Wouldn't it Be Awkward to Have Two Captain Americas... (SPoiLeRS) - Avengers: Endgame (2019) Discussion

[–] UncleRuckis (2548) 5 years ago

Good question. Also does he save Buckey and root out Hydra? No way Steve will just play house with Peggy while Hydra murders people for the next 70 years. This has the makings of an entirely different movie.

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[–] FootOfDavros (6691) 5 years ago

If you accept the alternate universe proposition then why not just play house?

There could effectively be an infinite number of parallel universes so why give two hoots as to how the lifes of anyone plays out in this particular branch? Just dance away with Peggy for 50 years or whatever and ignore whatever else is going on...

Oh, but only don't have any kids or make any lasting connections with any other single human being in this particular universe because you'll be jumping back out of it - once you've played out your entire life - so you can hand your shield over to some dude you knew from 50 years ago just because that would make sense...

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[–] UncleRuckis (2548) 5 years ago

"There could effectively be an infinite number of parallel universes so why give two hoots as to how the lifes of anyone plays out in this particular branch"

That makes complete sense if were talking about an episode of Rick and Morty, but this is Captain America. And while I wouldn't expect him to hop from universe to universe beating up bad guys, he sure as hell isn't going to kick back and sip a martini knowing full well that Hydra will be killing Howard, JFK, and god knows how many others.

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[–] Buttholio (198) 5 years ago

Maybe after the Peggy of the alternate timeline died and Cap knew he was near death he just wanted to travel back to the original timeline to see all the people he knew and cared about in that timeline (presumably not just Sam, though we only saw the passing of the shield) ... Or one could assume he had two charges of Pym particles and went back to his new adopted timeline to die among his family and friends there and be buried with Peggy.

Also Sam wasn't just "some dude he knew 50 years ago", they were comrades in arms, fellow soldiers for years, and the same goes for Bucky and the other Avengers, which would be a big deal to Cap so it makes sense he'd want to go back and see them all one last time. Also, he left his original timeline without a Captain America to defend it, which would probably prey on his mind, so passing on the shield to a worthy successor in the original timeline would be important to him.

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[–] ATG6 (3000) 5 years ago

That's not how Steve Rogers rolls.

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[–] FootOfDavros (6691) 5 years ago

It is in this film, he even said it - he was off having a little of that good life...

It's not Back to the Future, his original timeline still exists, so he doesn't have fix anything or worry about any alternate universe versions of anybody. And why should he? The universe he's in only exists because of him so basically he can treat it like an souped up holideck until he bails back to his own universe... That is if you go with the Director's explanation.

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[–] UncleRuckis (2548) 5 years ago

Were talking about a man who wasn't willing to kill a robot man(and vision was cool with it) to save half the lives in the universe because "we don't trade lives". There is no way in hell, after 10 years of the man being as honorable as they come, that he would just say fuck em and let innocent people die! Regardless of the circumstances.

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[–] h-oates (172) 5 years ago

LMAO. They're literally the same person. It's highly implied that the timeline Steve lives out a happy life with Peggy is in fact the original, main timeline. If Steve rescued his past self in the ice (or prevented the expedition) he would create a massive paradox. So no, this isn't an issue at all. Steve just has to live a quiet life with Peggy, doing his utmost to stay off the grid and everything would be fine.

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[–] Buttholio (198) 5 years ago

Nah, you're thinking in "Back to the Future" terms. The Russos confirmed in an interview that when Cap decided to stay with Peggy it started an alternate timeline where Cap and Peggy lived their life together, and presumably had their own adventures, and then when he was old Cap used the Pym-tech of that alternate timeline to travel back to the original timeline so he could give the shield to Sam. You don't have to worry about "time paradoxes" in a branching-multiverse model like that. Basically Cap would be free to clean up his new timeline any way he sees fit with the knowledge of his future perspective. So Cap doesn't have to "hide out" to avoid "changing the future" or anything like that.

