Huge Plot Hole! - Avengers: Endgame (2019) Discussion

[–] Aphrodite (110) 5 years ago

Re-watch Thanos’ first snap. You can see that the gauntlet and his arm and part of his neck are burned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXavNm6y8OE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeuDcriBAZ8

I don’t know about the comics, as I’ve never read them. But in the movies, they showed that it did harm the user if used. Also, Tony was a mere mortal man, not a superhuman being, which is why he couldn’t take the power like Thanos or Bruce did. Thanos looked even worse because he used it twice.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

There was no extreme damage as seen with other characters.

reply

[–] Aphrodite (110) 5 years ago

Maybe it wasn’t as noticeable on Thanos, but there was still damage, you can even see the burns on his neck when he turns his head after he does the snap.

Thanos was a Titan, a superior alien race. And we could see how powerful he was when he kicked Hulk’s ass. It says this on the Marvel Wiki:

Titans are much larger than humans, and their physical constitution is strong enough to wield the Infinity Stones without strain and easily overpower and severely injure beings as strong as Vision, Hulk, and Thor, as displayed by Thanos. Titans, despite their large size, possess incredible superhuman speed and reflexes that allows them to easily outmaneuver and overwhelm not only other beings of similar sizes, such as Hulk but also even smaller and highly agile individuals as well, such as Loki, Drax the Destroyer, Gamora, and Iron Man in his Mark L Armor. They are also able to react swiftly to high-speed projectiles.

They are invulnerable to many forms of damage, as even Gamora has stated that killing Thanos may not be possible, and the only known weapon with the power to kill Thanos was Stormbreaker, the most powerful weapon forged from Uru, and only if the axe was powered to the maximum and the attack was lethal.

Hulk was affected by gamma rays, and we’ve scene how much damage he can take and survive. So he just got a burned arm but he’s otherwise fine.

But Tony is just a human. He’s a genius, but not superhuman. That’s why he couldn’t take the power from the stones. As we saw in Guardians of the Galaxy, the Power stone nearly killed Peter, until the other Guardians shared the burden of the stone. That one girl who tried to grab the power stone on that one planet got not got killed, but caused a huge explosion. You can’t just hold the stones on their own, which is why the gauntlet is needed. But the power is possesses can harm you. And they’ve shown that in the movies.

reply

[–] BillySlater (4093) 5 years ago

"Titans, despite their large size, possess incredible superhuman speed and reflexes that allows them to easily outmaneuver and overwhelm not only other beings of similar sizes".

This piece of info seems like total bs. Thanos looks sluggish and labored in all of his movements even when wielding the infinity stones, not someone with "superhuman speed and reflexes".

reply

[–] Aphrodite (110) 5 years ago

Yeah, it’s on the Marvel wiki. Not sure if they got that info from the comics, but Thanos is the only living Titan. Or well...was. He didn’t seem all that speedy.

But he is the only one who could wield the gauntlet and stones with not as much damage as anyone else. He got burned a bit after using it once, but didn’t really get badly damaged until he destroyed the stones.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

It's still a plot hole as the gauntlet gives the person control over reality, so getting burned/killed wouldn't happen unless you wanted it to

reply

[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

Ok, you got this! It's a giant plot hole.

reply

[–] presldentackbar (164) 5 years ago

Nailed it!

reply

[–] FilmBuff (6666) 5 years ago

It isn't a plot hole. It's a case of you not paying attention. All of this was clearly explained in the films.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

It is a giant plot hole to have an object that gives you control of reality and kills/harms you because that mean you do not have control of things.

So, it's a plot hole because the glove in the movie works against its own logic.

reply

[–] Goliard (1413) 5 years ago

Ehh. I felt the same way, but it's easily addressed: Each of the stones works differently, with different effects on the user. Quill wasn't destroyed because he's only half human, Plus he had help from the other Guardians. Strange wasn't destroyed because. . .Magic! Vision wasn't destroyed because he's not human. Etc, etc.

