It seems to be an obsession with so many, including Jazz...yet keeping their penis is cool. This makes no sense to me. It's argued all the time here that it doesn't matter what is between your legs, because gender is determined by the brain. Okay...so why does it matter what is or isn't on the chest?
shareIt's because breasts tend to be an obvious signifier of sex. If someone intends to socially transition and live as a woman, having breasts is a lot more important for that goal than having a vagina. Breasts are generally going to be obvious no matter what, but a person's genitalia are not going to be unless they make a habit of walking around naked.
It should also be noted that this isn't in any way exclusive to trans women. Trans men frequently have top surgery to remove their breasts. Cis men have surgery to remove breasts grown because of gynecomastia. Cis women with small breasts may opt for breast implants.
I figured this would be the answer, and it makes sense to a degree, it's just so...stereotypical. I guess what bothers me is so many trans people seem so hypocritical. It's like they "choose" their gender based on gender roles/societal norms for that gender. I know people have said there are transmen who are feminine and masculine transwomen, but I've never seen or heard from any which makes it hard to believe transgenders are anything more than people who really like and want to embody certain stereotypical aspects of what a male/female is.
shareThere are a few points which need to be considered here.
Well, one of the reasons you might think that is the fact that the media tends to show only gender conforming trans persons. The reason for this is simple. They're generally considered to be more palatable to a presumably majority cis audience. You'll see the same sort of thing in most neutral/positive depictions of gay and lesbian people from the 80s to early-mid 90s. Most were conventionally masculine/feminine and generally "straight-acting" or "lipstick lesbians".
Secondly, it's worth considering that the majority of people, whether they are cis or trans, are at least mostly gender conforming. A large proportion of trans women being feminine and trans men being masculine is an expected result.
Thirdly, it wasn't until relatively recently that hormones were often available through informed consent clinics, from primary care physicians, over the Internet, etc. Prior to this, most trans people had to put in a considerable amount of time and work to find doctors who would prescribe them the proper medications, and a lot of those doctors had dated and/or misguided ideas. Many doctors wouldn't prescribe hormones to trans persons who weren't heterosexual (i.e. a trans man who is attracted to women), who didn't present as gender conforming, who the doctor imagined wouldn't "pass", etc. This surely squelched a lot of trans people who would've been gender non-conforming, and a lot of those doctors are still working and continuing to push their ideas.
Speaking from my own experience, I can tell you that I'm generally not stereotypically feminine. I do own a few dresses and a bit of makeup; however, I seldom wear the makeup and most of my day to day wardrobe consists of jeans and t-shirts. I've been in more relationships with women than I have with men, and most people seem to assume I'm a lesbian when they meet me. My major interests include computers and technology, video games, sports, strength training, etc. While I don't assert that any of this means I'm masculine, it's hard to imagine most people thinking I'm perfectly in-line with a gender role either.
I know this message is pretty long, but I wanted to make sure I hit the major points. I began transitioning many years ago, so I've spent a lot of time thinking about these sorts of things.
P.S. I believe you didn't mean anything by it, but I'd like to briefly address terminology. Most trans people, at least that I know of, would generally prefer there to be a space in trans women and trans men. It can be seen as othering, the same way as if someone began talking about black women as "blackwomen" in contrast to the group women.
Again Slash, you hit it right on the head.. .I've been away a while but glad you are still here educating :)
Zinnia Jones has a good response to this which I used, "What do ppl expect a trans woman to dress like? A man?" lol And why do ppl feel the need to police ppls gender and be the fashion police so much?
Thirdly, it wasn't until relatively recently that hormones were often available through informed consent clinics, from primary care physicians, over the Internet, etc. Prior to this, most trans people had to put in a considerable amount of time and work to find doctors who would prescribe them the proper medications, and a lot of those doctors had dated and/or misguided ideas.
Many doctors wouldn't prescribe hormones to trans persons who weren't heterosexual (i.e. a trans man who is attracted to women), who didn't present as gender conforming, who the doctor imagined wouldn't "pass", etc.
My experience started in the early 2000s. After my primary care provider and the psych professionals who evaluated and diagnosed me said they wouldn't provide hormone treatment, I was sent to an endocrinologist. He decided, based on my bisexuality and his opinion that I wouldn't pass (I do quite well, actually), that he should prescribe me testosterone to "fix" my problem. Obviously I didn't get that prescription filled and never went back to see him.