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[–] h-oates (172) 5 years ago

Look, I'm just speaking from a personal standpoint here. I'm sure within the canon that's the answer, but if you think about it hard it makes zero sense. If their intention was for Cap to have stayed with Peggy in an alternate timeline, then he would have appeared on the platform as an old man. The fact he's sat on that bench indicates he just allowed himself to grow old in the timeline he returned to. And that's what I go by. I go by the finished film. The Russo's are trying to dig themselves out of a plothole they created. It would literally have taken a few words of dialogue to say that he'd returned from an alternate timeline. As it is, it seems to be indicated that this change was the only one 'meant' to happen, so by some miracle Cap didn't create an alternate timeline when he went back to Peggy, he just merged with the original one. That way, the change has more impact on the audience, so I get why they did it. I just wish they'd have cleaned it up and committed to an answer within the movie itself.

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[–] UncleRuckis (2548) 5 years ago

I don't think the traveler has to return to the specific platform he departed from. I mean clearly, they can punch any time, date, and coordinates and go straight there without needing a landing pad. They did this everytime they jumped to the past. There's no reason they shouldn't be able to do that when returning home.

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[–] h-oates (172) 5 years ago

I'm not sure that platform works the same way, though. Tony's was utterly destroyed. Falcon seemed pretty freaked out when Steve didn't appear, he never thought to look around for him. Also, I think when returning to point of departure you had to arrive on the platform. Everyone did before, anyway, after they got all the stones.

But I'm not saying that what you're saying doesn't make sense. I'm just saying that we have to fill in these small gaps ourselves because the film makes it ambiguous. I mean, why else am I seeing this plothole being posted everywhere? Because it's the one part of the film that left people confused. If the Russo's had wanted it cleaned up nicely they would have filmed it that way. They would have had Steve at least wearing the suit he left in, for example. Hinting that he'd kept it for the return journey across timelines.

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[–] gantz8596 (203) 5 years ago

This is true when traveling back in time, they can choose a time and a place. But because they make a different timeline every time they jump back in time, when they try to jump back to the future they will be jumping forward to the current timeline future, not their main timeline.

The movie definitely makes it like the machine is a tether that connects with the bracelets that the time traveling Avengers wear. So even if they are in different timelines, they can always return to their main timeline through the machine. Which is why when Thanos copy the technology, he can only come to the main timeline through the Machine.

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[–] ATG6 (3000) 5 years ago

there's no paradox created -- he already fought himself in one timeline

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[–] ultravioletx (10212) 5 years ago

Time traveler Cap allows frozen Cap to stay frozen because time traveler Cap knows that frozen Cap goes on to help defeat Thanos. No matter what problems arise in this universe while time traveler Cap is spending his days with Peggy he knows it won't be as bad as the threat of Thanos.

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[–] Buttholio (198) 5 years ago

Not necessarily, since a new timeline has been created, and now things could play out in any number of ways. This is made explicit in the discussion with the Ancient One... Also new alternate timelines have been created, one where Loki escaped with the cube, one where Thanos and his minions jumped to a future timeline where they got destroyed (good deal for that timeline!) and so on.

When Cap ran into his past self, he didn't hesitate to tell him about the truth about Bucky and Hydra, knowing full well his past self would feel compelled to investigate it. True, he also wanted to distract him so he could knock him out, but the point is he had no qualms about passing on information he knew would seriously alter the course of events. The way time travel works in the movie you don't have to worry about "altering the course of events" the way you would in a BttF scenario.

If he didn't hesitate to give his past self timeline-altering information, why would he hesitate to right wrongs he knows exist from his future knowledge? He would know about the Hydra threat so maybe he and Peggy would be able to create a SHIELD free from the Hydra taint. He would be looking to find and save Bucky. Maybe Cap would take charge of the "Avengers project" for that timeline and get it started much earlier - maybe he'd be the one to recruit Nick Fury this time! Because if you think about it he'd have to know his new timeline would have its own Thanos and he would want to start preparing for that as soon as possible, maybe by preemptively finding Infinty Stones...

