MovieChat Forums > Avengers: Endgame (2019) Discussion > *SPOLIERS* The one thing I dont get...

*SPOLIERS* The one thing I dont get...


Ok, so I have a question about Captain America returning back to and living through his life again in the past.

This may have been explained and I just missed it, or its possible I'm too stupid to understand. I'll do my best trying to explain it briefly..

So when the Avengers travel into the past, they encounter their old selves and apparently are co-existing in the past.

At the end, Cap travels back in time permanently, and I assume his past self is still there.

So how did he pull this off? Did he off his former self? Did he allow his old self to go about the events from the beginning of his first movie, ending with him being trapped in the ice and then take over after that?

I would have to assume that past Captain America's timeline was never altered. So wouldnt they eventually find THAT Captain America in the ice again, and restart the entire cycle, and wouldnt that mean there are still 2 of the same Cap in the present, one old and one young?

Was he living in the past in an alternate timeline? And even so, wouldnt the original Steve Rogers still exist in any timeline?

Help me. This is blowing my mind!

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This is why I don't like time travel. It makes my brain hurt.

Was our cap living Steve's life secretly? Didn't seem like it. If he pretended to survive the crash, there would be no search party to find him. Unless he went to SHIELD of course and explained everything...

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True, there wouldnt be a search party, assuming he made his identity publicly known. That part makes sense, but then I wonder if he just ignored being a superhero for all those years. Seems unlikely that his conscience would allow that.

Also makes me wonder if they will dig his frozen self up again in a sequel eventually. His current friends surely know where his body is buried.

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The search party that discovered frozen-Steve found him by accident. They were responding to a Russian oil drilling team's discovery.

As for Cap living out his life with Peggy, there are two "official" stories:

(1) the directors say he created an alternate timeline and returned from there when he was old

(2) the writers say he grew old in the MCU timeline, and that they'd always intended him to be Peggy's mysterious husband

Either way, there are two Caps living in the same timeline.

If you accept the writers' version, then Endgame-Steve laid low and stayed out of history's way. It's a bit hard to believe he could do so when his own past self was frozen in the ice, Bucky was being brainwashed, the Starks were going to be assassinated, etc. etc. But he'd also have the benefit of knowing (A) everything will work out in the end and (B) any interference might make things worse.

If you accept the directors' version, Endgame-Steve could do anything, including rescuing Bucky, defrosting his own past self, and saving the Starks (which might prevent Tony from ever becoming Iron Man). But this would mean stealing Peggy, the love of Steve's life, away from the Steve Rogers of that alternate timeline

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"If you accept the writers' version, then Endgame-Steve laid low and stayed out of history's way. It's a bit hard to believe he could do so when his own past self was frozen in the ice, Bucky was being brainwashed, the Starks were going to be assassinated, etc. etc. But he'd also have the benefit of knowing (A) everything will work out in the end and (B) any interference might make things worse."

I get what the writers are saying, but how did 'Current Cap' know that reliving his life in secrecy would turn out to be the successful timeline?

Keep in mind, according to Dr. Strange that was one out of fourteen million chance.

Was he just hoping for the best? Because that seems to go against everything Captain America stands for, and completely against his nature. Its actually selfish.

And he somehow never encountered his past self, despite dating the same woman who apparently couldn't tell Captain America apart from her 'mysterious husband' as the writers called it...?

And was Cap prepared to risk the fate of the entire universe to get back with the woman he loved in the 1940's??

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So, in the first place, he didn't live it out in the current timeline. He created a second one by going back. That said, it doesn't matter, since he went back after Thanos had been defeated. So, if he is staying in the same timeline, Thanos is already dead, even though he's alive at the point in the past that he chooses to visit. Again, since him visiting that point alters the timeline, the argument is moot, but the 1 in 14,000,000 doesn't matter because they already won.

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Was he living in the past in an alternate timeline? And even so, wouldnt the original Steve Rogers still exist in any timeline?

^^^

This is the answer

BOTH the writers and directors confirmed it

every single thing that happened in the MCU stayed the same....

Rodgers went back in time, and lived in an alternate reality/timeline and had his life With Peggy and grew old....He then Jumped Back into the original timeline after Peggy died and was there as "Old man Rodgers" to pass the shield on to Sam and let everyone know hes ok and lived his great life


Apparently according to time travel and "Rules"...all of this actually does make sense if you were sit down and go through it...

for me, I just dont care...Every movie as "stretches" and things you have to "extend reality" to believe....I'm not going to spend 1 minute worrying about if it actually makes sense or not..

for me, The Last hour of EG is literally the best in possible could have been and I'm happy...Rodgers got his happy ending...for me it just doesnt bother if it actually makes sense or not(but again apparently it does)

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Yeah...

