MovieChat Forums > Goat (2016) Discussion > Does Masculinity always have to be ''tox...

Does Masculinity always have to be ''toxic''?

posted 8 years ago by tijmenraasveld
39 replies | jump to latest

I haven't seen this movie so i can't say too much about it, but based on the trailer it seems like a movie emphasizing the worst aspects of masculinity. Of course the issues it covers are completely legitimate, but imo they're not the most relevant issues to cover at this time. Currently the concept of masculinity is under attack. That may sound dramatic, but there's a legitimate movement especially among college aged kids, that sees masculinity as a sickness, calling it toxic and portraying it as something young men must ''unlearn''. Admittedly, and as is accurately depicted in Goat, Masculinity when pushed to the extreme can be destructive, but it's also what built the civilized world as we know it. The same aggression, competitiveness and ambition that's caused wars and massacres has also created the most powerful and developed nations in history, yet somehow it's taboo to admit that.

Again, I don't mind that Goat exists, because i'm sure the kind of stuff portrayed in it exists to an extent in real life, but In a time when masculinity is equated to danger, movies like Goat aren't saying anything remotely new or controversial.

What i'd personally like to see as a change of pace is a feature film that realistically depicts the dangerous and destructive side of political correctness surrounding college campuses right now. Lives are being destroyed by false rape accusations and hypersensitive language policing. The Orwellian environment college campuses have turned into would be a great setting for a movie about young people and never has it been more relevant than right now. Instead movies like Goat do what we've seen a million times before, focusing on the worst aspects of masculinity, when i personally would much rather see a movie that shows masculinity has its good sides, and its counterpart can be just as if not more harmful.

[–] rosepetals334 8 years ago

All that hazing *beep* has nothing to do with being a man or a woman. All it's about is abuse and power, it's about being the most psychologically *beep* up sadistic prick you can be to pledges, even if it means killing them, all for the name of belonging to some twisted pack mentality. The strong ones attacking and dominating the weak ones. Greek life people who do stuff like this have no souls, they are subhuman. I find it disturbing that degrading acts like this even happened, let alone are condoned.

The more personalities you have the less boring you are!

[–] shephardjhon 8 years ago

I agree. Hollywood seems to either hate men or is going through a phase and it is going to be descrutive to the whole of the US.
Attitudes like this are probably among the reasons the two worst candidates are nominees of major parties. Feminists and Hollywood tell women constantly how bad men are so they elect even the worst woman in sight and men retaliate by electing the worst man they can find.

The US seriously needs to see this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycBKLRqNwyQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOMpxsiUg2Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKcWu0tsiZM

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] An_Hedonic 8 years ago

You haven't seen the movie but know it's eroding the basis of modern civilization, the clearly defined attributes that define masculinity and its necessity to society.

And I am Marie of Roumania ...

[–] tijmenraasveld 8 years ago

I'm not saying this specific movie is bad or ''problematic'', and you're putting words in my mouth if you claim i said it ''erodes the basis of modern civilization''. It's just that in making a movie about college campuses it could be way more interesting to cover things that are actually relevant at this moment, like the social justice insanity brainwashing young men and women, instead of just doing what's been done before and following the trend of showing the worst sides of masculinity.

Individually i don't care this movie exists. The events depicted in it are terrible and do happen. I just think it says nothing we don't know yet, and it could be interesting to see a different perspective on what goes on behind the scenes on college campuses.

[–] KingCobra686 8 years ago

What is your point? That extreme hazing is ok because it is good for maintaining the masculinity of the country?

Being a real man is about being mature and responsible, not tough and aggressive. That is certainly not under attack.

Also, how many lives have been ruined by false rape accusations vs how many lives have been ruined by real rape incidents? You are a dumbass if you believe that the first option is larger than the second.