I ended up traveling for several hours to go to one of the US' biggest LGBT health centers. They too agreed that I was trans, but said they wouldn't provide me with hormones until I had turned eighteen. This was even with parental support. So, the day after my 18th birthday, I went back and finally got my hormones.
It's only in the last couple of years that I've been able to get hormones locally. I'm now lucky enough to have health insurance and a new local endocrinologist who is trans friendly. However, I still had to fight my insurance company and go through an over one year long ordeal, complete with many hours of travel, to get a doctor to do my orchiectomy.
An informed consent clinic is supposed to be opening up in my area soon, so I'm glad to know that trans people who would've been in my shoes are now going to have a much easier time getting the hormones they need.
One thing you never hear transsexuals mention today (or at least I haven't heard any talk about this) is hair removal. Going through the horribly expensive and long, tedious process of electrolysis or laser.
" I know people have said there are transmen who are feminine and masculine transwomen, but I've never seen or heard from any which makes it hard to believe transgenders are anything more than people who really like and want to embody certain stereotypical aspects of what a male/female is."
Well then you need to meet more trans ppl, I personally am friends with a trans woman who is very masculine and tomboyish... And there is a trans man o Youtube who wears skirts and is very effeminate.. BUT the problem there is, then many ppl accuse them of not being REALLY transgender... Milo ~the transgender guy on youtube who wears skirts~ gets a lot of crap about not being REALLY transgender, b/c if he was SERIOUS about being transgender he would dress "more like a man".
So its like we can't win either way... if a trans woman is TOO masculine she is accused of not being a REAL trans woman and not serious about being a woman, BUT if she's too feminine, she's accused of being just a "woman stereotype".
"It's like they "choose" their gender based on gender roles/societal norms for that gender."
Again I don't know WHY it should matter or why you feel the need to be the Gender Police and police everyone's gender.
I mean does it REALLY surprise you that a transgender woman would want to LOOK, ACT, DRESS, and BEHAVE similar to how most other women look, ac,t dress and behave? What do you expect a transgender woman to dress like? A man?
I mean if you see a cis woman who is ultra girly, feminine, wearing dresses, skirts wanting bigger boobs, do you accuse HER of being TOO much of a "stereotype of a girl"?
I don't think it's THAT uncommon for women to want BIG breasts.
ANd like it or not, when I'm out in public, I notice MOST women typically do tend to look and dress similar to other women...same for men.
I'm a trans woman and I've shopped from the women's department and from the men's department.. and BOTH WAYS I've caught hell.. Shop from the women's department and I'm being a "Female stereotype", shop from the men's department and I'm "not serious about being a woman" So what the hell are we supposed to do? And WHY do ppl feel the need to police our genders SO MUCH?
Also I find it funny you say it doesn't make sense for us to want large breasts, but yet want to keep our penises....b/c breasts are so stereotypical but a vagina DEFINES womanhood.... Breasts are part of the female biology too.
I've seen cis women say that trans women will NEVER be real women b/c we don't posses a vagina and we reduce women down to nothing but BOOBS, which to me THAT is SO hypocritical! Women like her reduce women down to nothing more than a VAGINA, so really I don't see the difference.
Well then you need to meet more trans ppl
So its like we can't win either way... if a trans woman is TOO masculine she is accused of not being a REAL trans woman and not serious about being a woman, BUT if she's too feminine, she's accused of being just a "woman stereotype".
I mean if you see a cis woman who is ultra girly, feminine, wearing dresses, skirts wanting bigger boobs, do you accuse HER of being TOO much of a "stereotype of a girl"?
Also I find it funny you say it doesn't make sense for us to want large breasts, but yet want to keep our penises....b/c breasts are so stereotypical but a vagina DEFINES womanhood.... Breasts are part of the female biology too.
I've seen cis women say that trans women will NEVER be real women b/c we don't posses a vagina and we reduce women down to nothing but BOOBS, which to me THAT is SO hypocritical! Women like her reduce women down to nothing more than a VAGINA, so really I don't see the difference.
Again, not all trans woman want the same thing, I'm small chested and I'm pretty content, ALTHOUGH I wouldn't mind being a little bit bigger in the chest area. As far as my demeanor I am pretty well a fem girly girl but I DO have some boyish interests... I LOVE to work with a power saw, love outdoors, 4-wheelriding, and things like that, but also love a day at the nail salon.