That's crappy writing.

And it's quite funny to see how the writers can provide logical explanations to prove the thing makes sense.

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That's crappy writing.

^^^

Or it could be excellent writing....



again time travel is one of those things that cant please everyone...

I can completely understand how what happens in Avengers could bother or please anyone...


It All comes down to the rules set.....and apparently(again The is way past my knowledge) but apparently those who understand the kind of time travel the writers were going for here, according to those understand it most....The events in Endgame actual makes sense and do follow the "Theoretical Rules"

so on one hand, Ya I can completely see how you could think it was crappy writing...Time Travel is IMPOSSIBLE to really nail in a movie, anyone can pick apart any time travel movie if they really want to you....

But on the other hand, it could be excellent writing seeing how The writer specifically went for a different time travel and different rule set here in Avengers, as long as The movie follows the Theoretical Rules that The Majority of Experts agree on....thats about the best you can possibly do...

for me, Time Travel movies are so ODD and so Impossible to truly Judge...I think its basically Just entirely your opinion and what you like....

but if you want to definitively Judge Endgame's writing as crappy....Thats your right...

for me I'm not a Theoretical physicist so I dont feel I'm qualified to definitively say its Great Or crappy .......


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Its crappy writing because there would be no way for Cap to "jump" back to this specific universe as old man Cap. The only way back was by using his suit that led to the platform. He never arrived on the platform. So we're left to fill in the blanks on how he got to the bench. Yet nothing makes sense... except for maybe he was here the whole time living a secret life with Peggy.

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Its crappy writing because there would be no way for Cap to "jump" back to this specific universe as old man Cap. The only way back was by using his suit that led to the platform. He never arrived on the platform. So we're left to fill in the blanks on how he got to the bench. Yet nothing makes sense... except for maybe he was here the whole time living a secret life with Peggy.

^^^

I'm perfectly fine with this ^ statement if Its Just your Opinion or If you are a Theoretical physicist and an expert in this area....

If your not a Theoretical physicist and If your stating It as a definitive fact that "Its crappy writing" then I just dont believe you have an leg to stand on...

as I've said, according to everything I've read from "experts"....There are dozens of articles and youtube videos from Theoretical physicists, That explain the type of Time Travel the Endgame writers were going for is different....and according to The Overwhelming Majority of the "Experts" who have the most knowledge/understanding of This Theoretical concept....They are in agreement that Endgame's time travel does make sense and follow the Theoretical rules...


again I'm not stating Its Crappy or Great writing, Time Travel is way above my understanding...but I can factual say, that at least among The people who understand this concept/subject most, Its a consensus, The writers got it right....

You do not have to like it, You are more than within your right to Hate or feel its Crappy writing, But honestly thats just your opinion....


That is unless you are a Theoretical physicist....If you are, I will respectfully agree that You are in a much better position to Judge if the Writing is in fact "crappy" and I will concede your stance carries much more weight than mine or most everyone else's, But I would add that even though you are a Theoretical physicist(If you are) and I now concede you do have Knowledge/Understanding to definitive state if Endgame's writing is "crappy", I would also add that Your conclusion that Endgame's writing is "crappy" would fall into a tiny almost non existent minority among your fellow companions in The Theoretical physicist field....

So, while your statement above and problems you have with the film are perfectly fine to question, Theres no way you can use it as definitive Proof that "Its crappy" writing, unless you are a Theoretical physicist

Its entirely possible that every single problem you have with the film and writing is in fact explainable, Its entire possible that every single thing that you dont think makes sense, In fact has been thought out and ran by The smartest possible Minds on The subject of time travel and do in fact Make sense...


I hope you understand what I'm saying....I'm only taking issue with your stance that you seem to be trying to definitively state as a fact "Endgame's writing is crappy"....When I believe at best that statement can only be "your opinion" and an opinion that you arent even close to being in position to give if your not a Theoretical physicist....

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I appreciate your input and I hope this doesn't come off as argumentative.....

I still don't get how Cap could choose which timeline to come back to, especially since he apparently lived out his entire life.

I want to be clear, this didnt make or break the movie for me. It was a cool moment at the end of a pretty good trilogy of Avengers movies. Though, I will say I liked Infinity Wars a lot more than Endgame.

Back to the point, it seems like a very, very, VERY random coincidence that old Steve Rogers ended up in the '1 out of 14 million' timeline.