By the wonky comic-book laws of the movie, when you put them all together, you get a new construct that creates resonance among all the stones, with its own effects, and own usage laws. So, simplest explanation: The gauntlet allows you to affect any aspect of reality EXCEPT for its effect on You. I actually don't have a problem with that; there are Much Bigger logic bombs in the movie. . .

reply

[–] FilmBuff (6666) 5 years ago

I don't think you understand the meaning of "plot hole."

The Infinity Stones are the most powerful artifacts in the universe. Just because Thanos, or Tony Stark, has a gauntlet built to harness their power doesn't automatically mean doing so won't affect the being wielding them.

It has been made clear many times throughout the MCU films that even touching an Infinity Stone can be lethal to a less powerful being, like a human. Even Thanos, who is clearly the strongest being that's been portrayed in the MCU thus far, was severely injured when performing the snap.

reply

[–] galahadfairlight (414) 5 years ago

Incorrect.

For starters ignore the comics, the MCU goes its own way.

Secondly, Thanos WAS injured when he did the snap.

When he destroyed the stones, he was further injured.

Hulk was injured indoing the snap and Tony simply is not physically as strong as Hulk which is why he died.

Within the MCU, its all entirely consistent.

Remember when the Guardians tried to wield one of the stones, it was only because Peter was half Celestial and shared the power with the other Guardians which is why they didnt die, but they got injured.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

Yes but when the stones come together the user is in charge of all reality.

So, the function of the glove makes no sense and is a plot hole designed to finish the story, for its own sake, which is a definition of a plot hole.

According to the logic of the glove, if you used it, felt it burning you, and thought "I want to use this thing, stop the burning" it would stop and your body would be strong enough to use it.

The comics handled the issue well and there was no need to have the glove impossible to use.

reply

[–] galahadfairlight (414) 5 years ago

You still don't get it. The MCU doesn't follow the comics.

The problem with your perception, is that the stones can be used over and over and over and over and over again.

The MCU version has decided that they are too dangerous to be used all together over and over. They've given them a specific period of use, otherwise, we just get what you present, which is the stones being used over and over and over and over.

The movies have a specific arc, a saga, comics however, will do whatever is needed to reignite interest in a flagging comic book series, hence why so many characters that die, keep coming back to life!

Reality is altered just by the reality stone, the MCU is saying "using all the stones at the same time is dangerous", and you're going to have to accept that, because thats exactly what they presented.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

You don't understand what a plot hole is.

"In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot.[1] Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events,[2] and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. The term is more loosely also applied to "loose ends" in a plot – side-lined story elements that remain unresolved by the end of the plot."

The comics didn't have this problem.

In the comics Thanos uses the glove and then finds he's tired of it because he got what he wanted, the struggle was over, then it was boring to have no struggle. That's a good philosophical point about power, wanting control, and just having a mission in life. Lots of athletes will suffer depression, for instance, after completing an event. That was Thanos.

In the movies, the glove is a plot hole, because the glove hurting people is a contradiction to what the thing is supposed to do. It's as simple as that.

So, instead of being part of the philosophy of the story, as in the comics, it become a Plot Device, to end the story. Which is odd since the comics had a better ending.

From Wiki

"A plot device, or plot mechanism,[citation needed] is any technique in a narrative used to move the plot forward.[1] A contrived or arbitrary plot device may annoy or confuse the reader, causing a loss of the suspension of disbelief. However a well-crafted plot device, or one that emerges naturally from the setting or characters of the story, may be entirely accepted, or may even be unnoticed by the audience."

reply

[–] galahadfairlight (414) 5 years ago

I do know what a plot hole is, and cutting and pasting wikipedia does nothing to help you here.

You're STILL conflating what happens in the comics. I think what your problem is, is you simply prefer the comic solution over the MCU one, which is fine in itself, but doesn't make the MCU version a pissing plot hole.

The MCU has set the rules of what happens with the Infinity Stones when all are brought together, NOT the comics.

