As far as the Jews/ Israel goes I'll listen to what Jesus has to say about it ^ and not what you or pastor Anderson or anyone else has to say about it.
Well, that's not really a response since Jesus is God and God wrote the Bible. But there's plenty in your post to show your doctrinal error without even discussing Israel and the Jewish people.
Jesus quoted Leviticus, clearly he wants us to enforce his laws that he himself handed down to Moses to write and implement.
Leviticus 20:13 calls for the killing of homos, last I knew pastor Anderson did not happen to write that verse so that would be Jesus who calls for killing of homos(it's a crime). Genesis 18 Jesus personally came down and rained fire and brimstone on the sodomites.
Ok, WOW. Stop right there. If Jesus came to enforce the entirety of the Mosaic laws then what exactly did He finish on the cross? Why did He say, 'It is finished' with the temple curtain torn in two? And why did He let the woman caught in adultery off without the death penalty John 8? Was He wrong to do so there?
Do you follow the entirety of the Old Covenant laws to the T? Have you ever worked during the original Sabbath, which is Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown? If what you are saying is correct-- and that each of the Old Testament laws punishments are still in effect--- then you deserve to be put to death according to Exodus 35:2 for being a Sabbath violator.
Leviticus 20:10 says the penalty for adultery was death. So if a Christian commits adultery they should be killed? Which Bible are you reading?! Jesus paid the penalty on the cross. What you are really saying is that Jesus didn't take the punishment for sin at the cross, and thus another sacrifice is required--- the sacrifice of the sinner's life. Wrong, wrong, and wrong some more.
Jesus said in Matthew 5:27-30 that adultery is not just the physical act, but lusting with the eyes is enough to be considered adultery. Have you ever lusted with your eyes? If so then you're guilty of death, if what you say is correct and that the entirety of the Mosaic laws should still be in effect.
Have you ever been angry with someone else without a good reason? If so then according to Matthew 5:21-26 you are guilty of murder. And again, if what you say is correct and that Jesus came to enforce every single Old Testament law... you deserve to be killed (and so would I for this, along with a great majority of all sin categories in my past).
Have you ever coveted? If so then you're guilty of idolatry according to Colossians 3:5 and the penalty for idolatry (Deuteronomy 17:2-7) is-- you guessed it-- death.
To see what Jesus would think of your Pharisee mindset, also read Luke 9:51-56. Was He wrong for rebuking His disciples when they wanted to call down fire from Heaven upon those who rejected them?
You really need to study Romans, especially Romans 2:1-16. Nowhere in the New Testament does it say to bring out all of the Old Testament laws and enforce each and every one. And before you bring up Matthew 5:17-20, the Old Testament laws and rituals gave a shadow of things to come as described in Colossians chapter 2 and Hebrews chapter 10. Read these chapters in their entirety, because the full counsel of the Word is what counts. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law. Everything in the OT law points to Jesus. While the moral laws themselves will always be in effect (i.e. the 10 Commandments) , the cross changed everything. The wrath of God the Father was poured out on Jesus at the cross, and therefore the punishment for sin is only for those who enter into the other side of eternity without having appropriated the blood of Christ for their own souls.
Have you ever failed to properly celebrate Yom Kippur? If so then you would deserve to be cut off from your own people (Leviticus 23:26-32).
There are so many other examples I could give on how untenable your position is. It's all or nothing. You cannot pick and choose which customs you're going to abide by and which to throw out if you say Jesus came to force all of the Old Covenant laws.
As far as praying for Obama's death I support that, he is a wicked and evil man who continues to allow and even supports the murder of babies, which according to the Bible is worthy of death. Either God spoke the truth or he didn't, who are you going to trust?
Jesus said to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Who are YOU going to trust? Was Jesus wrong when He said this? Jesus is the Word, so He wrote it. He also told Paul in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 to pray for governmental leaders. Was He wrong to do so?
You clearly just don't agree with the Bible and therefore are angry with people who believe the Bible and want to live by it. Maybe I'm completely wrong and have just over looked the verse where Jesus said, "Hey, all sin is equal and there should never be any punishment for any crime you commit against me." Maybe you should show me that because I've never seen that in fact I've seen the opposite.
Good luck abiding by every single Old Testament law. It's just not going to happen. Context, context, context. You need to study the Word in its context or else you come up with messed up interpretations like 'Pastor' Anderson.
