MovieChat Forums > The VVitch: A New-England Folktale (2016) Discussion > Why would she become one of them though?

Why would she become one of them though?


That came entirely out of the blue. Unsatisfying end.

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Honestly nothing about this movie made sense. I understood everything that was going on but it had no depth at all. The plot holes were too gaping to ignore and made the story as a whole one big mess.

Why were the family banished?
Audiences can guess the many reasons why a family would be banished, but as the whole move hinged upon them being alone I felt it stupid to just not mention the reason.

Why were the witches doing this? Why did she join in the end? She had no one else so why not?

Very disappointing. You can't make a movie with these many plot holes and leave it up to the audience. There is an art to that notion but this wasn't it.

My opinion, of course.

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Hold on to your butts

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They got banished because they refused to live under the law of the government because it clashed with the laws of God. Thats not a freakin guess, thats what they outright said in the movie!

And she became a witch because - A) it was her only way of surviving or B) she was tired of being a boring Christian thatll only drive you mad. She wanted to live deliciously.

So theres no plot holes, at least that you and the OP mentioned, its all there to see and its fairly easy to understand. Cmon people!!!

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They got banished because they refused to live under the law of the government because it clashed with the laws of God. Thats not a freakin guess, thats what they outright said in the movie!


That really doesn't make sense, unless the puritans had a corrupt government, which I doubt. What did they do? It's important to know, the family must have done something.

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Why does it matter??? They chose God over government. They chose their eternal soul over the laws of that plantation. Whatever they did it was probably minor, because any law of God is not going to be anything too bad, like stealing for instance, but the government probably couldnt let it pass because then they would be favored over the others.

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God's laws won't cause anything bad? How about all those innocents that were killed for being accused of witchcraft, or the crusades, or all the human sacrifices. The bible even praises Job for being ready to kill his own son if that's what he thought God wanted. So much of the evil done in the world is done in God's name. And then there's God's laws themselves which clearly advocates putting people to death for insulting him or loving the wrong person, etc.

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Job was never in the position of having to kill his son, what happened to him was against his will because god was testing him, I agree with some of what you say but at least make an effort to get it right.

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Ah, OK, I was confusing Job with Abraham who was ordered by God to sacrifice his son to him but stopped him at the last minute, the point being to test whether he really loved God, which he passed. Any way you look at it, the god of Abraham was a real bastard and because so many people like him that way we all continually pay the price.

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Why were the family banished?: for dishonoring the laws of the commonwealth and the church with his prideful conceit..

It was the first thing that happened in the film and it was very easy to understand.

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No I know THAT but I wanted to know exactly HOW they dishonored the laws of the Church and the commonwealth...That was my point




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Hold on to your butts

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But that is made very clear both through the opening scene and later the narrative and his behavior in general? Anyway, here's your answer: He did not see them as true practitioners of the faith and they would have none of that - they refused to be judged by him:

He says: "For what? Was it not for the pure and faithful dispensation of the Gospels and the Kingdom of God?"

They say: "We are your judges, and not you ours!"

He says: "How sadly has the lord testified again you"

In other ways he saw himself as superior and one could even suggest that he suffered from a small god-complex. If you look at Da Vincis "The last supper" and compare that to the scene where they all are seated at the table you should notice a slight resemblance ...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Last_Supper_%28copy%29_-_WGA12732.jpg

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3399744768/tt4263482?ref_=ttmd_md_pv

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But what did he do?? It's important to know. Is he a hypocrite? Was he in the wrong? etc.

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Straight talk then ;-) "William was talking trash about his bosses because he thought he was better than they were"

That is at least what I think is clearly implied by the opening sequence

He called them false Christians & they said he was guilty of prideful conceit => i.e. it is said explicitly that he talked trash about them because he obviously held himself in high regard. That's enough to get you fired

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that seems really irrational.

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What - the council or William?

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from the council. Something must have happened.

