I have little tolerance for films and books that are this unrealistic. one cannot simply change identities in the ways that this woman did. She has credit cards, passports, amd picture IDs which she seemed to obtain at the drop of a hat. It is so hard to change one's identity, especially in this day and age. No attention was given to how she did all of this, probably because the film is a fantasy, but sheesh.
shareExactly, I was hoping for at least a snippet of information how she did it.
// gergely-szabo.com
To the extent implied in the movie, quite possibly but I have known at least 2 people that are like Rachel's character in the movie. They exist. One was a bipolar impulsive liar, in that she wasn't lying to cover her tracks or cos she had something to hide, she did it on impulse, for no particular reason, maybe it gave her a kick.
The amazing thing about her was how easy it was to get away with it, cos no one is expecting people to pull lies at that level. Initially he concocted a story that she was a lyric writer for UK boy bands and managed to pull in a class of school children into a recording studio to record a charity song for child cancer. Her story was uncheckable easily, and she was confident in her bluff. It was amazing to watch. I knew her for 4 years and suspected nothing for the first 6 months. By 1 year I knew but for the following 3 years everything was a guessing game of what was real and what was fabricated. I stuck around and tolerated it because you never quite knew what was happening, or why, and you think you can fix it. doctors and Councillors were involved but nothing came of it because she was an expert at the twist.
This movie is totally believable for that aspect.
like the movie we never did find why.
As for the fake IDs she didn't have official documents like drivers licenses but she did have fake letters from lawyers, emails from managers, etc etc. everyone was kept chasing their tail, and no one quite knew all the pieces.
Well, people who do this regularly must just get off on fooling the world, and they have the time and energy to do so. But, I imagine, only on a superficial level. To obtain documents that are verifiable and that will stand up to scrutiny takes time and a lot of money. One needs to create a fake past as well as a present, and it is not something you do on a lark one day because you're bored, have low self esteem, or are running from your last bad decision.
shareyeah the id cards seemed a bit much, although doable I guess, but why would you bother? just don't make them part of the deal. The thing with my 'friend' is that she would present F all evidence, just the minimum, just 'something' and nobody blinked at it, cos she did it as smoothly and convincingly as Rachael. It really was amazing what she got away with with so little actual hard evidence, and from being on the other side of it, ie the conned, it's really hard to see past it if it's done right, you instinctively don't want to call Bullsh!t because you don't want to believe it exists. I think Rachael pulled that aspect of it off quite well. The old lady scene for example. She had a line for everything. Family were doctors, in if for the money quip, no room for people to smell a rat. just kept it moving so they couldn't pick out the bullsh!t aspects of he story.
shareYeah, I dunno. Awful lot of trouble to go thru for no apparent reason.
shareThat was the weird thing about the person I knew. There was no apparent reason for doing it. She had a loving family and was an attractive appealing person to be around as they were. I'm pretty sure her condition was a mental one, bipolar disorder with a side order of impulsive lying and who knows what else. I don't think she could stop herself. The thing was it's not like having a broken arm where it's obvious something is wrong, and it's really hard to catch them out, really hard. And it's only criminal if it's forging business documents etc, so there's no real slam down unless they mess up bad and do something highly illegal. Her doctor visits came up with depression and bipolar disorder for which she was given medication, but it never really went away and she never accepted she had a problem, although like Rachel's character she knew and didn't know what to do about it.In the film it's set around the one time and one person she came straight to, and nothing really came of it. She was honest to Tom, and maybe that was her cry for help, but the movie never went further.
There's got to be some level of addiction to it too.