[–] tijmenraasveld 8 years ago

I'm not defending hazing at all, it is a case of the worst side of masculinity. I agree with you on the virtues of masculinity being mature and responsible, but i don't think the media would agree with you. My point was that while Hollywood seems more than content shining a big bright light on everything that can go wrong when Masculinity takes over, it doesn't seem to care about all the good that's come from it.

how many lives have been ruined by false rape accusations vs how many lives have been ruined by real rape incidents? You are a dumbass if you believe that the first option is larger than the second.

This is a non-argument. It's like saying we shouldn't care about people dying of aids because more people die of cancer. False rape accusations don't just ruin the lives of the men at the receiving end, but also delegitimize actual victims of rape. It's the story of the boy who cried wolf. If time after time people lie about being raped, the media makes a big fuss about them and then they all turn out not to be true, it's gonna have a big effect on how real victims of sexual assault are treated in the future, which is with a lot more suspicion and distrust.

[–] KingCobra686 8 years ago

What i'd personally like to see as a change of pace is a realistic feature film that shows the dangerous and destructive side of political correctness surrounding college campuses right now. Lives are being destroyed by false rape accusations

A realistic film that focuses on the problems in college life would focus on the lives ruined by rape, of which there are many, and not the much smaller number of lives ruined by false rape accusations.

I am not denying that false accusations are a serious issue, but the way you are talking about it implies that you believe them to be a much larger issue than real rape incidents. We should certainly worry about both, but the kind of guys who are real big on crusading against false rape accusations usually don't seem to care about the real rape accusations.

[–] tijmenraasveld 8 years ago

You're making a huge assumption by saying i must not care about rape just because i also care about those falsely accused. Rape is and will always be an issue, but how that means we can't also make movies about other types of victims on college campuses i fail to understand. The media shames and bullies men falsely accused of rape and destroy their reputation, all the while glorifying those who play the victim. Again, I find it a little insulting apparently just addressing this kind of stuff is delegitimizing rape victims.

[–] KingCobra686 8 years ago

I am making assumptions based on what you have already posted in this thread, which so far comes across and sexist and semi-defensive of rape. If they are invalid, I apologize and you can feel free to ignore them.

Just be aware that advocating against false rape accusations is a very touchy subject and if it means a lot to you, just make sure that you do it in the correct way if you want to be effective. It is the same as advocating for White rights or male rights or any other campaign that supports the smaller side of an issue. Many of these movements have good intentions and valid claims, but when they choose the wrong reasons to prove their agenda and show them the wrong way, it ends up making the whole group look selfish and sexist/racist instead of supporters of an overlooked cause.

[–] sleepingtiger (712) 7 years ago

tijmenraasveld;
First of all, GOAT is an indie flick---it didn't get a wide release like your average Hollywood film, and the reality is, is that the number of false rape accusations are far less that actual rape victims. So stop trying to make like it's a bigger issue than it really is,because it's nowhere as prevalent as you claim it it---with no proof, or course. The reality is, even when women come forward about having been sexually assaulted, they're still disbelieved and told that it's their fault, even if the guy they accused start the situation, and even if he has a history of assaulting women. That's what so messed up about women reporting rape, and why a good number of them don't report, because of society's outdated sexist ideas about rape victims and how they have to damn near be from a squeaky clean background in order to be believed at all. That's always been the messed-up attitude around it.

[–] vegicat 8 years ago

Kind of ridiculous to whine about how masculinity is "portrayed as toxic" in films, when you haven't even bothered to watch the movie you are whinging on about. You claim that movies like Goat aren't saying "anything remotely new or controversial", yet you haven't even watched the flick? Your bitterness is palpable and sad.

And, no, the concept of masculinity is not under attack. You should spend less time griping in MRA, MRM, MGTOW and other meninist groups and more time actually watching films you think are the reason you've been friend-zoned.

The minute you turned your little mini-rant to the topic of "faux rape", you lost all credibility. Well, that and your narcissistic, jacked-up claim that everything powerful and 'developed' in all of history is due to male accomplishment. Unbelievable.