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Yes, and I've just said what happened. Trash talk. Maybe he did some soapbox sessions in the village saying that they all sucked. He was undermining their authority - he was a threat to them

Open to suggestions though. What do you think he should have done to deserve a punishment like that?

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Oh I see.

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Just assume he was one of these types: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmyuE0NpNgE

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The movie is supposed to take place in the 1600's...everyone was irrational then.

I read this in a chola accent.

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That is not true.

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Are you sure?

I read this in a chola accent.

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William had the gall to declare that this community, specifically founded to be completely faithful to the "Gospel", was not doing nearly a good enough job. Remember, these were people who left comfortable (for the 1600s) lives in England to cross a vast ocean and settle in a hostile wilderness because they sincerely believed that the official state religion in England (what we now call the Anglican Church) was a hairs breath from what they would have called "Roman Popery", or Roman Catholicism. To them, this was no better than pagan idolatry, since the English Church kept many of the practices of the traditional Roman Christianity (like communion, the sacraments, the saints, etc.) And to be fair, the Anglican Church did come into being simply because Henry VIII couldn't get a divorce from his wife and marry his mistress in any other way but to separate from Rome. Not very holy, that. Henry, and his final successor, Queen Elizabeth I, were lukewarm Protestants and had no interest in making the English Church more in line with the doctrines of the radical Protestant sects of the low countries, which the people in the film follow. The religious fanatics who became the Puritans saw no recourse but to leave England for good, for the sake of their souls and those of their children, since they would have been forced to participate in Anglican religious rites had they remained (no such thing as separation of Church and State in this period.)

The Massachusetts Bay Colony was founded by people who implicitly agreed that when they arrived and entered a settlement, they would abide by the tenets of John Calvin. There would be no other form of worship but prayer, baptism, and the reading of the Bible. Religious variation of any kind could not be tolerated. If any one member of the community deviated from these laws, they were automatically a threat to everyone, since it was believed that God visited his wrath on an entire community if even one of it's members stepped out of line. William may have been preaching an even more fundamentalist doctrine than that prescribed by the Theocratic leaders of the colony. Anne Hutchinson, a real Puritan woman who lived a few years after this story is set, was banished from the colony for preaching, privately, in her home, her own religious doctrines based on her personal reading of the Bible. Anyone who deviated from the norm and did not publicly repent was cast out by force, in the name of the spiritual safety of the colony. That's what happened to William and his family.

It was William's egotistical assumption that he somehow was closer to God than the rest of the colony (which, as a supposed Calvinist would have been blasphemous) that sets him and his family into the clutches of old scratch. The Devil was believed to haunt the boundaries of God Fearing towns in New England, since this was where wild animals and "savages" roamed. By refusing to apologize and conform and taking his family into the wilderness, William blindly put all their souls in mortal danger.

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How did these settlements came about? Didn't the people that came to America did so in the name of England? Wasn't it the same government?

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How did these settlements came about? Didn't the people that came to America did so in the name of England? Wasn't it the same government?
No, the Pilgrims came to America to get away from England. The story of the family in The Witch is a mini version of the story of the Pilgrims. They left England because Englands church wasnt pure enough. Later on England joined them.

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But didn't the first settlements were people from England in the name of the Queen? Virginia and all that? How did the pilgrims were allowed to have their own land when England conquered everything?

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Im not sure the order of things but I know that the Mayflower Pilgrims who landed in Massachusetts were not there representing England, they snuck out of England and did it completely on their own. The land they took over was un-owned by any European country, just the Indians. But at first there werent even that many Indians, thus allowing them to set up a settlement.