But meanwhile, what about that other Steve Rogers, frozen in the ice...? There would be no good reason to leave him frozen and surely Steve would want to help his past self, so he would find him and thaw him out. Then there arises that awkward situation with Peggy. I suppose future Steve could leave past Steve "on ice" while he grows old with Peggy, then thaw him out and let him have Sharon Carter as a consolation prize! LOL

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[–] ultravioletx (10212) 5 years ago

"Not necessarily, since a new timeline has been created"

If the MCU timeline that we've been watching this whole time could not possibly account for a secondary Cap to age along with Peggy Carter then time traveler Cap definitely went into an alternate timeline.

If the MCU timeline we've been watching this whole time can account for a secondary Cap living alongside Peggy Carter this whole time then time traveler Cap could hypothetically travel back in time to the past of this very timeline.

Both of those scenarios work because both of those scenarios avoid the continuum paradox.

And the answers to your questions of why Cap would not do all that stuff after traveling back in time is because he already knows he doesn't need to. He has information from the future. He knows that all he has to do is live a quiet life with Peggy Carter and all will be well.

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[–] UncleRuckis (2548) 5 years ago

"And the answers to your questions of why Cap would not do all that stuff after traveling back in time is because he already knows he doesn't need to. He has information from the future. He knows that all he has to do is live a quiet life with Peggy Carter and all will be well. "

No. He only knows that all was well in the original timeline that he lived through. The moment he went back to the 40's, he started a new branch which will deviate a lot from the original timeline. Even if he only takes Peggy and goes to live a quiet life, that would be more than enough to Butterfly effect the hell out of the timeline, especially since Peggy was a founding member of shield and was likely involved in many key moments.

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[–] ultravioletx (10212) 5 years ago

"The moment he went back to the 40's, he started a new branch"

I understand that. It seems you've missed out on the conversation. It's only a new branch if something new happened. What I'm saying is it works either way. If there was no second Cap in the MCU then its a new branch. If he was simply off screen never shown to us (because they hadn't thought of it yet) then there doesn't need to be a new branch.

There's no rule that there absolutely has to be a new universe if you travel back in time. There only has to be one if something different happened. With Cap's life with Peggy we simply don't know if it happened in the main MCU timeline or not. Because throughout this whole time she was too secret about who her lover was.

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[–] UncleRuckis (2548) 5 years ago

The Hulk flat out describes why your wrong. He straight up says, if you travel into the past, that past is now your future.

You can't backdoor your way into some pre-destination paradox. The moment you step into the past even for a milisecond, it's a new branch. Your very presence there is a change.

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[–] ultravioletx (10212) 5 years ago

"The moment you step into the past even for a milisecond, it's a new branch."

If the timeline you left had you arriving from the future in its past then it doesn't have to be a new branch. All Banner is talking about is doing something different that hadn't been done in your original timeline. What the writers of Endgame is saying is that there was no change.

Think of it this way. Envision the movie of Cap's new life after traveling back in time. Let's assume he stays there until old age. In this long life he is living with Peggy what is stopping the Avengers from forming and defeating Thanos and reversing the snap? Nothing. Assuming Cap played it cool everything in that universe could have unfolded just how we saw it. And then as he reaches old age he decides to go to the park bench right after his younger self disappears. Imagine that whole new life Cap lived is the MCU we've been watching this whole time.

You already acknowledge that universe can exist. You are calling it an alternate. I'm merely suggesting it could be the main one.

