Race


Given that raiding was a major feature of the Dark Ages (and before and afterward), and that capturing people who could be sold into slavery was one of the main reasons for such raids, I think it pretty unlikely that there were no black people in northern Europe at this time. Just as there would have been plenty of north Europeans who had ended up in the slave markets of north Africa. This would not necessarily have been seen as something to note especially in the records. I read that 30% of cowboys were black- but I've never seen a Western that showed that.

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Yes, AT LEAST 30% of Cowboys were Black. There is debate regarding the origin in the application of the name "cowboy"-some historians attribute its origins to boys first employed to wrangle the cattle, while a second theory surmises "boy" was the pejorative term for African-American which was transported towards cattle wranglers.

European history is beyond my scope of expertise:my area of concentration is in the Middle East and North African (MENA) region (first M.A. in Middle East Studies and my second M.A. is in Political Science-International Relations: Middle East Politics).

Among my years of professional/academic and personal research I have encountered numerous sources proclaiming that international trade between Northern Europe and various North and West African empires and civilizations was a norm.

Remember, Rome had invaded and colonized much of North Africa and even conscripted Moors as soldiers who fought in France, Switzerland, England, among other nations. And of course, everyone is familiar with the eventual Moorish invasion of Spain (Al Andulus) and other European countries and the enormous scientific, artistic, architectural, etc. contributions made to Europe by the Moor-bringing out of the Dark Ages and eventually to the Enlightenment.

Because this was pre-Araization and the gradual conversion to Islam (99% of societies that were eventually absorbed into various "Islamic" Empires followed the paradigm: initially retaining their religious autonomy, then embraced Arabization by adopting the Arab culture and language, and over the course of many generations would convert to Islam). Hence, being these events precluded the Arab conquest, the Moors were Black.

"Golden Age of the Moor": edited by Dr. Juan Van Sertima states, "The original Black Berbers, who were called Moors, were the North African ancestors of the present day dark-brown and brown-black peoples of the Sahara and the Sahel, mainly those called Fulani, Taureg, Zenegha, of Southern Morocco, Junta, and Tubba of the Saudi countries as well as other Black Arabs now living in Maurtania and throughout the Saudi. They included the Trarza of Mauretania and Senegal, the Mogharba as well as dozens of other Sudanese tribes, the Chaamba of Chad and Algeria."

Van Sertima also mentions, "Black Saracens" who fought and defeated Vikings.

It isn't surprising if you are unfamiliar with the African presence in Nordic Europe as only recently is African history becoming liberated from Western racism. No where is this racism more prevalent than in the United States, where Ancient Egyptians continue to predominantly be represented in the media by Caucasian actors.

I lived in Egypt for several years and Hollywood's persistence to have Whites portray Ancient Egyptians is a "hot-button"/ controversial issue there. I also have Egyptian and Egyptian-American friends whom have started numerous petition drives demanding Hollywood depict Ancient Egyptians more accurately; either using "people of medium to dark skinned complexion-ranging in appearance of biracial to Black Americans."

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Our basement is our private library, containing approximately 1,700 physical books, and I also own(ed) an additional 6,000 ebooks and encyclopedias on my desktop hard drive. I used the past tense as my desktop was infected with a virus causing it to crash. I have yet to repair my hard drive.

If you are interested in the subject, I can recommend a couple of titles to you. All of my books are related to their subject matter are authored by academics and professionals specifically to the topic. For example, my books pertaining to the religion of Islam and Muslims are ONLY by those with AT LEAST an M.A. and completely objective in Islamic Studies.

I am a firm subscriber to the notion that a person's research methods are directly representative of their character. Therefore, if an individual has a question related to Islam and they seek information from someone whose academic background (or without any academic research) is History, then I disqualify this individual from the field. As a Political Scientist of the Middle East, out of respect, I do not have any business on writing on European History.

If someone lacks integrity to utilize an objective expert towards their own intellectual pursuits cannot be entrusted with someone else. Willfully obtaining information from a subjective author is dishonest, immoral, unethical, lacks integrity and is ignorant.

I often read and hear people attribute the Arabic-Islamic term "taqiyya" to "the right for Muslims to lie to Non-Muslims to propagate Islam." While in reality, the word "taqiyya" derives from the Arabic root "w-q-y," meaning "fear." From this root you also have the word "taqwa," meaning "fear of God" and is one of the most important concepts in Islam.