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William had the gall to declare that this community, specifically founded to be completely faithful to the "Gospel", was not doing nearly a good enough job. Remember, these were people who left comfortable (for the 1600s) lives in England to cross a vast ocean and settle in a hostile wilderness because they sincerely believed that the official state religion in England (what we now call the Anglican Church) was a hairs breath from what they would have called "Roman Popery", or Roman Catholicism. To them, this was no better than pagan idolatry, since the English Church kept many of the practices of the traditional Roman Christianity (like communion, the sacraments, the saints, etc.) And to be fair, the Anglican Church did come into being simply because Henry VIII couldn't get a divorce from his wife and marry his mistress in any other way but to separate from Rome. Not very holy, that. Henry, and his final successor, Queen Elizabeth I, were lukewarm Protestants and had no interest in making the English Church more in line with the doctrines of the radical Protestant sects of the low countries, which the people in the film follow. The religious fanatics who became the Puritans saw no recourse but to leave England for good, for the sake of their souls and those of their children, since they would have been forced to participate in Anglican religious rites had they remained (no such thing as separation of Church and State in this period.)

The Massachusetts Bay Colony was founded by people who implicitly agreed that when they arrived and entered a settlement, they would abide by the tenets of John Calvin. There would be no other form of worship but prayer, baptism, and the reading of the Bible. Religious variation of any kind could not be tolerated. If any one member of the community deviated from these laws, they were automatically a threat to everyone, since it was believed that God visited his wrath on an entire community if even one of it's members stepped out of line. William may have been preaching an even more fundamentalist doctrine than that prescribed by the Theocratic leaders of the colony. Anne Hutchinson, a real Puritan woman who lived a few years after this story is set, was banished from the colony for preaching, privately, in her home, her own religious doctrines based on her personal reading of the Bible. Anyone who deviated from the norm and did not publicly repent was cast out by force, in the name of the spiritual safety of the colony. That's what happened to William and his family.

It was William's egotistical assumption that he somehow was closer to God than the rest of the colony (which, as a supposed Calvinist would have been blasphemous) that sets him and his family into the clutches of old scratch. The Devil was believed to haunt the boundaries of God Fearing towns in New England, since this was where wild animals and "savages" roamed. By refusing to apologize and conform and taking his family into the wilderness, William blindly put all their souls in mortal danger.
And his lack of integrity with the family further cements that the move was ego driven.

Old scratch? Thats cool.

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Magnificent post.

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[deleted]

Why is mediocrity exalted and admired and when it is questioned people on imdb tell you to go see transformers or that you need to be spoonfed?

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I dont think youd understand Transformers either so...

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Why is mediocrity exalted and admired and when it is questioned people on imdb tell you to go see transformers or that you need to be spoonfed?


Dude, you claim this is mediocrity like some sort of fact, you want answers and when some people provide it to you you're still calling it mediocre and then start playing a victim.

Maybe people deserve to be spoonfed seeing how stupid they are online.

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[deleted]

lol that is a crock of sh*t. What on earth makes you think that this movie demands any thinking?? What is so brilliant about it?? See, the problem is this: There are directors out there with no point of view and no story to tell, and they want you to do the work for them. I'm not going to do that. This movie literally says nothing beyond a family being terrorized by a witch.

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What on earth makes you think that this movie demands any thinking??



You say that but you keep asking questions and people have had to explain things to you at length.

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That's because the movie is full of plotholes and character inconsistencies.

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Its not important why, just that they did. Its a very puritanical thing to do to always try and be pure. Its a microcosm of the puritanical version of the Mayflower. They left England because of the lack of purity in the way they practiced Christianity.

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It felt important to me why especially since, as I have said, the whole story hinged upon the fact. I just think know exactly how they did this would give the story more meat on the bone.



___________________________________________________
Hold on to your butts

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Well I think youre bringing up a good point because it seems as hardcore as they are there isnt a society in existence that could satisfy their brand of Christianity. So they isolate and isolate until the basic meaning of Christianity, that of love and forgiveness gets completely lost and you are just running away from demons. As Ive said its a self fulfilling prophecy because they talk of God but according to the family he is nowhere to be found, only evil.

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That is such bullsh!t! Wow.