It wasn't nearly as glamorous as this movie portrayed it, although I'm questioning if they did portray it as glamorous really. She looked pretty worn down and jaded in the montage through the characters shots.
she stated the reason at one point:
people think they know you after a while
and cage you in their preconceived mind set
about the unrealism: many of the impersonations where not done in the states
and are probably more easier to do elswhere
hmmm, interesting. don't know that that makes sense to me, she's annoy that people think they're beginning to know her so she opts out? one of the reasons she was visiting Tom is that he was the last person to know her before she went off.
shareI think the reaction in this thread is the point to the movie. How she did it and the practicalities are not important that's not what this film wants you to think about. It focuses on the range of change or differences that we will tolerate within the human tribe. Moving cities, jobs, houses even countries is within the range, even changing lifestyles and going off the grid for a while volunteering is at the edge and exotic and fascinating. At the birthday party you could see the reaction and demeanour change as her story unfolded. Changing identities and even personalities was too weird and unacceptable, people started to turn and become suspicious, this was odd she was now a threat to be scorned and avoided. There must be a sinister motive. "when people profess to understand me and want a piece ....." or words to that effect is when I change can't remember exactly.
Shannon's charachter gets to taste this when they explore in the Danny Glover and Kathy Bates scene, is fascinated by the potential and of shedding who you are. He suddenly sees his life for what it is and California now looks interesting but changing lovers, personality, identity is too much.
Interesting take on it, I didn't pick up on that aspect.
Were they shocked by her because of her casualness with lying and that they sensed they were being lied to? Every word that came out of her mouth could have been a lie, they had no way of knowing and as soon as they smelled a rat their reactions hardened. They were fine with it when it was just about a lush and varied life, it's when she took it to a self-centered 'screw everyone else, this is about me, I left them without explanation' level that they started to get offended, and then when they caught her out on her story.
Exactly this.👏
share[deleted]
[deleted]
not unrealistic per se.. in Germany there was a guy pretending to be doc and a psychiatrist for 15 years and he was head of a whole psychiatric institution for a while: Gert Postel
shareyes, there's also the case of Chong Kim who fabricated the story of being abducted into the sex slave industry. A private investigator found pictures of her at high school/ University during the time she alleged she was abducted.
People took her at her word for so long they actually made a movie about her life story. She still has some people believing her even in the face of evidence to the contrary and gives promotional paid speeches based on her fiction of a life.
The fascinating thing is people's ability to overlook the possibility of fabrication and take people at face value even though we know this stuff goes on. Do we really want to acknowledge we live in a world where we can't trust anything without proof?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1734433/reference
Do we really want to acknowledge we live in a world where we can't trust anything without proof?
so called realism is why movies are so focking crappy, it actually came from focking marxism by the way
sharewhy would you need fake id's. all you have to do is change your name. get new id's on a different name and move far away. nobody will know about your new life.
shareIf, for the sake of argument, they managed to find a believable way of doing this and filmed it, it would entirely take over the storyline. It would become a film about how to do it technically. I do not think this is what it's about.
shareIf, for the sake of argument, they managed to find a believable way of doing this and filmed it, it would entirely take over the storyline. It would become a film about how to do it technically. I do not think this is what it's about.The truth of it is it is quite doable. MI-5 and our CIA provide what's called "Legends" for people all the time. We even create new identities for those who enter our witness protection. The trouble with this for this film is that she apparently has easy access to such methods without so much as giving us a hint of how. She has deep pockets, how? She can get birth certificates for new driver's licenses, how? Social Security Numbers, how? I think they went in too far or didn't feel the viewing audience would fixate on those pesky details, for to tell a psychological tale of a fantasy, someone thinks, we all have... to walk away. Trouble is in this fantasy she wishes to keep walking.
Keep in mind this is a movie, not a documentary. OK, your suspension of disbelief suffered, and that ruined it for you, fair enough, everything is subjective ... but that does not meant that your "fix" would actually work. It's a detraction from the theme of the movie, which is more to do with re-inventing oneself and finding meaning in one's way in life. She invented nine personalities, all of her own, but at the end none of them really satisfied her ... and he was equally stuck in his own "perfect" situation, unhappy.