I trust Jesus ALONE
That's good to hear! Now how about you trust His Word? As yet another example, Acts 15:1-29 refutes your faulty views. Why else would the early church refrain from enforcing the Old Testament physical circumcision command? Verse 29 puts it succinctly, that instead of the burdensome laws on page after page of Moses' words they should simply 'abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.' No command to execute adulterers, homosexuals, those who work on the Sabbath, etc. None. This would have been the perfect spot for the early church to say 'Yes indeed! You must be circumsized in order to be saved and abide by every single letter of Moses' law!'
If all of the Old Testament purification, temple sacrifice, and other laws are still in effect then Jesus accomplished nothing. In addition to the other passages, please ready and study Galatians and see what it has to say about adding requirements to the pure Gospel message of justification by faith.
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jeremy_koehler
8 years ago
Listen, It's not my responsibility to explain the Bible to you. If you're saved you should probably go back and reread it and figure it out for yourself because there were some things removed from the law in the NT.
By your logic there should be no punishments for any crimes on this Earth because Jesus paid it all. I'm not saying Jesus didn't pay it all but that was regarding salvation, No one can just go rape and pillage without any worldly repercussions at least not in America. Do You think there should be literal anarchy? Show me in the Bible where it teaches that I'll wait... How do you justify being against the Mosaic law? But some how are for laws the United States enforces as I'm sure you are for. Do you know better than God? Does our Government? I think not.
"Leviticus 20:10 says the penalty for adultery was death. So if a Christian commits adultery they should be killed? " YES!!
"Jesus said in Matthew 5:27-30 that adultery is not just the physical act, but lusting with the eyes is enough to be considered adultery. Have you ever lusted with your eyes? If so then you're guilty of death, if what you say is correct and that the entirety of the Mosaic laws should still be in effect."
Numbers 35:30 says their needs to be witnesses. So I don't know how someone is going to witness someone else lusting with the eyes but if they figure it out then yes, punishable by death that also goes with covetousness and being angry without a good reason.
As for the adulterous woman brought before Jesus, what did Jesus say? Was it let her alone she did no wrong? OR did he say those without sin cast the first stone? the latter sounds like the death penalty to me.
John 18:31 "Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death"
I wonder if this is why Jesus didn't have her stoned??^^^^^
"He also told Paul in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 to pray for governmental leaders. Was He wrong to do so?" If I pray for Obama's death I'm still praying for him...
I'm not perfect, I never said I was and no man is, But I'm not a sodomite reprobate, either.(Romans 1)
Anyway, I got more important things to do. Good luck to you.
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johnnydoe-29381
8 years ago
By your logic there should be no punishments for any crimes on this Earth because Jesus paid it all. I'm not saying Jesus didn't pay it all but that was regarding salvation, No one can just go rape and pillage without any worldly repercussions at least not in America. Do You think there should be literal anarchy? Show me in the Bible where it teaches that I'll wait... How do you justify being against the Mosaic law? But some how are for laws the United States enforces as I'm sure you are for. Do you know better than God? Does our Government? I think not.
Actually what I said was refuting your assertion that wrath in the form of execution is still to be doled out to individuals while on earth for sinning against the OT law, as set forth in the Torah. Not once did I say that governments should not enforce punishments for people. These are two very different things. One is like God's people striking someone dead after they sin, and the other is a guilty person falling into the hands of their governmental justice system. One is recognized as a penalty for violated Biblical commands, while the other is seen as a penalty for violating secular governmental laws. I never said people like murderers and rapists should not be held accountable by their own governments.
"Leviticus 20:10 says the penalty for adultery was death. So if a Christian commits adultery they should be killed? " YES!!
Got it. In other words, you don't believe that everything was paid for at the cross even for Christians. Do you even realize the heresy you are advocating here? You're either a troll or you have been horribly misled by some awful, awful teaching. 1 John 1:9 says "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
"Jesus said in Matthew 5:27-30 that adultery is not just the physical act, but lusting with the eyes is enough to be considered adultery. Have you ever lusted with your eyes? If so then you're guilty of death, if what you say is correct and that the entirety of the Mosaic laws should still be in effect."
Numbers 35:30 says their needs to be witnesses. So I don't know how someone is going to witness someone else lusting with the eyes but if they figure it out then yes, punishable by death that also goes with covetousness and being angry without a good reason.
So you've never lusted or coveted? If you say yes I'll call you a liar. None of these require witnesses other than the Lord, because He knows everything. You cannot exempt yourself from these impossible standards you claim to believe in. If God has not struck you dead for these sins, or your local church has not set up a noose or firing squad for you as justice for your sins, then if you still have a guilty conscience I'm sure that you could travel to the middle east for ISIS to carry out the sentence instead. They would be happy to oblige.