I think we trans ppl are under the eye a lot more than cis ppl...ppl are always wanting us to "MESS UP" so they can say, "YOU"RE NOT REALLY A WOMAN ~or a man~"
It's like if you see some of my posts on here, you know I can be a bit hotheaded and passionate and easy to anger... Ppl have pointed to me that, "You're not REALLY a woman with THAT hotheaded termperment, you are aggressive like a MAN, that is your ass-kicking testosterone coming out!" and things such as that.
BUT other times if I'm too quiet and passive ppl will be like, "Well that proves your not REALLY a woman.. if you were a woman, you'd be bitching me out and telling me how it IS, you'd have a TUDE!"
So see it makes us very self conscious a lot of times b/c we really don't know how to act!! It's like no matter what we do or how we behave ppl will use it against us to invalidate our identities.
I joke like it's going to get to the point where ppl will be like, "Ah ha!! You're walking down the street, that PROVES you're a man and not really a woman!" lol
And I just like my look b/c that's how I like to come across to ppl and it is ME... If I were the last person on Earth, I'd prolly have more important things on my mind than how I dressed lol At home I tent to be pretty casual.
Why do cis women NEED boobs? Why do so many cis women need or WANT BIGGER boobs? How is it any different?
"yet keeping their penis is cool."
Well for one thing NO ONE is seeing what is between someone's legs.... HOWEVER boobs are very visible in our daily life.... Boobs are an aspect of the body that differenciates males from females in the public eye in many ways. Ppl generally do not walk around with their penises hanging out, HOWEVER boobs are visible to society!
If someone has a female brain, is it really surprising they'd want a body that looks the way most female body's look? Esp. parts that are visible to the public in daily life?
ALSO....it's easier, less risky and less expensive to attain boobs through hormone usage than it is to have surgery that reconstructs the penis into a vagina. Not everyone can afford surgery.
Biological women need boobs in order to nurse babies, you poor dear. You've heard of pregnancy, yes? Presumably you were a result of such. http://qz.com/756499/americas-sexualization-of-breasts-is-so-pervasive-even-other-women-think-public-breastfeeding-is-gross/
shareIt seems appropriate to note that many cis women don't have children, and those who do often choose not to breastfeed.
Secondly, trans women can breastfeed and have done so successfully: http://www.milkjunkies.net/2013/05/trans-women-and-breastfeeding-personal.html
Biological women need boobs in order to nurse babies, you poor dear. You've heard of pregnancy, yes? Presumably you were a result of such. http://qz.com/756499/americas-sexualization-of-breasts-is-so-pervasive-even-other-women-think-public-breastfeeding-is-gross/
Many women who cannot have children nor have ANY DESIRE to have children nor have any desire to use their breasts to breast feed their children ALSO want BIGGER BREASTS.. so whats up with THAT? If breasts are nothing more than milk jugs, why do so many women want HUGE ones who have no desire to use them to breast feed?
Nursing is the biological purpose for the existence of female breasts. Probably bio women who want bigger breasts are just trying to outdo the trans women by having bigger breasts than you guys.
shareOk yeah that make's perfect sense!
NOT!
These poor sweet boys finally gave up.
shareNever!
shareNever let them shoot us down
Never, never
Never, never run away!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWzy5q_M5Ho
Yes :) 👏
I suspect this board will die down until next Spring, THEN we will get our yearly biology lessons on "chromosomes" and how, "If you have XY chromosomes you're a man!", "You can't be a woman unless you have a womb!", "I am a biology major, sir, and if you have a Y phenotype thus you are a man." and how "if you got a dick you're a man", and the classic "You can't change your sex no matter what you do."
and maybe.... "Duuhhhhhh what's the difference between you trans ppl and ppl who want to have their limbs removed?"
And we will be posed with thought provoking questions such as, "So if I feel like a unicorn does that MAKE me one?"
And we will be sure to get insightful, "repetitive" updates on the BRILLIANT findings of Dr. Paul McHugh....and how transition ruined Walt ~whats his name's~ life.
And everyone be sure to bring their dictionaries b/c I'm sure we will get of ton of ppl citing how the dictionary defines a MAN and WOMAN as if it's an intrinsic authority.
Come on Spring 2017!!! lol
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