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[–] Buttholio (198) 5 years ago

The whole idea of Cap "hiding out and letting events play out as they did before" is based on a Back to the Future idea of time travel, which this movie has specifically repudiated. According the the rules the movie has set up, ANY time you alter events in the past, it creates an alternate timeline. There's no reason it would be any different when Steve decides to stay in the past with Peggy. He would obviously understand this, being a seasoned time traveler at this point... There would be no guarantee ANYTHING would play out "as it did before" so basically it would be on Cap to try to ensure the best possible outcome for his new timeline. Cap being Cap, could he really be happy just "playing house" with Peggy, knowing that Bucky is being tortured somewhere and turned into a murderous assassin, Hydra is infesting society and corrupting SHIELD, the threat of Thanos is developing somewhere out in space... And with NO reason to assume, given this movie's rules of time travel, that things would "play out as they did before."

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[–] gantz8596 (203) 5 years ago

It's amazing how many people seem to think that Steve (if he lives his old age in the main timeline, which of course is against all the explanation that Tony and Bruce gave) is this cold-blooded duty-bound soldier that would sacrifice not just many innocent lives throughout history (which include JFK and 9/11) but also those that are close to him, like Bucky being a mind-controlled slave assassin, Tony Stark's parents, and the whole Shield is Hydra thing. Magnificent how people would fool themselves.

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[–] Buttholio (198) 5 years ago

... not to mention trying to prevent Thanos from getting the Stones so the Snap never happens, Black Widow doesn't die, Tony doesn't die... Steve would have a "Groundhog Day"-like ability to try to engineer the best possible outcome for his new timeline.

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[–] h-oates (172) 5 years ago

This is all well and good to speculate, but we have to respect the film itself. The completed film tells us (through strong implication) that Steve married Peggy and lived out a quiet life with her ("it was beautiful"). It also implies that because he didn't return to the platform, through the machine and was not wearing the suit he left in, that this timeline he grew old in with Peggy was the main, current one. That is what the finished film implies. Whether or not you disagree with the Russo's course of action in this matter of Steve's character, this is what happens. These things aren't just implied they're practically spelt out.

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[–] Buttholio (198) 5 years ago

I think it is fair to say the film leave it open to interpretation. An old Steve looking back on a life with Peggy and saying "It was beautiful..." does not preclude it was also full of activity, and the stuff about the platform and what Steve was wearing is really just a quibble. The main point is BY THE TIME TRAVEL LOGIC THE MOVIE HAS SET UP, Cap HAD to have created an alternate timeline when he went back. The idea of him living out a "secret" life in the "main" timeline flies in the face of everything established about time travel in the rest of the movie.

The Russos have confirmed that this was their intention, and it's pretty obvious why they didn't try to shoehorn in some kind of explanation in that last scene with Cap since it just would have felt contrived and detracted from the emotional impact of the scene. There is certainly nothing in the film as it is that contradicts the idea that Cap at the end has traveled from an alternate timeline.

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[–] UncleRuckis (2548) 5 years ago

"The idea of him living out a "secret" life in the "main" timeline flies in the face of everything established about time travel in the rest of the movie."

Not just this movie. It would fly in the face of Winter Soldier, Civil War, and that Agent Carter show assuming it was cannon.

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[–] ExTechOp (2738) 5 years ago

I think both h-oates & Buttholio are right in a sense

Most importantly, that it's left (deliberately) open to interpretation

If the Russo brothers wanted the explanation to be cemented into the canon, they could've added a single line about "living a different life in a different reality" or somesuch. They didn't.

Meanwhile Markus & McFeely kept Peggy's husband literally out of the picture from the get-go. They were constructing this entire multi-movie storyline around the notion that a time-traveling Steve was the "hidden husband" all along.

So, personally, I'd have to follow the writers on this one. My biggest issue with "alternative timeline Steve" is that he'd be displacing Peggy's real husband and wiping out her family in that timeline. True, it's "alternative Peggy," but if he can be truly love "alternative Peggy," then he'd have to be disinclined to erase her alternative family.

Meanwhile, Steve growing old, in secret, in the MCU's main timeline brings a sense of closure to his story. And as I and other posters have noted previously, Endgame Steve has the wisdom to know NOT to interfere with the events to come. He "can't change his own past" after all.