But seriously: if you honestly believe that Jesus' death on the cross was not enough to pay for your sins, you are believing another 'gospel' entirely. Have you read Galatians lately? And how do you explain Luke 9:51-56?
As for the adulterous woman brought before Jesus, what did Jesus say? Was it let her alone she did no wrong? OR did he say those without sin cast the first stone? the latter sounds like the death penalty to me.
John 18:31 "Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death"
I wonder if this is why Jesus didn't have her stoned??^^^^^
Under Roman law the Jews could not execute people, but they deferred that to the Romans themselves. John 18:31 has nothing to do with the woman caught in adultery in John 8.
Of course Jesus did not say she committed no sin. On the contrary He told her to 'Go and sin no more'. You haven't answered my question-- was Jesus wrong for not enforcing the OT penalty for adultery, which was death? He did not bring her to the Romans for execution. He did not tell the men they could throw the stones at her. He did not kill her Himself. He let her go. Was He wrong? If your answer is yes, then you have some much deeper theological issues here because you would be saying Jesus made a mistake. And if the answer is no, then you must recant your previous statements about enforcing the entirety of the OT laws and punishments even under the New Covenant.
So is it yes or no?
"He also told Paul in 1 Timothy 2:1-6 to pray for governmental leaders. Was He wrong to do so?" If I pray for Obama's death I'm still praying for him...
You know full well that this is not what the Word is saying here. You are not praying for Obama, but against him. I have no love for the man or his policies but I still pray for him to turn from his ways and follow the Lord. You show a total disregard for Jesus' command to love your enemies, and yet you claim to know the Bible. I really hope that you're just a troll and that you don't honestly believe what you are saying.
I'm not perfect, I never said I was and no man is, But I'm not a sodomite reprobate, either.(Romans 1)
I did not accuse you of being a homosexual, nor of being perfect. The enormity of the heresies you are spewing here are completely antithetical to the whole book of Galatians, Colossians 2, and Hebrews 10 among many other passages.
There's a lot more you did not even respond to from my previous post. I suspect that it is more because you cannot refute these points and less because you don't have the time:
Have you ever failed to properly celebrate Yom Kippur? If so then you would deserve to be cut off from your own people (Leviticus 23:26-32). Will you submit to this punishment if you are guilty?
Do you follow the entirety of the Old Covenant laws to the T? Have you ever worked during the original Sabbath, which is Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown? If what you are saying is correct-- and that each of the Old Testament laws punishments are still in effect--- then you deserve to be put to death according to Exodus 35:2 for being a Sabbath violator. Will you submit to this punishment if you have ever, even once in your life, broken this law?
Acts 15:1-29 refutes your faulty views. Why else would the early church refrain from enforcing the Old Testament physical circumcision command? Verse 29 puts it succinctly, that instead of the burdensome laws on page after page of Moses' words they should simply 'abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.' No command to execute adulterers, homosexuals, those who work on the Sabbath, etc. None. This would have been the perfect spot for the early church to say 'Yes indeed! You must be circumsized in order to be saved and abide by every single letter of Moses' law!'
If all of the Old Testament purification, temple sacrifice, and other laws are still in effect then Jesus accomplished nothing. In addition to the other passages, please ready and study Galatians and see what it has to say about adding requirements to the pure Gospel message of justification by faith.
I should also point out that in an earlier post you said:
Jesus quoted Leviticus, clearly he wants us to enforce his laws that he himself handed down to Moses to write and implement.
And then after my previous post you then said some laws were removed, contradicting yourself and without giving specifics. And yet apparently you think capital punishment that was paid in full by Jesus on the cross is also still in effect for Christians who commit serious offenses, nevermind 1 John 1:9 among other passages. Where in the New Testament does it set up how people were to be executed for their sins? In the OT it was very clear who was to be killed and for what, even going so far as to say who should be stoned to death for their sins. In which New Testament book is there any mention of continuing these practices, and who should be brought forth and stoned to death by the congregation, etc? And please don't say 'well you just have to find it yourself' because that's bull. I've read the whole New Testament probably 15 times or more(it has been a while since I've counted), and the Old Testament probably 9 or 10 times in its entirety. What you're advocating is simply not there for the church to carry out. Period.
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jeremy_koehler
8 years ago
I feel like this conversation is going no where, so this is my last response to you I'm only going to respond to one of your comments made.