Hence, "taqiyya" implies 'to do something out of fear.' Islamic religious scholars have ALWAYS described "taqiyya" as a Muslim's right to conceal the fact they are Muslim during periods of FEAR from persecution. Meaning, if Muslims are being subjected to severe religious persecution then they can hide their religion from their persecutors. Nothing more. The Qur'an specifically forbid Muslims to lie to deceive, especially to describe Islam. The Qur'an says, "speak the truth even if it against your own soul (self)!"

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What exactly does any of this have to do with the topic of Dark Ages Europe?

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I just say as this is fictional and set in the dark ages. Television companies do not necessary go for all white casting these days.

It's that man again!!

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I don't know if there were Black people in Europe at that time but, I find it amazing how many posts on here are discussing if black people or women are "out of place" in a show that has monsters, witches and mythical creature's running around.

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There are more dragons in the source material than Africans, but they've got to fulfill those racial quotas in casting.

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What source material? Other than the name (a name) this is not based on any "source material".

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All true, but that is the world we live in. Hopefully the next episode will include non white transgender monsters with disabilities.


I'm looking forward to the episode were a bunch of fat purple haired women sit around and discus the "Viking rape culture"

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People here:

I am a historian therefore I know what race people were. The old societies in nordic-germanic countries were all multicultural. There were at least 50% black people living there and they all had the same rights as the locals. Also the slaves in America were 80% white and the slavers were mostly black. So black people are responsible for slavery!

Just about the same amount of probability as a black thane!

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+10

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Not "Thane", as that was an Anglo-Saxon rank of nobility. "Jarl" would be more appropriate, as Beowulf was a Geat (Swede)

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Let's look at a few facts and not at likelihoods or probabilities. I live in York which was a major Roman town and then Saxon and then Viking. In one of its museums, there is the skeleton of a wealthy black woman recovered from a Roman grave. The Roman soldiers who were sent to Britain were from all over the Empire. One of the forts on Hadrian's Wall, up near the NW coast, was/is called Arbeia - Fort of the Arabs - and many recovered gravestones are in Arabic. It's well known that Roman archers in the army in Britain were Scythians (Iranians). When Roman soldiers retired from the army, they often stayed in the country of their final posting and were given land there.

BUT, also consider that they would have been absorbed by the surrounding white genes and culture. After a few generations, they would no longer have been black and they would have dressed like and had the customs of the indigenous group. Invading Saxons and Vikings may have wiped many of the locals out (still under dispute). And these invading people, not having been conquered by the Romans, are more likely to have been white. I can't help but think that Beowulf is being very PC. I don't mind fantasy, but such presentations do muddy the water a bit for children when they think about this time period.

As an interesting aside, I read last week that DNA research in Ireland has shown that the original Irish people were immigrants from the Middle East which explains the predominance still of black hair.

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I read last week that DNA research in Ireland has shown that the original Irish people were immigrants from the Middle East which explains the predominance still of black hair.


I've read it today,on i.m.d.b, and i am still am amazed about the ammount of stupid in it.

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The report was in The Guardian, the most intelligent and respected newspaper in the UK:

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/dec/28/origins-of-the-irish-down-to-mass-migration-ancient-dna-confirms

What's your problem with this?

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''The report was in The Guardian, the most intelligent and respected newspaper in the UK''

Good grief do people actually think this?

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I've read it today,on i.m.d.b, and i am still am amazed about the ammount of stupid in it.


It's really not as bizarre as you seem to think it is. We all came from somewhere, people didn't just burst out of the ground in the UK, white and blond and blue eyed. People migrated, people evolved.

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At a guess, lettyatuni, I reckon he's one of those fundamentalists who don't believe in evolution and who don't want to believe that, if their DNA were sampled, then they might be less than white. My husband, btw, has had a DNA sample tested: he is red-haired, green eyed and has a surname that is very English but originating from the Old Norse cultures. The results were very interesting.

However, to restate my position: the Roman Empire brought a certain number of black and Middle Eastern groups to England, some of whom would have settled here. But, four hundred years after the collapse of the Empire, when Beowulf was written, such non-white residents would have integrated with and been absorbed by white locals, both in colour, dress code and culture. Thus, the series, Beowulf, is being horribly PC when it shows what appear to be black Africans and other cultures living in Northern England.