I'll admit, though, that I'm a fan of the Novikov self-consistency principle. Put in cinematic terms, time travelers can't change the past, because ALL of time is "the past." Any attempt to change history inevitably winds up causing history.

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[–] ExTechOp (2738) 5 years ago

Something else occurred to me based on Buttholio's comments:

Alternate timeline Steve would be stealing Peggy from her destined husband AND the Steve of that timeline.

And again, he'd be preventing her from having the kids she'd originally had.

That's all very un-Steve.

I gotta go with the writers on this one. Steve was always Peggy's secret husband. After 12 years as an Avenger, he knew enough not to mess with history.

Because the willpower it'd take to resist his own natural desire to "make things right" in the here and now ... THAT's very Steve.

I also like to think he lived a quiet family life in honor of Howard and Tony Stark. He did what Tony told him he should do, and what Tony himself was not allowed to do.

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[–] ultravioletx (10212) 5 years ago

"The whole idea of Cap "hiding out and letting events play out as they did before" is based on a Back to the Future idea of time travel"

It isn't though. Back To The Future suffers from the continuum paradox which is alluded to in the movie. Doc Brown mentioned the paradox but the movie didn't stay true to it. Marty's photo of himself and his family disappearing can't possibly happen because it is from a separate universe where something different supposedly occurred. What Endgame is suggesting is that Cap traveled to the past of the same universe because the same thing had occurred.

Think of it this way. Imagine if in Captain America: The First Avenger right after Cap lands in the ice there's a scene of a ten-year old Cap arriving from the future and hugging Peggy. None of that kind of foreshadowing took place in Back to the Future but the writers of Endgame are suggesting that is similar to what happened. The MCU never showed a scenario where a second Cap could not have been living in the universe. But Back To The Future did show a scenario where Marty and his siblings did no longer exist in the universe but then they were back again.

Also we have no idea what time traveler Cap's life is like. You may consider it a cop out that he retired after only ten years of service as an Avenger. But keep in mind that the Avengers are equipped with time travel and any time they need help with a future problem all they have to do is go back in time and snag Cap from the past and have him help with their mission. Then return him to the past. No matter how you slice it it still works out.

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[–] UncleRuckis (2548) 5 years ago

"The MCU never showed a scenario where a second Cap could not have been living in the universe."

Yes they absolutely have. Assuming that the woman old man Cap was married to was peggy, there is no way this occurred in the main timeline. We know Peggy was married to some other guy(Winter soldier), we know she was always sad about Steve dying(from that interview), and we know she was devastated for Steve to have missed out on his entire life when he sat by her bedside.

So unless she has been lying for 70 years and decided to really ham it up for young steve and managed to hide him from even her own family(Sharon would have met him), there is no way that Cap has been her husband this entire time.

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[–] ultravioletx (10212) 5 years ago

The problem is this is all based on assumption and not what any of us know to be true. Keep in mind I'm not saying for sure Cap traveled to this timeline. I'm merely explaining that it could work.

We never saw the other guy or learned of his children. Keep in mind both Winter Soldier and Endgame are written by Markus and Mcfeely. And they are saying Cap is the man she is talking about. The directors aren't saying it as staunchly. They are saying its probably a separate universe but overall leaving it up to speculation and possibly for future movies to resolve.

Personally speaking I see nothing wrong with Peggy being married to Steve this whole time. The only qualifier I have is that the universe absolutely needs to account for it. Thats the one rule it cannot break because otherwise it becomes a separate universe. Since she was so secretive about who her husband was it kinda looks like they were planning this before Endgame.

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[–] ATG6 (3000) 5 years ago

All he really has to do to stop Thanos is just keep the idiot Starlord away from him.