The only possible explanation I can think of is that the timelines were dependent on the present. Meaning that when all the Avengers went back in time, it was in one of the 'failed' timelines. But when Cap went back by himself, it was in the 'successful timeline.'

But that still doesn't explain how he dealt with the duality of his existence. Unless he took over after his past self got trapped in the ice, he had to somehow outmaneuver his past self, which seems completely impossible.

My point is, no matter what timeline, out of the 14 million he went back to, his past self would still be there.

Furthermore, say Cap went back in the 'successful' timeline. He still would have had to go through all the same stuff the present Cap did to have it result in the same way...right??

And to reiterate, this wasn't a dealbreaker for me. I just want to know if anyone can explain it. The writer and director arguments dont seem to make sense at all, and actually contradict themselves.

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"I still don't get how Cap could choose which timeline to come back to, especially since he apparently lived out his entire life."

Correct. If Cap goes back in time, he's leaving this specific timeline. In order to get back to this specific timeline, he has to press the button on his suit that is designed to take him back to this specific timeline. If he looks for any other method to get back to the future, its going to be a future of his new timeline and not this original one.

"The only possible explanation I can think of is that the timelines were dependent on the present. Meaning that when all the Avengers went back in time, it was in one of the 'failed' timelines. But when Cap went back by himself, it was in the 'successful timeline.'"

Sort of. I believe the theory is that if you were to leave a timeline to go back in time, the one you arrive in is identical to the one you left, except for one difference which is that you are now in its past. So it would be you that is responsible for all the differences in that timeline. Assuming Cap plays it smart and remains hidden, it makes sense for his new timeline to remain similar enough to defeat Thanos.

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"Furthermore, say Cap went back in the 'successful' timeline. He still would have had to go through all the same stuff the present Cap did to have it result in the same way...right?? "...


ICE CAP LIVES THE MCU TIMELINE LIFE WHILE TIME CAP CHILLS OUT.

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It doesn't matter if I'm a theoretical physicist or not because there is no theoretical physicist vouching for the film's "accurate" use of time travel. According to every scientist I've heard from from Kaku to Tyson they brush it off as movie fluff.

Keep in mind I'm not criticizing Endgame for not going the route of Interstellar by getting physicists on board with its script. Its a CBM. It doesn't need it. But if you go by the rules they specifically set up, the movie is kinda/sorta suggesting old Cap has been in this timeline all along.

The reality is the writers and directors haven't agreed exactly how Cap got on the bench. They left it up for the audience to decide. I'm sure there's a way for physicists to come up with a way for Cap to be on that bench. And if so I'd be willing to put a lot of money on it being that old Cap was here the whole time.

The only problem I've seen with Cap being here the whole time is the part in Winter Soldier where Peggy talks about her husband. But at the same time she's on her death bed barely clinging to life.

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And how exactly did he jump back in his alternate reality without the device?

And wasn't that the reason of jumping back to return the stones so they DON'T create alternate realities?

How come he had the shield? Did he just stole it from the other Cap? Fucking up that alternate reality really good?

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Explanation: It does not make sense, no use thinking about it. Look at the explosions and try to enjoy this movie

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This part actually does make sense. When Steve was in 1970 he saw his own picture on top of Peggy's desk. If she had ever married someone else's picture should be there - unless of course she married him. I think later on it occurred to him that if he went back in time at some later point this could happen. So maybe that's what he does, and always did. Which means an older version of himself was living in that time period the day he was there watching through the window. While an even younger version was still trapped in the ice.

So after putting the stones back he returns to just after the war, tells Peggy everything (which she must never repeat to another soul), and the two of them marry. He takes on a different identity. As far as the world knows Peggy's husband is Steve something-else. Without his Captain America outfit no one recognizes him. He gets a job doing ... who knows what, while she eventually ends up running that facility where the Pym particles were. They let history play out the way it's supposed to and don't try changing anything. That's the price of their life together.

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Alright, thats a good explanation actually, so there always was an 'older' captain america dobbelganger during all the movies. Nice ending for him. ty

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Doesn't make sense at all. He had to return the stone right after he took it. He cannot make another jump further back in time because he needs the device that is in the future/present. And no, he cannot make the initial jump further into the past either.

And how did he get a new shield?

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Actually, if his presence in the past, his marriage to Peggy and the life they lived was always part of the original timeline he wouldn't be changing anything by going back. In fact it would be necessary to preserve the status quo.

Don't know how he got the shield. It was made of vibranium so perhaps the Wakadans repaired it for him during the months between the battle and the time jump, as a thank you.