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Thus, the series, Beowulf, is being horribly PC when it shows what appear to be black Africans and other cultures living in Northern England.


I'm bi-racial (black and white) and I don't presume to speak for all black people. However, it is deeply annoying when tv shows do stuff like this.

Black people are asking for better representation in the media, not to be shoe-horned into a show randomly. When non-whites are asking for better representation, it wasn't a case of us watching Sense and Sensibility and wondering where all the black people were.

We're not stupid and it's patronising.

My husband, btw, has had a DNA sample tested: he is red-haired, green eyed and has a surname that is very English but originating from the Old Norse cultures. The results were very interesting.


Similar to my family on the black side. My grandmother grew up without her dad and assumed (as she is black) that he would be black. Turns out he was white. And then, on my grandad's side, his family were actually all Native People of the Caribbean Islands. We always assumed we were all from Africans sold into slavery, but seems it's more complex than that.

Race, ethnicity and DNA are very interesting. It's a shame the study of it is constantly hijacked by racists trying to prove some agenda.

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Thank you for those remarks: I go along with them. Glad to hear that people who are not white also get upset about the shoe-horning.

For those who are interested in DNA research, my husband on his father's side showed descent from 'Alpine Man' and the Beaker People who were around during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. They came to England from Western Europe. This Germanic group/the Beaker people settled aggressively in England about the time of Stonehenge. Their power came from them being metalworkers during the Bronze Age. His Alpine 'marker' may have originated from this early influx or from later influxes of Saxons and Danes (Vikings) from the 5th C onwards. 6% of those tested in England have this marker.

So far, so not so surprising. But his mother who was a very posh English lady whose family could be traced back for some centuries, had DNA with the Levantine marker which spread from the Levant, the lands on the easternmost shores of the Mediterranean. A sub-group shows that his genes belong to a super-cluster of people, way back at the very beginning of human movements, who paused near the shore of the Persian Gulf for a long time before they moved on. 8% of the population of England tested so far has this marker.

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Agreed. I look White, but a look at photos of my maternal grandad and his brothers strongly suggests that is not entirely the case (and my Mum's cousin still has very curly hair), probably thanks to my great-x-3-grandmother who was from Gravesend in Kent – a very mixed port in late 18C.

I don't have any issue with ethnically mixed casting in things like Dickens, set in urban areas in 19C, or in cosmopolitan Roman settings, and there is canonical justification for a Black or Asian Heathcliff; but it needs to be justified in mediaeval settings. There might be the occasional North African or Middle Eastern merchant or slave in a Norse settlement, given the trade routes to Constantinople, but you can't merely shoehorn people in to reflect modern London-centric demographics and behave as if it wouldn't (at the very least) be a talking point for other characters. I love watching Chinese and Japanese swashbuckling/mythology-based movies and don't ask "where are the Europeans or Africans?".

DNA-wise, my Dad's a T MtDNA, and a Beaker Person in Y-chromosome. His overall picture is very much far West of Britain, with some Iberian origin, but there are other bits and pieces that are probably via the Norse connection. My MtDNA is H (a really common one in Europe), but my overall picture is rather nearer to French averages than my Dad's, probably because my maternal grandmother was partly of Huguenot ancestry. It's all great fun!

"Active but Odd"

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And speaking of all this, look what popped up in the paper the other day!


Origins of York's decapitated Romans traced by genome technology

Scientists reveal that headless men believed to be gladiators have descendants in Wales – and one hailed from Middle East


The origins of a group of men whose decapitated corpses were discovered in a Roman cemetery in York have been traced through genome technology. It has been revealed that one man came from as far away as modern Syria or Palestine, and that the descendants of others now live in Wales.



http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/19/origins-of-yorks-decapitated-romans-traced-by-genome-technology?CMP=fb_gu

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I knew this series would be absolute trash just from the trailers when they felt they had to go all PC by introducing black tribes into dark ages europe LOL. I'm just surprised imdb have this rubbish as high as 5.7

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I am from Denmark and I can tell you that there was none or almost none black people in northern europe at that time. I actually find it a little racist to think that slaves always is black. Many people in Denmark had not even seen a black person before the start of the twentieth century.

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