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[–] movienchill31 (222) 5 years ago

OG Cap is still frozen on ice. Him going back in time to live out his life has nothing to do with Frozen Cap. Frozen Cap is still in ice waiting to be found and thawed out. When Cap goes back into time, he creates another timeline/dimension in which he lives out his life with Peggy and probably retires after Civil War. He then comes back to the OG timeline to give his shield to Sam.

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[–] UncleRuckis (2548) 5 years ago

But when he goes back, there are two Caps in that new timeline he just created. One dancing with Peggy and one frozen. Our point is if Cap goes back, he either
A) Changes the timeline by, marrying Peggy, saving Buckey, stopping Hydra, and eventually thawing himself(since nobody would be okay with leaving him on ice). Awkward situation achieved.
Or
B) Still changes the timeline by marrying Peggy, but decides to completely ignore everything else he knows will happen throughout history(something completely out of character for him).

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[–] movienchill31 (222) 5 years ago

Yes there's two Caps. And more than likely it's A. He marries Peggy, saves Buckey, stops Hydra and thaws himself out. I'm assuming he probably retires after Civil War because he has to meet Sam in order to give him in the shield in the future.

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[–] Buttholio (198) 5 years ago

So even if he does everything the best he can, rooting out Hydra and all that, he still ends up stealing Peggy from the original Steve Rogers of that timeline, which seems like kind of a dick move.

Maybe the original Steve Rogers from that timeline will go on to eventually go back to an older timeline and steal the Peggy from that timeline's Steve Rogers... Leading to an endless quantum-wave of Steve-stealing-Peggys through the multiverse... So in the end all the Steves end up with Peggys, but only by stealing them from the Steve from one adjacent timeline over! Happy ending, right?

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[–] ghostrider38 (1034) 5 years ago

I think directors and the writers said something about the 2 Captain Americas.

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[–] ExTechOp (2738) 5 years ago

One thing the directors and writers have to agree on is that there are two Caps wherever Endgame Cap ends up

Either he's in an alternate reality, where he's free to rewrite history as he pleases: rescue Bucky, thaw out his younger self, expose Hydra in SHIELD, etc.

Or he's in the main MCU reality, laying low and allowing things to play out the way they always have. In which case, the younger Cap gets thawed out when Endgame Cap is physically 100 years old (but chronologically closer to 170), and possibly unrecognizable as Peggy's low-profile husband.

BTW, I think Buttholio brings up an EXCELLENT point: if Steve takes over an alternate timeline, he's stealing Peggy from the husband she's destined to have and preemptively aborting their children to boot. Very not-cool and VERY not-Steve.

Whereas if Steve was ALWAYS Peggy's mysterious husband, laying low is EXACTLY what he'd do. He knows things will work out without his interference. He knows interfering may screw things up worse, and according to Banner may not even be possible (i.e., if he tries, he'll fail). It'd take monumental willpower to remains hands-off, but as long as it's "the right thing to do," it's consistent with his character.

So I've come around to Markus & McFeely's POV: Steve was always Peggy's husband.

It also explains why he didn't tell Sam about her - it'd just raise difficult questions with impossible answers.

Of course there's a third alternative: he went back, had that dance with Peggy, then ditched her because really how well did they know each other in a civilian/domestic context? But that's unsatisfying not to mention boring.

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[–] ghostrider38 (1034) 5 years ago

the Russos are saying old Steve came from an alternate timeline

But Markus & McFeely (the writers) are saying he's been in the same timeline all along.

I'm so confused. I don't know who's right? and who's wrong?

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[–] UncleRuckis (2548) 5 years ago

The idea that Steve has been Peggys husband this entire time is completely obliterated by the Agent Carter TV show, which is still cannon. That show was set years after the war and starred a Peggy who still clearly missed Steve.

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[–] ExTechOp (2738) 5 years ago

Not necessarily - “Agent Carter” was cancelled, so Steve could have come to her after the show’s time frame

Also, because of the TV boss’s friction with Disney, MCU’s TV shows aren’t synced up with the movies any longer. Which kinda sucks.

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