Until you can let the comics go, you're still going to be stuck on this hook.

reply

[–] FilmBuff (6666) 5 years ago

What you are describing has nothing to do with a plot hole.

You are saying that you don't like the way the gauntlet works. That's a personal preference. A plot hole is when some aspect of the plot is logically flawed. If Thanos used the Time Stone to go back in time, then later we are told that the Time Stone can only move forward in time, that would be a plot hole. If you think time travel is a dumb thing in a movie, that isn't a plot hole, it's your preference.

The MCU set very clear rules regarding the Infinity Stones. They are the most powerful artifacts in the universe. Attempting to hold, or use, even one of them is enough to kill a being who is not incredibly powerful.

While a gauntlet exists that allows a being to use them, that gauntlet doesn't offer protection to the user. And it's not as simple as "using the stones to give me the power to use the stones." In fact, that WOULD be a plot hole, because it's circular reasoning.

A human being doesn't have the strength to withstand the effects of using the Infinity Stones to perform something as major as a snap.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

It was never said that the gauntlet was unusable by a human. Hawkeye easily holds the soul stone.

So, what you're saying is wrong.

The glove allows the wearer to control reality. If that's the case it wouldn't kill you unless you wanted to die.

There's many plot holes in this film that are ridiculous. For instance, to get the soul stone you must kill the one you love the most. In this two people try to commit suicide to do it and one does. So, no one would get the stone via suicide.

I think it's crazy that we the audience know these things and people in charge of a movie worth over a 100 million forget. I can't understand it.

Anyway, the glove is reduced to a cheap plot device here. In the comics is wasn't. So, a comic book story was more advanced than this expensive film.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

This is endgame:

"Many stories, especially in the fantasy genre, feature an object or objects with some great power. Often what drives the plot is the hero's need to find the object and use it for good, before the villain can use it for evil, or if the object has been broken by the villains, to retrieve each piece that must be gathered from each antagonist to restore it, or, if the object itself is evil, to destroy it. In some cases destroying the object will lead to the destruction of the villain."

The comic didn't use a plot device but used Thanos' personality as the ending, which is a real story.

reply

[–] wickerman1271 (940) 5 years ago

"using all the stones at the same time is too dangerous" is referring to them turning half universe into dust , not for them to do damage to its user , the fact that it killed Tony was just plot device they used because RDJ time with Marvel came to an end , that's just lazy writing

reply

[–] galahadfairlight (414) 5 years ago

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Thanos was injured the first time he snapped, Thanos is magnitudes much stronger than Tony Stark.
Thanos was seriously injured the second time he used the gauntlet, Thanos is STILL magnitudes stronger than Tony Stark.

Banner was seriously injured the first time he snapped, Banner/Hulk is not as strong as Thanos.

You can suggest that it was lazy writing to kill off Tony Stark, but we know thats not true, because Chris Evans is also no longer in the MCU and they didn't kill him off.

The MCU has clearly shown that using all the stones at the same time is dangerous to the one wielding the stones, they've been UTTERLY consistent in that since the very first time it was used and every time after that.

You're wrong.

reply

[–] wickerman1271 (940) 5 years ago

They built that because they already knew for a few years that this would be the last RDJ movie , as the Russos said this two movies have been in work for 3 years they also said that the first thing they wrote was the ending , 3 years ago they already knew Tony was going to die.

reply

[–] NorrinRad (5008) 5 years ago

The Russos also said that they like "writing themselves into a corner" but that doesn't imply they violated their own rules in using the Infinity Stones just to meet an end that they decided was the arc of the story and the final moment for the character. There are several ways that Tony's death could have been achieved. The story was explored and told in such that totally disregarded the future post the death of the character.

reply

[–] galahadfairlight (414) 5 years ago

I still don't see what the issue is.