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That is such bullsh!t! Wow.
Let this be an example of the haters not giving a detailed retort to a well thought out answer, something the haters keep on claiming the fans dont do.

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I think you're in need of a re-read.

You'd feel cocky too if you were full of myself.

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I think you're in need of a re-read.
Shoo fly

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Just saying... the one you said is a "hater" wasn't the hater at all.

You'd feel cocky too if you were full of myself.

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I was replying to Jurassicpark13, not you.

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I was replying to Jurassicpark13, not you.
Ooops, nevermind.

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It's fine, I do it all the time.

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You are correct, specially since that would reveal his character. What if he was actually in the wrong? It's important to know. This movie is very flawed.

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It doesn't matter if he was in the wrong or the counsil was! You're missing the entire point, not to mention you're forgetting a very important scene toward the end where he admits he has been prideful...

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It is not important to know at all. And no it is not relevant to the story.
A minor detail like this not being explained is not a flaw.

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It is important to know because nowhere in the film was it implied that she had a particular problem with her faith, or wasn't entirely onboard so it came out of the blue for me.

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She did seem faithful but in what way did god help her? He/she/it did not so after keeping her faith and watching the evil force just destroy everything I think that you must be wondering why would god allow all this too happen. The Devil was clearly more powerful that god in this film.

To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock

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That has never deterred humanity from dumping God or religion, it never will. What made HER do it? That's the question.

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That has never deterred humanity from dumping God or religion, it never will. What made HER do it? That's the question.
In the beginning of the movie it shows Thomasin staying behind at the meeting that kicked them out, looking at the council members seemingly saying, "dont kick us out, this is no good!" So she has already shown that she is smarter than the rest and therefore shows that she doubts this path there supposed more pure version of Christianity is sending them on. Right there she is splitting from Christianity a little. Of course that little thing isnt going to make her say, "thats it I renounce Christianity!" No, its not that easy what with the threat of hellfire and not wanting to be disobedient and disappoint her parents. Now look at her pray in the beginning when she said she 'disobeyed the commandments in thought'. That isnt just a little girl praying, shes shown as a little sexy even if she isnt trying to be. All these subtle things are pointing in a direction that when the fit hits the shan she says *beep* you religion! You suck!!! This is why she left. It was plain to me and I didnt *beep* blame her.

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that's your imagination I think, I didn't see any of that.

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Well a rock wouldnt see it either. Not saying youre a rock, nor am I not saying it.

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None of that was on the screen, quite the opposite, she prays, does what she has to do, so you go ahead.

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She also shows cleavage and after her brother gets caught looking, rocks him in her arms and then has a tickling fight with him. Shes also shown leaving her hands on the father a little longer than necessary when changing his shirt. Not saying she meant to do any of these things, thats ambiguous, but if you dont think these things, and more, werent meant to be at least thought of...I dont know what to say.

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I'm not here to do the filmmaker's job for them, I'm here to be told a story, if he wanted to say she was an incestuous trollop then he should have stated that. I'm not going to add meaning to something that isn't there because I'm not going to weave invisible clothes for the naked emperor, that's what people with no criteria do.

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Ok

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she prays, does what she has to do, so you go ahead.


She prays insincerely, and she certainly does not do what she has to do. She is shown to be an evil psychopath starting in the same prayer scene that you cite, in which she admits to breaking all of the Commandments in her heart, which would include the Commandment "You shall not murder." And her psychopathy just escalates in many ways from that point on...including when she actually does what she said her evil heart has always wanted when she brutally murders her mother.

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not true at all.

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Hahaha that was the most obvious lie ever!
You didn't already know that at all. The reason why they dishonored the laws of the church is not important to the story and you know this!

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No I know THAT but I wanted to know exactly HOW they dishonored the laws of the Church and the commonwealth...That was my point


It's stated multiple times that he was proud.

Basically he was an arrogant ass belittling them publicly.