Why should we care how she did it technically? How would adding 15 minutes of plausible explanation make the message more effective? I just don't see it.
Thanks, trisul, but I liked the movie.
I also got the part how the 'other' identities were helping, how did she put it, complete herself somehow?
My issue is with her hurting people who come to like and/or trust her in these new personas. People who form affections for her. Does she love? Does she develop any affection for them? I find pulling out when they do, if the can, rather mean-spirited, but that, according to you, is suffering from not suspending my belief system, and values, I suspect for the end product of her making this better person by doing all this? Is there any end-game for her?
GFW
No, no, I agree with you about her hurting other people in her life. I think that is an excellent point, probably part of the reason for her lack of happiness in the long term. I was only arguing that not knowing how she technically pulled off a change of identity did not bother me too much.
shareIt did me in that they took the time to show the credit cards, drivers licenses, and so it was either them not panning up and out or being too into the creative spirit of it not to think us lowly audience members would notice, ;) or they didn't care or thought doing that was easy enough? It bothered me because it was an easy fix. She could be seen, only once, securing them on the 'black market' or something like that.
GFW
From my own experience with a similar situation in real life, the person can't help themselves, it's part of the condition. I don't think they mean to hurt others, I think they can't let that stop the process, and are hardened to it, much like alcoholics and drug addicts don't beat themselves up over the damage their actions do to those around them. The primary focus is the addiction. Everything else is collateral damage. But again that is not fully understood. it's open ended and unanswered, its a guess because what really goes on inside their head is unknown.
With my attempt at heart to heart 'explain it to me chats' I never got any answers, acknowledgements etc. Either they don't understand themselves what goes on inside their heads and what motivates them, or they're not telling. The end result is the move on and leave it all unanswered.
I couldn't agree more with you from your RL experience along with the constant cycle of creating, living, getting 'caught', then leaving with it owning little to no effect on her. Why? Because it's an addiction like anything else. Addiction to whatever is all about the fix, or in this case, the high. They think of nothing else. The need grows. They plan. They use. The get high. But normal 'addicts' for the most part hit an "I'm never again..." speed bump. This one has a flash of it but loves her high more than anything or anyone. And why not? She's the means. She's convinced herself she doesn't get in close enough so they'll recover from their time with her. She's clearly not into intimacy on any level, emotional or physical.
Addicts experience remorse. They know. Here? There isn't any compassion or come down at all. It's selfish. Self-fulfilling. Compulsive. Obsessive. She does, however, have a pocket in her brain for Tom. Tom was 'before' all this. Her mirror of when she was 'normal' but she was more interested in coming for him, getting him to cut ties, and come with her. Mission-oriented. A new escalating high, as they all need this, was to get him to increase the danger.
And any 'care' showed to the injured woman was in direct regard to her being offered an opportunity to demonstrate the simplicity of her pathological malfunction where it's a type of an acquired survival technique developed to give them so type of twisted purpose in life.
Even meeting up with the 'one person' who 'knew' her wasn't enough especially since he wasn't interested in getting into the never-ending circle of reinventing with her. There is no shame like in Shame the movie with Michael Fassbender where, at least, we get hints other than I 'hate my name' or her mother and her 'weren't close' as to what lies at the core, child abuse.
Child abuse, one of the five primary types: neglect, emotional, psychological, sexual, verbal, is the primary core for all addictions. What this does for her, this acting out, numbs her like all types of sex did for the character in Shame. Whenever triggered by this or that they take off to numb themselves with their unique type of drug. It could be food, shopping, gambling, intimate relations, drugs, alcohol, and in this case a kind of reinventing all to escape who they are and, more importantly, what they feel. Only, again, apart from the long lingering look at the piano (without a flashback to tie into the story, which would give us a hint and make it discernable, we're left to fill in the blanks.
And this leads us to why some films are actually very good but end up duds. We, the audience, would prefer fantasy / MARVEL / cartoons even over anything that exposes old wounds.