You would be saying the exact same thing if it was Cap instead of Tony, but what you don't seem to accept is both Cap and Tony had to have compelling reasons to not continue within the MCU, otherwise in future movies you'd be asking "so why is Tony and Steve Rogers not helping?"

Steve was made too old to help, and Tony was killed as a sacrifice, which goes right back to The Avengers when Steve said to Tony that he would never be the one to put his life on the line.

Its called an arc, and a pretty consistent one at that.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

Ignoring the blatant foreshadowing in Infinity War that has already been mentioned, we can still look at the previous MCU movies and see that the Infinity Stones have always been dangerous to touch:

Captain America First Avengers - When Red Skull grabbed the Tesseract, he was "killed" and the the thing was shown to be so hot that it burned straight through the plane at the end.

Avengers - In the first scene, Fury quickly removed the Tesseract from the couplings and placed it in a briefcase. He was wearing gloves at the time but we see him blowing on his hand and wincing in pain despite that.

Thor: Dark World - The Aether infects Jane Foster and threatens to kill her. Odin mentions that mortals should not have this level of power within them. Mlekith ends up with the power and is able to survive due to being a powerful Dark Elf.

Guardians of the Galaxy - One of the Collector's assistants tries to grab the Orb and blows up. Later, Ronan grabs the Stone and screams in pain before shoving it in his hammer (Ronan is a powerful cyborg so he's a bit better at holding the Stone). At the end, Quill holds the Stone with the implication that he is only half human and the other half must be something powerful. Even then, the other Guardians have to help channel the energy so he doesn't die.

Guardians of the Galaxy 2 - It's revealed Quill is half Celestial. His dad mentions that a Terran wouldn't normally be able to hold the Stone which clued him in that it was his long lost son.

Avengers Age of Ultron - The Mind Stone was used in experiments by Hydra and it was mentioned that the energy from the Stone killed all the subjects except Wanda and Pietro Maximoff. The energy empowered them instead. There's an implication that there is something going on with their genetics that allowed them to survive.

Dr Strange - No one touches the Time Stone but Wong warns against using it too much because it could disrupt the natural order of things.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

Hawkeye, a human, holds the soul stone in his had.....!

Anyway, when the stones come together, you can control reality just by thinking about it. That means if you want to live and are controlling this thing, you can. You could wish yourself to be anything.

The movie has a giant plot hole due to this.

It's just a fact. The story violates the explained powers of the gauntlet.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

Hawkeye held the Soul Stone. The Soul Stone allows anyone to hold it so long as they kill someone they love. There's still a heavy toll to be paid to have it. Again, this is made clear in the two movies.

As for the Reality Stone, it has its limitations, as do they all. Did you notice that Thanos had to close his fist to use the Gauntlet for instance? Or that the effects of the Reality Stone were reversed after he left Nowhere? Just because you think there should be no limits, it doesn't mean there's a plothole.

reply

[–] NorrinRad (5008) 5 years ago

As for the Reality Stone, it has its limitations, as do they all. Did you notice that Thanos had to close his fist to use the Gauntlet for instance? Or that the effects of the Reality Stone were reversed after he left Nowhere? Just because you think there should be no limits, it doesn't mean there's a plothole.

Loki also told Thanos that he would never be a God (Big G or Little G, it doesn't matter) implying that the Stones would NOT make him all powerful? All of the Infinity Stones do not make the wearer or the holder or the user Omni-Potent, Omni-Present nor Omni-Scient in the MCU.

As Thanos acquires each stone (and we never see him acquire the Power Stone) we see him react in a physical way in apparently absorbing and or reacting to some type of energy that courses through his body. Regular humans probably would not be able to handle that type of energy from one stone let alone using all of the stones.

reply

[–] Dolemen (16) 5 years ago

I agree that Endgame breaks it's own rules by Hulk and Hawkeye both holding an Infinity Stone. I can let Hulk slide a bit based on the gamma comment in the film but Hawkeye should have exploded massively based on established rules in GOTG vol. 1.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

Yes.