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She would have a newer photo of him on the desk, not a 20 years old photo. That's a photo of someone you lost, not a photo of someone that you are married with and maybe even have kids. Nope, not plausible.

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Remember: she would have to conceal the fact that she was married to Steve Rogers at work, not display a current photo of him very much alive and unfrozen with their kids (assuming they had any). An old picture would raise no suspicion though. If she was married to someone else, his photo would be there instead.

The entire movie is implausible. But saying that Captain America always came back to marry his one true love works perfectly to resolve any time travel related, wouldn't-the-future-be-changed type issues. As long as he stays out of the way and doesn't interfere with world events the timeline remains consistent. He must not surface again until after his younger self embarks on that final trip into the past.

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There will be some of you out there who won't agree with me, but I think it is very simple. Steve went back in time to be with Peggy. When he found her, he explained how he was able to be there when he was lost in the Arctic. She was so happy to see him, that she agreed to keep his presence a secret.
They were married, and had a happy life together.
As to why Steve didn't get involved in the events that lead up to him becoming an Avenger and going off to help out. I think Steve knew that if he were to interfere with the events in any way, he could do irreparable damage to the events as they would play out, and possibly change the outcome of Endgame. He had to stay hidden or he might do more damage.

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HE LIVES WITH PEGGY WHILE ICE CAP IS CHILLING IN THE OCEAN.WHEN ICE CAP IS RESCUED,HE LIVES THE EXACT MCU TIMELINE LIFE WE SAW IN THE FLICKS.ALL THE WHILE CAP 2 HAS BEEN KEEPING PEGGY WARM.

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Seems about right. Major.

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That's pretty much what Markus & McFeely claim they intended all along.

I think it makes the most sense dramatically.

Having Steve in an alternate timeline, as the Russos tell us, would mean he's "stealing" that timeline's Peggy from that timeline's Steve.

Having Steve in the prime timeline means the frozen Steve can look forward to the exact same destiny that Endgame Steve is currently living out.

He's fulfilling the past, not changing the past, so he's not violating the time travel rules of this movie.

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That doesn't explain the photo or the new shield.

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The photo could be the only picture Peggy feels safe keeping on her desk. She can't let on that her actual husband is post-Endgame Steve, so she keeps a photo of pre-serum Steve. People will assume it's simply nostalgia

Cap had 80 years to get a new shield somewhere

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would be easier to NOT have a picture.

Somewhere?

Yeah, i think i saw a couple at walmart the other day. Right.

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Peggy was the director of SHIELD - she could’ve gotten him a replacement

Or Steve went to Walmart’s Wakanda store, after T’Chala opened the borders

Maybe got himself a heart-shaped latte at Starbucks Wakanda while he’s at it

He’s alive for at least five years after Wakanda went public after all

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Here's the simple answer:

Captain America was supposed to return the Infinity Stones, then return to 2023. Instead, he went back to 1945. While we are not explicitly told what he did, I think we can safely assume the following:

1. After reuniting with Peggy, he went to the U.S.S.R. and rescued Bucky in 1945, so he never became the brain-damaged Winter Soldier.

2. He kept on being Captain America, guiding the U.S. through the cold war, and using his knowledge of future events as needed in an attempt to create a better future for the country and the world.

3. He took the steps necessary to prevent Thanos' snap from occurring in his timeline. Keep in mind that Dr. Strange only saw 1 victorious outcome in the 14 million plus he visited, but we saw two in Endgame: the reversal of the snap in the main timeline, as well as the existence of a divergent timeline without Thanos and his army, which came to the main timeline and died. What this suggests is that Dr. Strange played out 14 million strategies in our timeline to find one that worked. That doesn't mean 14 million universes exist, or that he could visit them, or that Thanos wins in all the rest. It means he played through the scenario in the main timeline 14 million times to find a winning strategy. That same strategy could be employed in every timeline to ensure Thanos loses 100% of the time. It ALSO means that were he able to go back to 1945 and tell Captain America the future, there might be millions of possible strategies that will work, as opposed to waiting until Thanos is approaching Titan with 4 Infinity Stones.

4. What did he do about the frozen version of himself in the new timeline? That is open to speculation. We know that after Peggy died, he came back to the main timeline and he had a shield with him, so unless he had a new one made he must have retrieved it, suggesting he also retrieved the frozen Steve Rogers of that timeline, but we don't know.

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I'm gonna go with the theory that when he went back in the past he still lived out the original timeline. My theory is that he probably retired sometime after civil war and the shield he gave Sam was from Civil war because it was still in tact.

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