up one who caused himself as much if not more pain than he caused others. He had major abandonment issues and probably some difficulties forming and breaking attachments as a result. The fact that he went back to Jon, who he had tested to his limits to make sure Jon will NEVER leave, reinforced that for me.

I never felt Kevin was wrong to want an open relationship...he was only wrong to keep doggedly pursuing someone he knew didn't want one.

But I agree with the rest of the take here, it was very interesting to see how Patrick felt like he'd been the victim in this relationship only to find out that he was actually doing relatively okay, and Kevin is a hot damn mess. The meeting was important for Patrick to let go of any lingering resentment or anger he felt. I liked how gentle he was with Kevin, when Kevin was trying so hard to get any kind of emotional reaction out of him. In that moment he realized how over it he was.

I also never felt that Patrick was truly in love with Kevin. He really WANTED to be in love; he rushed into this relationship because Richie wasn't available and he was trying so hard to accept that. When he comes into the apartment in 2x10 it's immediately apparent that he's already nervous and fearing he made the wrong decision. He's never even been to Kevin's previous apartment. He doesn't know anything about his tastes, how he wants to live, how he behaves in a social situation. They barely knew each other, and it wasn't a huge surprise that Patrick wasn't that invested in it in the end.

It was, though, I agree, an interesting twist that Kevin actually did still care. That is why as much as I always believed Richie & Patrick belonged together, I do feel bad for Kevin, because the theme of the entire show is about self-acceptance and he is the only character who has failed to achieve that. He simply cannot see that he can't be true to who he is AND also be with Patrick. He wouldn't have been happy in that relationship, he would have ended up lying and hating himself even more, and if he truly loved Patrick, he'd let him go without all this bitterness.

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