Even if the stones apart are lethal, together they form a wish machine.

It makes no sense that something that brings massive reality altering wishes to life burns you alive.

It didn't in the comics. The comics were a long well thought out story about power and what one does with it. In this movie the glove was a plot device and that's it.

reply

[–] ExTechOp (2737) 5 years ago

The term "wish machine" is never used, even figuratively

And even wishes have limitations. Even in "Aladdin," a cartoon, the genie couldn't grant "more wishes" or resurrect the dead.

No reason why the stones shouldn't be limited as well. We were told Bruce tried to get Natasha back and couldn't. We saw that everyone using the "snap" got burned.

Lastly, I'd have to assume that despite Tony's genius, the dwarves of Nidavellir had superior technology, especially where the stones were concerned.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

Did you forget that Hawkeye earned the Soul Stone when Black Widow died?

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

That was a plot hole too.

Both wanted to commit suicide, not kill someone they loved.

Hawkeye didn't sacrifice her, she died of her own choice.

He shouldn't have gotten the stone at all.

She killed herself and if she "loved herself the most" then the stone would have gone to her, while dead. If she didn't love herself and committed suicide, she'd just be dead since that's not the rules of the stone.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

I must have missed the scene where Red Skull explained that suicide will not be a suitable human sacrifice.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

It isn't a human sacrifice.

You must sacrifice the soul of someone they love the most.

So, committing suicide would only work for some ultra narcissist, lol.

Also, trying to stop someone you love wouldn't work either as you aren't sacrificing them willingly.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

The rules are "A life for a life". As long as the person left alive loves the person who died, it's fair game.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

Buddy, that is not what it said in the the first movie.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

I stand corrected "A soul for a soul".

Red Skull doesn't say Thanos has to kill Gamora. He obviously does and she sure as shit wasn't gonna jump herself but Skull never says suicide was not an option.

reply

[–] EvilPinata (1186) 5 years ago

Though you can't compare the two stones in how they act because they're completely different. The one in GotG was the power stone and it alone could mow down civilization which would explain why it's so lethal. Why would the soul stone be lethal by itself?

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 5 years ago

Okay, in a movie where Nebula kills her younger self and walks away unchanged... THIS is what you're complaining about?

reply

[–] Dolemen (16) 5 years ago

Not the same Nebula, they can't change their own present. The Nebula that dies is from an alternate reality, "multi-verse"! If it were a singular timeline then yes, Nebula should have faded away.

reply

[–] ExTechOp (2737) 5 years ago

This leaves Dr. Strange without the time stone going forward, though, doesn't it?

reply

[–] Dolemen (16) 5 years ago

Correct, all stones are destroyed. It will be interesting to see where they go with this in the next Strange film.

reply

[–] Otter (24464) 5 years ago

Dr. Strange will be fine without the Time Stone, he's still got his top-level magical powers and his bitch-slapping cape. He just can't get out of any future scrapes by turning back time, which is good as it doesn't allow his writers to repeat themselves.

I'm very much looking forward to "Strange 2", BTW. He's fun!

reply

[–] ExTechOp (2737) 5 years ago

I used to read Strange way back in the day

The Eye of Agamotto was part of his iconic attire, as far as I recall. Maybe he'll reconstruct it and actually use it as an "eye" like the comic version

Hopefully he doesn't switch to ballet tights for pants

reply

[–] TheReccher (343) 5 years ago

Wrong. In order to use the power to 'do whatever they want' (which is questionable because it was never technically stated its power is infinite), they first have to gain control of the gauntlet.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

It's called The Infinity Gauntlet for a reason.

Thanos simply wishes for all half of all living things in the universe to vanish, and they do, so come on.

There is nothing that says one has to gain control of the stones.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

He doesn't simply wish for it to happen. He has to snap his fingers.

reply

[–] GreenGoblinsOck8 (7390) 5 years ago

This isn't a plothole but Cap telling all those Hydra guys, "Hail Hydra." when he goes back to the time of the first Avengers movie, could lead to problems later and effects the very plot of Winter Soldier.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

Yeah, not a plot hole.