Not everything in a film has to be explained in minute detail, just pay attention. Ultimately, why they left isn't even that important. The only thing that matters is that they were isolated spiritually and physically.

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Sadly, I think modern box office returns are proving over and over again that Hollywood can sh** out any manner of film, very light on actual substance or plot, and many movie-goers will still hail it as "great".

From an artistic perspective, I can say that yeah, the movie had some interesting cinematography. And I suppose some solid acting. But outside of that? There practically IS no plot. It's so thin on actual substance that it was hard to follow. Like you, I understood what I was supposed to be seeing. It's just that none of what I was being shown actually mattered or made much sense.

I think the key difference between older films, and a lot (not ALL) modern films, and a key reason why so many classics ARE classic, while so many modern films are NOT, is precisely because the art of storytelling has been lost on many new filmmakers. They are all about flash and sizzle, not substance. Old films, like Hitchcock, were all ABOUT the story, and they were great because every other aspect of the film SERVED the story. Film is a storytelling medium, just visual. But it really does seem many have forgotten that.

Now it's apparently acceptable, by both filmmakers AND film audiences, to present a spectacle, and little else.

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I don't think you understand what a "plot hole" is.

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Three reasons she joined the witches:

1) Survival. She wouldn't be able to make it on her own and it would be two days' walk to the town, where she would be accused of murder or witchcraft anyway.

2) Pleasure. She had endured a joyless existence of constant backbreaking labor and prayer and a parent who obsessed about sin and damnation. Black Philip and the witches promised joys and pleasures she had been denied.

3) Independence. She was always working and under her parents' thumbs. They were talking about either marrying her off or hiring her out as a maid. She wanted to make her OWN decisions and live her own life. (Remember, this was a time when a single woman didn't have many options and fewer rights.) Joining the witches was her only way of finding self-determination and being her own person.


"Value your education. It's something nobody can ever take away from you." My mom.

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Because she was being demonized simply for being a woman. Isn't that, in a way, evil? She decided to move on into a group that would accept her.

You'd feel cocky too if you were full of myself.

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Her family was dead. She most likely would not have been welcomed back in the town and she couldn't survive on her own.