"Actually what I said was refuting your assertion that wrath in the form of execution is still to be doled out to individuals while on earth for sinning against the OT law, as set forth in the Torah. Not once did I say that governments should not enforce punishments for people. These are two very different things. One is like God's people striking someone dead after they sin, and the other is a guilty person falling into the hands of their governmental justice system. One is recognized as a penalty for violated Biblical commands, while the other is seen as a penalty for violating secular governmental laws. I never said people like murderers and rapists should not be held accountable by their own governments. "
Well considering the fact I've never said or believed it's the churches responsibility to punish criminals and you kind of just assumed that's what I was saying I'm going to point you to Proverbs 18:13. If you don't understand something, you should ask for clarification. I've been saying that the government needs to punish the laws that GOD has set out. Sodomy is a crime, just like murder, just like kidnapping, just like rape, just like adultery. These CRIMES should all be punishable by death and enforced by the Government, Kind of like the Bible says... I've never seen the Church punishing criminals in the Bible I remember something about Judges, I think I read that in the Bible, somewhere between Joshua and Ruth I could be mistaken... You can also see this in Exodus 18.
I lied, I'm answering two responses
"There's a lot more you did not even respond to from my previous post. I suspect that it is more because you cannot refute these points and less because you don't have the time: "
"And then after my previous post you then said some laws were removed, contradicting yourself and without giving specifics."
First off, are you God? Do I have to answer you in all matters? The answer is NO. Secondly, I did answer you. I clearly stated, "It is not my responsibility to explain the Bible to you." If you do not understand what practices have been removed from the OT By Jesus Christ's coming you should probably read the NT again, either that or continue to abstain from shellfish and continue to rest on the Sabbath etc...
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johnnydoe-29381
8 years ago
Well considering the fact I've never said or believed it's the churches responsibility to punish criminals and you kind of just assumed that's what I was saying I'm going to point you to Proverbs 18:13. If you don't understand something, you should ask for clarification.
You were quite clear in a post that you said executions as described in the OT should still be in effect today. It fell to God's people to carry it out, not the government. If you think it should be a secular government that executes Bible law-breakers, then that that's not Biblical (if in fact the OT punishments should still be carried out today, as you said). Again I refer you to your previous post:
Jesus quoted Leviticus, clearly he wants us to enforce his laws that he himself handed down to Moses to write and implement.
The laws handed down to Moses were not intended to be enforced by a secular government. So there goes your supposed Biblical support for your view.
These CRIMES should all be punishable by death and enforced by the Government, Kind of like the Bible says...
So Jesus wants us to have the government execute Christians for their sin, because Jesus's blood wasn't enough (once again, I ask this question you refuse to address)? This is a total bastardization of the Gospel. You yourself said even Christians should receive the death penalty for idolatry, lust, and coveting. This is completely and irreparably beyond the pale. The penalty has been paid by Christ alone, and all who call on His name and repent for their sins can be saved. See Acts 10:42-43, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, Ephesians 1:7-10, Colossians 1:13-14.
You cannot ignore verses like Galatians 6:1-2 "Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted." Restore in gentleness--- so does this mean be nice to them as you're driving them to the state prison to receive lethal injection, or the electric chair?
I've never seen the Church punishing criminals in the Bible I remember something about Judges, I think I read that in the Bible, somewhere between Joshua and Ruth I could be mistaken... You can also see this in Exodus 18.
The church also never sent their sinners to the Romans for execution, either. So when was this supposed to be put into effect? Where in Scripture is it commanded for the church to bring Christians caught in adultery and idolatry to their local governments to be killed? And why won't you answer my question about Jesus and the woman caught in adultery? Do you say He did or He did not make a mistake in forgiving her and letting her go without punishment?
First off, are you God? Do I have to answer you in all matters? The answer is NO. Secondly, I did answer you. I clearly stated, "It is not my responsibility to explain the Bible to you." If you do not understand what practices have been removed from the OT By Jesus Christ's coming you should probably read the NT again, either that or continue to abstain from shellfish and continue to rest on the Sabbath etc...
So in other words you respond again without specifics and without addressing most of the pointed questions I've submitted to you.... got it. In other words, you have no defense except to say 'Nuh UH! I'm right and you're wrong!'. Do you realize how ignorant that is? I am well aware of the differences between the Old Testament and the New Testament, but you have yet to show that you do.
I made no claim to be God, however when someone is spewing heresy that contradicts Scripture there is no need to be God in order to correct them.
I ask you again: have you ever lusted or coveted or been angry with another person without cause? All of these sins, by your own words, call for the death penalty even under the New Covenant. Have you turned yourself in to any government willing to carry out the sentence? If you say others have to be held to this standard then you cannot exempt yourself, otherwise you don't truly believe what you're saying here.
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