That is unless it would be out of character for Cap not to think about the rules he was told just to accomplish a task.

If you believe he wouldn't forget, then it's a plot hole.

Not major though.

reply

[–] EvilPinata (1186) 5 years ago

With that logic, then wouldn't it be a plot hole that the reality stone alone couldn't wipe out half the universe? Can you explain that without saying using the comics as an excuse? I think it makes more sense that they take a physical toll on the user because of what you can do with them.

If your gripe is how the reality stone works, we know that it can hurt the person in contact with it because of when the aether inhabited Jane.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

Firstly, the comics are the source material. What the glove does is epic and important to the story. If you make it not work, then it's not epic any more and the story is ruined.

Really, they did ruin the story because once Thanos got what he wanted in the comics, he didn't care to use it anymore. I am reminded of back in the old days of videogames when you could enter cheat codes and be unkillable. It seems like it would make games more fun because you could just play them through, but mostly in made me give up because it was boring.

That was the message of the source material.

But anyway, regarding the movie, the glove granted a wish that changed the entire universe. There was never anything that said the wearer wasn't affected by the wish purpose of the glove. It was never said that if you put that glove on it will kill you. Not all the stones killed regular people.

So, the filmmakers defied the logic of the glove so they could kill off characters. That's a PLOT DEVICE and I posted the wiki definition of a plot device here. It said exactly what happened in this film, making the film cliched and unoriginal.

Meanwhile, the source material was VERY original showing the "bad guy" being not so bad because he reflected on his world domination and wasn't happy with it. That's not typical of fictional bad guys.

In this film, Thanos didn't have an intelligent character arch like that.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

Dude, how many times are you going to whine about things in the movie that were explicitly conveyed to the audience? You obviously have not been paying attention to the past ten years worth of movies. That's not the fault of the filmmakers, that's your fault.

You keep babbling about the comics but even in the comics, the Reality Gem was not that powerful on its own. There's a reason why Thanos needed the five other Gems. Hell, in the original Infinity Gauntlet story, Thanos lost the gauntlet because he had embodied Eternity and left his physical body behind, which meant Nebula had an easy time walking over to him and yanking it off. Going by your logic, Nebula should not have been able to remove the gauntlet because of the Reality Gem.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

I don't know who you're talking to.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

Did you get a notification that someone responded to your post?

Did you notice that my post is right under yours?

Did you notice how I'm talking about things that you brought up?

Figure it out.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

Your post makes no sense.

So, try again.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

It makes perfect sense if you've read the comics which I have a sneaking suspicion you have not.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

What you posted has nothing to do with the plot hole of this film.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

You are the one who keeps bringing up the comics so I figured you might want to talk about them. It’s interesting that you have mentioned the comics in almost every post and the moment someone engages with you about them, you suddenly don’t want to talk about them. It’s almost if you have never actually read the comics and you were hoping to sound knowledgable by pretending that you had.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

What you said has nothing to do with the function of the gauntlet though.

I don't understand you point in relation to how the glove functions in the movie.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

You brought up the comics dude. Not me.

reply

[–] EvilPinata (1186) 5 years ago

I don't need the film to tell me that using the most powerful item in the universe is going to take a toll on someone. I'd be more surprised if it didn't. As others said, this isn't the comics. It's inspired by the comics, but it's more of its own universe which is why Civil War wasn't as huge as it was in the comics and Thanos' motivation in Infinity War wasn't to impress lady Death. Just because it lacks similarity to the comics doesn't mean it's a plot hole.

Regardless, you're not changing your thought process so we'll just agree to disagree.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

Your thought process is clouded by your desire to see this story as quality, when it's not.

IT LITERALLY IS THE DEFINITION OF A PLOT DEVICE ON WIKI. Thus, it's not me, it's you.