Bottom line is, even if you did watch the movie, it is doubtful that you would even be able to understand the multiple underlying conflicts that include societal expectations, power abuse, peer pressure, group mentality, family rivalry, loyalty, and the undercurrent of viciousness of individual people -- none of which are exclusively male conflicts.

[–] tijmenraasveld 8 years ago

Good job throwing buzzwords at me and personally insulting me. It's pretty sad you immediately jump to the conclusion that i'm a friendzoned, redpilled MRA when you really know absolutely nothing about me. I personally think i was pretty careful in the way i phrased things in my original post. I prefer to have normal discussions with people, but clearly you're far more interested in being angry and intolerant to opposing opinions.

Kind of ridiculous to whine about how masculinity is "portrayed as toxic" in films, when you haven't even bothered to watch the movie you are whinging on about

It's true i haven't watched Goat, i was very careful to include that fact in my original post. Even if i haven't seen the movie, i think it's more than fair to say that based on its promotional material, Goat makes a clear effort to show the worst sides of masculinity. The trailer quotes one reviewer who calls the movie ''a tale of boys gone wild'' and we see many of the arguments about toxic masculinity being affirmed with footage of young men being shamed into having sex, physically and mentally abused and being socially pressured into all sorts of terrible things.

I want to make it VERY clear, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Everything shown in the trailer does happen and is something that should be addressed and criticized. my issue lies with Hollywood as a whole. Movies like Goat are celebrated for being critical of how bad masculinity can be, but when a movie celebrates the positive aspects of masculinity, the media attack it for being misogynistic or problematic in one way or the other.

The minute you turned your little mini-rant to the topic of "faux rape", you lost all credibility.

You can shrug this off as much as you want, but almost every majorly covered rape story in the last few years has been a sham, Matras girl being a great example. the reputation of the man accused is ruined whether he did or did not commit the crime and the media doesn't care. Even though this happens again and again on college campuses, the only mainstream movie i can think of that actually talks about it is Gone Girl. How about you tell me why it's such an insane premise to make a movie about a guy's life being ruined by a false rape accusation.

Well, that and your narcissistic, jacked-up claim that everything powerful and 'developed' in all of history is due to male accomplishment. Unbelievable.

I'm not saying women haven't contributed anything to the development of modern society at all, but it's a fact those women are exceptions. If you believe we live in a patriarchal society, you must also believe men created it.

[–] vegicat 8 years ago

Must suck to be you and to be so angry at life and women in general.

My condolences.

[–] tijmenraasveld 8 years ago

Wow, your utter retardation has once again exceeded my expectations. I write a long, detailed response to your petty *beep* and all you have to say is ''LOL GO BE ANGRY AT WOMEN U TROLL''

You didn't address a single point i made because in your world everyone who disagrees with you must be an angry, narcissist misogynist and can't have anything of value to add to a discussion. You're an insufferable *beep* and your opinions are based on delusion. I think that's what really deserves my condolences.

[–] vegicat 8 years ago

''LOL GO BE ANGRY AT WOMEN U TROLL''

By the way, women don't have any obligation to respond point-by-point to your whiny comments.

Watch the damn movie. It isn't even about what you're whining about. Talk about entitlement issues. Nobody cares about your opinion of a movie you didn't watch. The fact that you commented just to gripe about how poorly "men" are treated says everything about how miserable your life must be.

[–] tijmenraasveld 8 years ago

Of course you have no obligation to address my points, but i'd appreciate it if your first instinct when you disagree with someone wasn't to attack and insult. I've said this about three times already but apparently you're too dense to even read my posts before you start projectile vomiting buzzwords everywhere, so i'll say it one more time: my post wasn't criticizing Goat specifically, just the lack of diversity in perspectives we get to see in movies about college campus social life. Social Justice on campusses is just as cult-like, manipulative and evil as hazing, but a mainstream movie criticizing it is completely unthinkable in the current environment.Goat has every right to exist and i'm sure it's a great movie, so stop mischaracterizing literally everything i say.

[–] vegicat 8 years ago

Wow. Massively defensive and desperate for attention. What an attractive combo.