What else could she do?

~~~
"I'm not used to being out in months that don't begin with 'O'."
-The Ringmaster, Dark Harbor

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Seriously? Everyone she loved turned on her, tormented her, mistrusted, and tried to kill her. You can tell from very early on she wasn't particularly happy in that home to begin with. She was offered comforts, companionship, and things beyond her wildest dreams. Why wouldn't she become one of them?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-21AtiWV3TE

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Things like what? If being a witch is so good why are they naked and gross in the forest?

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All the things she's offered before she signs her name? They're naked and gross in the forest because they're having a bangin' party, duh I don't know what all the realities of being a witch in this world are. All I know is she was an unhappy person tempted by things she had never experienced.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-21AtiWV3TE

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They are liberated from the smothering, judgemental 'morality' and 'rules' of society, free to be feral and no longer prisoners of a woman-hating religious society. Being naked and 'gross' in the forest is our pre-Christian history in Paganism, and it lives deep within us and our history, so it's not that hard to imagine people doing it, especially in the 17th century. Plus they get to fly around in the sky, which would be awesome.

I'm sure all of this came at a price, though: once you died, your soul would burn for eternity in Hades or something. Probably still worth it!

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They don'0t seem liberated to me.

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So she basically traded one woman hating society for another? She sold her soul to the devil. She belongs to him now. Forever. In what world is that 'liberating'?

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It is liberation from the stagnancy, repression and control of her previous situation. I don't recall Satan telling her to go cook his dinner and pray when she signed over her soul -- on the contrary, he offered her the chance to see the world and do whatever she wants, free of repression. (You see, it was a choice offered to her; her previous situation was forced upon her.)

It's comical that you cannot comprehend that this is liberation from her previous lifestyle; it is not complete liberation from everything -- she had to sign away her soul to get it -- because nothing ever is. There is zero evidence provided in the film that the witches are 'hated' by Satan, or members of any society, for that matter.

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Telling your daughter to cook dinner is repression? Since when? It wasn't like anyone was sitting on their ass while she did all the work. I seem to remember the father busting his ass in the pouring rain to make sure there was firewood to keep the family warm, and hunting with his son to have dinner to cook in the first place. They were living on a farm. Farm life is repressive to everyone.

Christ if cooking dinner is your idea of repression then you live a dangerously sheltered life.
I remember being 9 years old and made to walk 2 miles in the blistering cold to fetch groceries while my mother was at home working to support me. It never occurred to me to consider that a life of repression and control. Was I wrong? Unbelievable.

And the witches were not hated by Satan anymore than a slave owner hates his slaves. They do his bidding nonetheless. They belong to him. They are owned by him. Why is it repression and control when she has to do house chores but liberation when she is condemned to a life of murder and dark magic? This makes no sense. Her soul is condemned to hell for the rest of eternity. And that's a better and more liberating alternative than having to cook dinner?

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Lol yes, let’s pretend that women weren’t oppressed in the 17th century.

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Everyone she loved turned on her, tormented her, mistrusted, and tried to kill her.


They turned on her as a direct result of her own psychopathic tendencies (i.e. she threatened to cannibalize her sibling) which she displayed to them.

She turned on them before they turned on her.

Which brings me back to the OP's question: she became one of them because like them, she too was an evil psychopathic murderer.

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Her entire family was dead. She had no one left. She murdered her mother. She was never going to get into heaven. Her soul was worthless, so she sold it to the only interested party.

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^^^^Good point, dont think Ive seen the perspective of not going to heaven as a reason she joined.

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Not satisfying enough an explanation for me.

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No explanation will be. You're clearly a very stubborn person.
Look, try to understand....
This girl, who we are given 1 and a half hours to get to know, could have any reason to join the coven at the end.
Why do people think it is so unlikely? Do people know this fictional character enough personally, to be able to say "she would never do that"?

People do all kinds of unexpected things in real life all the time.
Maybe, she was just naturally evil? You can't say that can't be true because again, we don't know this person.
You NEVER know what is going on in a person's mind.

She joined the coven because it sounded like a better option that going to serve for some random family.
Maybe to you, it doesn't sound like a better option....
But we are all different lol. To THIS person, it was the best option.
Maybe, she just wasn't a good person. Maybe she was already a natural witch.
The possibilities are endless because we do not know this person!

You can't say "that was out of character" because again, we're given an hour and a half to get to know this character and again, you never know what is going on in someone's head.

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She chose too join because it was simply the best option she had left open too her. What would she say when it was found out that the rest of the family had died? "it was witch craft?" Well given the time setting it was possible they would believe it maybe a coven was already suspected too exist as I am sure this is not the only family effected. However how long would it take for them too start suspecting her of the deeds of being the actual witch? People were very paranoid at that time.

Even if they did believe her what did she have left a farm with no crop a evil goat? She would have starved too death over winter.

So the devils offer of butter and a better life of travel ect was very tempting too her, remember her religion had failed her so why not join one that obviously actually did offer her at least something.

To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock

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[deleted]

Because teenage girls are stupid and always fall into temptation like that!

It's why they need so many abortions!

Yep, what they need is to stay barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen to keep them from demonic temptations, because CLEARLY they're not smart of strong enough to make good choices, like us men!

(Alondro feeds on the femnazi rage for more troll food.)

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Alondro has a lot of free time.

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And who decided that you are a man, boy?

So you know, the correct phrase in English is “we men,” not “us men.” Think (and I realize that’s asking a lot of you): do us men make a lot of good choices, or do WE [men] make a lot of good choices? Yes, I’m mocking you, troglodyte.

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