The logic of a device that grants wishes means it would not cost the user anything. The glove isn't alive like a devil or genie trying to trick you, it's bascialy a wish machine. It should not be able to hurt you unless you subconsciously want it to.

But, as I've said, if you look up the definition of plot device the example is this movie plot. I'm sure wiki didn't just enter that either.

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

The gauntlet does not grant wishes. Once again, you do not understand the movies you are watching.

Additionally, even in literature, there are many examples of wish fullfilling devices or characters that always come with a price or at least some caveats. Off the top of my head, there's Monkey's Paw, the genie from Aladdin (Disney cartoon or original folk story, take your pick), and the villain from the Wishmaster movie series.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

It does not allow you to do whatever you want. Therefore, it does not grant wishes.

You think the Stones are all powerful and yet, even before Thanos, every villain who used the Stones in previous movies were beaten. Ronan had the PowerStone and all the Guardians had to do was blow his hammer up and get the Stone for themselves. Malekith had the Reality Stone and Thor beat him with a little help from his scientist friends. Loki had the Mind Stone and yet, his mind control abilities were blocked by Tony Stark's arc-reactor. And while Vision wasn't a villain, the Mind Stone did not stop him from losing fights.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

Take it up with the people who have been making these movies for the past ten years. They are the ones who set very clear limits of what they are and are not capable. You just were not paying attention for some reason.

reply

[–] EvilPinata (1186) 5 years ago

Again though, why couldn't just the reality stone alone be used to erase half of all life if it allows the one controlling it to do whatever it wants?

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

I guess reality is "now" like what's in existence now.

Meanwhile, the soul stone can bring people back from the dead, create life, and the time stone controls what isn't now, and so forth.

reply

[–] ExTechOp (2737) 5 years ago

Now you're just making up your own powers for these stones

NOTHING in the films even remotely suggests the stones and/or gauntlet create a "wishing machine"

That's all you

The films say exactly the opposite - using the stones for anything requires great power and incurs terrible risk

reply

[–] wickerman1271 (940) 5 years ago

Each stone has a definite power , the Reality stone allows you to have control over reality , it i shown in IW when Thanos uses it when confronted by the Guardians , the Time stone allows you to rewind or fast forward time , the Soul stone allows you to have control of souls hence you can take souls from living beings or put souls back into bodies of dead beings , and so on , combined together the stones allows the user to do whatever the user wants , it's not that hard to get.

reply

[–] ExTechOp (2737) 5 years ago

"Use requires payment" is another concept, also not hard to get

Besides, HUGE changes to reality have been shown temporary/illusory. Otherwise, Thanos could've left Titan in its "paradise" form when he was talking to Strange

Why can't the stones' energy surge be counteracted by the stones themselves, for example? You and TheAdlerian would say that it should be possible. The film SHOWS us that this is not the case.

Bottom line, it's an internally consistent dramatic trope: using great power incurs great cost.

To use that power to negate the cost would be (A) dramatically unsatisfying and (B) beyond the scope of the film's internal logic.

You two and TheAdlerian have to separate YOUR ideas of what the stones can do from the FILM's actual demonstrations of what the stones can do.

reply

[–] wickerman1271 (940) 5 years ago

I'm not sure where did you get that "use requires payement" line from , they never say that in the movies.
Anyway

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Infinity_Gauntlet_(Item)

It says " the infinity gems when used in combination make the wearer able to make anything they want" in this case want means also wish

It also says the infinity gauntlet grants nigh OMNIPOTENCE to its wearer , the Reality gem alone locally or universally alters the natural laws of the universe to the wielders will , so it should be impossible for the wielder to die.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

It's inconsistent to have a wishing machine that puts you in charge of creation have a cost that would equal you not being alive to be in charge of creation.

This discussion in moronic.

I posted this before and if you don't acknowledge that this is exactly what happens in this film, you're just being delusional.