This is a movie discussion and review site, not your personal diary or rantboy site. If you expect to get any kind of respect for your blathering, have the common decency to actually watch the film in question.

Talk about special snowflake syndrome.

[–] tijmenraasveld 8 years ago

haha, i'm pretty much convinced you're just a troll now. desperate for attention? from who exactly? Also i'm impressed for the first time in this entire thread you've stated a fact. it's true imdb is a movie discussion and review site. That's not only a very good observation, but also the reason why i posted an opinion for people to discuss on it. The only one ranting and venting their repressed anger here is you. The fact that i haven't seen Goat isn't relevant to the point i was originally making. the subject of the film is what my post was about, not its treatment of it. You can argue therefore i shouldn't have posted it on this forum, but how that means i have''special snowflake syndrome'' is beyond me.

[–] vegicat 8 years ago

Your narcissistic need for attention is palpable. My condolences to anyone who knows you.

Posting a personal rant in a specific movie's page when you haven't even bothered to see the movie is the exact definition of special snowflake syndrome. The movie isn't about the things you are talking about, ergo; your whining is just self-centered, immature, attention-seeking behavior. Anyone reading your delusional self-absorbed comments can spot it a mile away.

Seek help.

[–] tijmenraasveld 8 years ago

I realize now i have issues. Thanks for making me realize this by calling me names anonymously over the internet. I apologize for ever criticizing your sacred movie by implying it paints a negative picture of fraternities (and has all the right to), and stating something as ridiculous as ''maybe someone can make a movie about this other thing going on on college campuses no one makes movies about'' Clearly you have an accurate picture of what kind of terrible person i am, and thanks to you i will try to better myself and take up the cause of feminism. Maybe i'll finally get laid once i start behaving like you, screaming at people online.

[–] vegicat 8 years ago

You're welcome!Glad to be of service.

[–] vegicat 8 years ago

[–] linus-hirschi 7 years ago

you two should get a room and maybe some sedatives too... yeesh

[–] vegicat 7 years ago

Nah. The dude should just watch a movie before he ignorantly whinges on about it.

[–] linus-hirschi 7 years ago

indubitably

[–] AllSunday 8 years ago

I'm not saying women haven't contributed anything to the development of modern society at all, but it's a fact those women are exceptions.

Good lord. What exactly are you implying? Never mind a history where for a long time women had to struggle for the right for their voices to matter. It's difficult for women to make equal historical contributions when they had to fight for the right to contribute at all.

[–] tijmenraasveld 8 years ago

I don't know where you got the idea that i don't believe that. I never implied what you're saying isn't true.

[–] dinerfood-901-211557 8 years ago

"Well, that and your narcissistic, jacked-up claim that everything powerful and 'developed' in all of history is due to male accomplishment. Unbelievable."

So glad those fem scientists were there to tame the West, build our major cities, the space program, and Silicon Valley, wait, they were in the show Halt and Catch Fire, along with the evil Steve Jobs character so they had a huge part init. Also they defended this country against those evil Axis powers thanks Grandma for your service from Guadacanal to Okinawa--and on D-Day, which we can rename Donut Day.

There's only one narcissistic gender and that's the one who wears the meat suit with the fakeup. Those who were predominately secretaries in the 60s now have progressed into admin assistants. Congrats

[–] Hasjtracker 8 years ago

There's only one narcissistic gender and that's the one who wears the meat suit with the fakeup. Those who were predominately secretaries in the 60s now have progressed into admin assistants. Congrats

Yeah they're awesome.Especially on their knees or all 4's.Love them.All of them.

[–] vegicat 8 years ago

You wish.

Insecure men are soooooo creepy and sad.

[–] dexterfishpaw 8 years ago

Guys like these should be ashamed of themselves. How can they act like this & go home & look their mothers in the eye. I e witnessed, firsthand, this type of behavior when I was in college some 25 years ago. Thee worst of the worst. Privileged, narcissistic, misogynistic sociopaths who are so incredibly entitled it's scary