Can Alice/Jennifer be helped? Of course, but she has to hit bottom first. And that's kind of touch when you have the means, opportunity, and motive to keep on with your 'drug' of choice like she does. The fella in Shame got himself put in a touchy situation where something transpired to give him a wake-up call. And, by the way, that ending, too, is ambiguous but yet that twinkle in his eye has dulled without a doubt. But for this fictional character? She's nowhere close to coming close to any bottom. She's smart, attractive, educated, imaginative, and loaded.
GFW
who is sorry she's so verbose
I'm not so sure Alice can be helped. She never acknowledged she had a problem, or that anything was wrong with her, although her eyes did register the wariness and pain. As you say she's miles from rock bottom, and if my RL experience is anything to go by there is never any real need or urgency to change, because there is no problem, part of the act of deceiving others is to deceive yourself. "This is my normal", "this is how I live". I never saw any acknowledgement of a problem, even when you catch them out on a big lie, a complex set up, there's still the attempt to twist it into the next play. It must be tiring. Like Alice I never saw an acknowledgement of a problem, but I also never really saw an acknowledgement of the existence of the condition, even with a few solid callouts, inescapable caught red handed, and I wasn't necessarily the mark.
The intimacy thing? True internal intimacy through honesty; well Alice did come clean to Tom, in that she frankly copped to the lot. Not her motivation or how she felt, but the to act. With my RL experience I never saw that happen, so for Alice that's got to be a sizable leap for her. But again, nowhere near rock bottom. This isn't an addiction that forces the sufferer to need to change their way of living, because they can just change their identity. Unlike other addictions such as drug and alcohol, her health isn't at stake.
The Tom encounter was just one small blip on her trajectory, one small sideways detour, or step back, and was possibly as uneventful, meaningless, and disposable as any role she plays.
Tom dodged a bullet but doesn't know it, and Alice is on a moving train she can't get off off.
You remind me of the fanboys who were whining about the Hobbits eating tomatoes on top of Weatertop as not being very realistic either.
shareNo, it isn't "unrealism" but more realism which means no 'tied in a bow' (happy) endings. Tom could save Alice, et. al. Alice couldn't convince Tom to take to the road to nowhere with her. In a way, that's a good thing, what she does is costly, literally, and figuratively. She enters and exits people's lives in some selfish attempt at keeping herself challenged, entertained, whatever psyche evals by any armchair shrinks out there could come up with. ;)
And like I say, you can't stop being somebody. Trouble is we don't understand and aren't clued in to... why. And in a lot of ways with people who come / go in our lives, we don't know that either.
For Tom, he can safely tell himself he dodged a bullet. Men don't want to be with incomplete, damaged, fallen, but mostly, unhappy women... regardless of what they look like.
And if her issues are mental, which they clearly are, it's up to her to hit a bottom, but she apparently has an endly supply of money, contacts to get birth certificates, etc, to continue to enable her to create new identities, or, more likely, this is just fantasy on the writer(s) part, but many, run through lives trying to out-pace their past. Not too sure they ever can, which means, they make for bad company. And like they say, no company is better than bad company.
GFW
I liked the ambiguity of it, the unfinished open end, the failure to go anywhere, 'dodged a bullet' aspect of it. People are saying nothing happened but I think that's because the missed seeing what actually did happen. It was between the lines, it wasn't delivered in loud dialog and voice over, but it certainly was there.
shareSo did she come back to the one man she was happy only to find he was happy, but in a place of a possible interruption of that in that he really did want to California, with another but decided when he said nothing to her offer to go with him decided it was over between them and he's better off without her?
GFW
I think it was a temporary glitch in her life. She's as confused as the confusion she rains down on everyone else. She's locked in this loop of changing and popped out of it to tell the truth for one short instant, and then she's gone. She didn't have a plan, she was just making it up as she went along, always on the move, and her path crossed with his, and then the went their different ways again.
share