Plot Device wiki:

"Many stories, especially in the fantasy genre, feature an object or objects with some great power. Often what drives the plot is the hero's need to find the object and use it for good, before the villain can use it for evil, or if the object has been broken by the villains, to retrieve each piece that must be gathered from each antagonist to restore it, or, if the object itself is evil, to destroy it. In some cases destroying the object will lead to the destruction of the villain."

The comics wasn't a cliched plot hole but this movie is, which is a disappointment.

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ExTechOp (2737) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ExTechOp (2737) 5 years ago

That was your ONLY fucking point

You're citing comic books for rules that the movies, all 22 of them, never set forth.

You're raging about movies failing to follow comic books ... you DO realize that don't you?

Seems to me THAT's extremely fucking stupid

Tell you what, though, cite ONE movie out of all 22 that agrees with you, and you win. Just ONE movie that says or even IMPLIES "magic wishing machine"

Because I can cite numerous references showing that the stones, while powerful, extract a heavy toll on their wielders, and NOTHING to suggest that toll can be "reimbursed" by the reality stone

Ask Malekith if he got his money back why doncha?

reply

[–] wickerman1271 (940) 5 years ago

It's fucking stupid to change the rules from the comics to use them as a plot device , the writers of this movie are just morons and i hope they never get hired again

reply

[–] ExTechOp (2737) 5 years ago

I'm sure McFeely and Markus are just quaking in their boots

Boots of finest leather made from the skins of Jack Kirby's own impoverished descendants no doubt

reply

[–] AP (5256) 5 years ago

Up above you said the comics don’t matter and now here you are once again crying about comics.

And no, this movie does not contradict a single thing in the previous movies. Ever since the first Captain America movie, it has been established that the Stones are dangerous to use. This was all building up to Tony’s death. All rules were followed. Just because you think rules should not apply, it doesn’t make it a plothole.

You are dying on this hill dude.

reply

[–] cyberbob (3488) 5 years ago

According to the MCU wiki of the reality stone (the premise upon which your entire argument is placed):

"As the Infinity Stone that represents and governs over reality, the Reality Stone grants its user absolute control over reality itself. However, like all other Infinity Stones, due to it being the most powerful artifact in existence, it can only be wielded by beings of sufficient power and inside beings of no powers, it will inevitably kill them, as evidenced with Jane Foster."

So it was established since way back in Thor 2, that just because you have the reality stone does not mean that you can wield it without being harmed. Tony Stark is a being of no powers, thus he was killed, same as Jane Foster was going to die in Thor 2. You can control reality, but only if you are strong enough. Apparently not even Thanos is strong enough to wield it, along with 5 whole other fucking Infinity Stones that are also difficult to wield, without it causing some harm (relatively little considering how much power he was wielding)

It was never established in the MCU that just because you have the reality stone that you cannot be harmed. This is just your assumption, based on the comic books, which are a totally different thing from the movie. If you're gonna bitch about every change made from the comics in the MCU, then you will be making threads for years. They've been doing it since Iron Man 1

It's not a plot hole, you're just too stubborn to accept that the stone does not work the way you want it to work

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

HOLY FUCK!!!

It's not about the fucking Reality Stone, but the Gauntlet, or all the stones together.

With that you have a wish machine that could not kill you because you would wish it wasn't happening and become whatever needed for it to stop.

AS I HAVE BEEN FUCKING SAYING....this movie is the literal definition of a plot hole as it uses a plot device to end the story. The definition of plot device on wiki has an example which is the exact story in this movie.

The comics handled it without doing that and created a richer more meaningful story

reply

[–] cyberbob (3488) 5 years ago

You keep talking about the ability to control reality. That is the reality stone, duh.

The infinity gauntlet was never described in any movie as a "wish machine". You're just making assumptions or making shit up, I don't know which, but you're wrong. End of story

The comics created a bodily personification of "death" as a hot woman. The movies couldn't adapt the story as it is because some parts of it were stupid as fuck

reply

[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] cyberbob (3488) 5 years ago

[deleted]